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Post by ccscoach on Apr 2, 2006 18:10:07 GMT -6
I am not a high school teacher but coach at the high school level.... I am certified to coach in my state. I think I am fairly qualified in that i played and was all conference in college. I have been an assistant coach(oline) for the past 7 years and our offensive coordinator for the past 4. We have been successful with five conference championships and back to back state championship the past 2 season. Our head coach took the defensive Coordinator position at a local college. The AD told me that because I don't work as a teacher I would not get an interveiw for the coaching position and that since the new head coach will more the likely want to bring in his own people i would not be retained as an assistant. I will be coaching my nephews Pee- Wee team this upcoming season because of this. Has anyone gone through anything like this before? I would like too become a head coach someday but fear because I'm not a teacher I fear this won't happen. I have a bachelors degree in Human Services and am a case worker for the state. I think that I may have to go back to school and get my teaching certification. Just wondering if anyone has gone through anything like this before.
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mike13
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by mike13 on Apr 2, 2006 19:08:22 GMT -6
coach have you thought of getting your masters in guidance counseling? this would allow you to get into the school system. All head coaches in my county must be either teachers or guidance counselor.
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Post by ccscoach on Apr 2, 2006 19:31:58 GMT -6
thought about it but idk if i have the grades to get accepted in a program you think i would be able to get in non- matriculated
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Post by benchwarmer on Apr 2, 2006 19:50:48 GMT -6
Coach, I am not a teacher either yet I have been fortunate enough to coach at the High School level for 27 years with my 10th year as Head Coach coming up. What has helped me is I am in a small school (Single A) It is very hard to find coaches here, on my staff I have 1 school teacher on Varsity and 2 school teachers on Jr. High. Alot of it is the school's philosophy along with what the state's rules are. People say how have you been able to coach for 27 years without being a teacher? Fortunately my employer allows me to switch my hours plus we have been able to be somewhat successful on the field. I imagine it is much easier to be a coach if I was in the school but I don't know any other way. Hang in there!
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rig
Freshmen Member
Posts: 24
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Post by rig on Apr 3, 2006 10:18:53 GMT -6
I am also not a teacher. I have found it hard to find jobs in the past. Even with OC and DC experience, some people will not touch me because I am not a teacher. I have taken volunteer positions even when I was OC and DC because the paid positions went to teachers. I have gone back to school to be a teacher. I actually want to be a teacher and not just use it to coach. With your experience someone out there will take you even if just as a volunteer. Keep coaching as long as you still have a passion for it and helping young men grow. Good Luck.
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Post by lochness on Apr 3, 2006 10:52:35 GMT -6
I don't know. I always felt that way too, but I was one of two finalists for a HC position in my state, and I am not a teacher. Also, in our division right now, a coach who is not a teacher just ripped off 2 consecutive undefeated championship seasons.
I for one think that there are advantages to being a teacher, but the reality of it is that good coaches are a rare commodity, and not always are they teachers. Schools should hire the best people for the job, period.
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Post by brophy on Apr 3, 2006 10:57:40 GMT -6
does the POLITICS of the hiring process (committee) turn anyone else sour to this business of HS athletics?
I'm in the same boat, people.
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Post by carson101 on Apr 4, 2006 7:42:00 GMT -6
I am not a school teacher but have been able to get a coaching gig both as a hc and assistant in high school it does depend on where you coach and who your boss is my experience has spoken for me in the last 12 yrs of coaching. Most schools do prefer a teacher but many coaches are lucky enough to get a hc gig without the cert. Good luck Coach.
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3nout
Freshmen Member
SkinskillBoyz
Posts: 34
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Post by 3nout on Apr 4, 2006 10:03:37 GMT -6
Coach, Two Points First, It all depend on the State and School district. They are all different..some you must certified...some you dont.(Although most you must at least have a BA...which you already have) I am not a "certified" teacher but I work in the school system as an IA.I have blessed enough to have been an HC and DC for all 3 levels. I have been coaching for almost 8 ys.In our system it allows you to become a HC without becoming a teacher. Now keep in mind that it is critical that you are in the building as a HC! So you must find some way to either work in the school or adjust your work schedule so that you can be present during the school day. That is going to be the first reason for you not to be considered!!!!! The schools also want to fill a teaching or dept chair vacancy at the same time. You also have to consider how far as a carreer you want to take coaching?If you plan just to stay at the high school rank then get all of your certs in order so your are some what on the same playing field as everyone else or move/coach to a state/district whos requirnments you can meet.
Second Becoming a HC is no joke you are going to have to "grind" my friend.I too played the game after HS but very few people become HC without earning dues. You just might have to go to a position as "volunteer" or coach at a smaller school that needs help. Find a program with an HC that has been successful and learn what you can!!! Keep coaching..improving your playes and your coaching skills. Get involved with coaching association.coach youth camps/leagues...attend seminars and college clinics..network with other coaches. The more you learn now, puts you in a better position as a HC.
Dont get feel bad..that wont be the last time that an AD/Pricipal shoots you down.Some already have a replacment in mind,So they feel that an interview with you is a waste of both of your times. I have had a ton of crap served up to me by AD/Pricipals about vacancies:)The interview process in another beast in itself!!!!
What ever you do don't give up on the game and the relationships with the players we only have as coaches. There is no greater reward as a person than becoming a blessing to someone else!!!!!!
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 5, 2006 17:54:07 GMT -6
OK... well I'll come at this from the administrative perspective... I would much rather hire a teacher to coach than a coach who is out of the building. There are so many advantages to having a coach in the building- discipline issues, players needing to discuss something for any reason, media contacts, parental issues, etc... That being said, we have 10 sports here- 3 of my coaches are out of building and all have 1) a solid background of playing (though only one played in college), 2) have paid their dues as assistants, 3) live in the community and know the school/school policies and 4) are clearly the best for the job. I agree with Brophy RE: the politics and since I am an "old" coach more than a new administrator, I'd like to see myself as clear thinking. But I can not get beyond the fact that being in the building gives a clear advantage... but it is not the only issue at hand when it comes to the hiring process. P.S. on my FB staff, 2 in building, 4 out of building (1 is a retired teacher who still subs.)
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coachbronk
Sophomore Member
[F4:@coachbronk]
Posts: 249
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Post by coachbronk on Apr 10, 2006 8:24:20 GMT -6
I have read all your posts, I am curious as to what states some of you are from?
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Post by brophy on Apr 10, 2006 8:31:18 GMT -6
At the last program I was at in Iowa, the demographics of the staff were; HC - BD teacher at HS DC (LBs) - non teacher / private sector OC (OL) - MS teacher in feeder program DL- out of district MS teacher DB- ROTC instructor at school WR- non teacher / private sector RB- Middle school court liason Soph HC / DC (vars DB) - ROTC instructor at school Soph OC (vars WR)- non teacher / private sector Soph DL - non teacher / private sector Soph LB - non teacher / private sector Freshman HC/OC - teacher at HS Fresh DC - non teacher / private sector Fresh Assistant - non teacher / private sector
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Post by jim322ps on Apr 14, 2006 12:47:49 GMT -6
Looking in as a parent of 4 that have gone to 3 public schools in our area and all 4 are now out. I would not want to be involved in all the bullcrap that is the public school system of today. My opinion is that most teachers/coaches/administrative personal are only concerned with themselves and not the kids or their education. I will stay at the youth level, enjoy the kids and coaching them. Sorry but I call it as I see it. Jim
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2006 12:58:47 GMT -6
If that is your opinion then staying where you are seems like a darn good fit.
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coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
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Post by coachf on Apr 14, 2006 13:16:13 GMT -6
I think it is terrible that people who have a serious interest are not afforded an opportunity if they don't teach. Our school gives every teacher an interview if they want the job, but it doesn't matter in the final decision. If the person is outside of the school they have just as great a shot. In fact, in my school most teachers do not go for the jobs because they worry about getting fired before they are tenured.
Politics suck, bottom line, but we have to keep doing it and work through it.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 14, 2006 14:19:44 GMT -6
OK... well as a DW guy and an administrator, I'm used to being attacked. Unlike some administrators I have a spine (and a temper)... so a few responses are in order:
My opinion is that most teachers/coaches/administrative personal are only concerned with themselves and not the kids or their education
I heard this line almost word for word from a parent a few months ago. Without going in to detail, this family has screwed up their kid to a point where I think he has no future other than prison... they forced him to quit football during the week of the quarterfinals, sent him to live with relatives... now he is back (apparently WE weren't the problem) and again I am helping him train and letting him play football again as long as specific procedures are followed. this whole thing really p***** me off because from the start of last summer, this kid had made huge strides (grades improved, he lost 20 lbs. of fat, etc.)... and these people had the audacity and stupidity make him quit what was working and then went on to say that "we don't care". Personal responsibility is really a thing of the past. Jim, I call them as I see them too... and there are a lot more people like me in this profession than the selfish, apathetic slugs you describe. For what it is worth, I see a lot of jaded, bitter parents/youth coaches whose myopic interest in their own gratification through the exploits of their children reduces their intellectual abilities to that of plant life. Are there bad teachers/coaches? Yes. Are there bad parents, bad youth coaches... bad priests? Yes, yes, yes. There are a lot of good ones too though.
Rather than coming out on the Internet and making a rather baseless claim on that seems to stem from disappointment and bitterness and directing it toward the 80% of us on here who are coaches and educators, do something to fix the problem. You said earlier that the HS in your area has had 12 winning seasons in 14... so winning is not the problem. What is? What can you do to eliminate the problem? Blasting us (me) on the Internet probably won't cut it... you might want to try something else.
No one in their right mind would argue that any unrelated vocation (teaching) gives a better background or basis to coach football (or basketball,etc.) than any other unrelated vocation (private business). However, the Federal and State Governments have several restrictions... mostly because we are so lawsuit happy as a society that schools have no choice but to follow mandates. Coaches have to be certified- in our state that requires 8 specific credit hours and a test (none of this is hard, but does require a plan of about a year to get it done if you didn't take all of those courses in college).
I've been in this profession long enough that I think I know what makes a good coach. Where you work (school or elsewhere) has nothing to do with it, but being in the school certainly gives a person an advantage. This is a people business... it is advantageous to be around those people. It is advantageous, but not a requirement- as I said, we have 3 head coaches from out of the building and they do an outstanding job, but I do have to take care of some of their day to day responsibilities (discipline issues, some organizational stuff, media contacts, replacement orders), which I don't mind... but they tell me themselves that they would rather be here so they could take care of some of those things (ex: I may handle something in a way other than they would).
Coaching jobs should go to the most qualified applicant. Whether someone is in the building or out of the building certainly is part of that equation, but it is not the determining factor.
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coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
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Post by coachf on Apr 14, 2006 15:04:21 GMT -6
senator, you speak truth. Good post!
One thing you made me think of when I read it. Coaching and teaching go hand in hand. A good teacher usually can be a good coach and vice versa. What we do is not concerning ourselves only. I enjoy passing knowledge. I want to see my kids kick the crap out of the national testing just as much as I want them to kick the crap out of a conference opponent. If I didn't coach I would still teach. That is what I am. I coach because I love it, but I never would have been in this position without teaching.
Jim, most teachers and coaches are there for the kids. There is a small minority that makes the rest look bad. It is just like church. Most people are good and practice what they preach, it is the hypocrites that give it a bad name.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 14, 2006 16:14:44 GMT -6
Just throwing out a thought here...does the involvement of non faculty in athletics take away from the extra curricular nature of H.S. sports, and spin it into more of a co-curricular light?
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Post by jim322ps on Apr 14, 2006 17:01:16 GMT -6
Senator I am not making a baseless claim, I am telling it as I have seen it. My 2 oldest daughters are both college graduates (both with 4 year degrees) and married with kids. my son is just finishing his 1st year at trade school and my middle daughter is working so all my kids are trying to be usefull parts of the community so I have no reason to be bitter as my kids and family are my priority. The HS's personal had very little to do with my kids success as the principle of the HS was a drunk with no drivers license but the superentendent was his friend, I have had teachers lie about my kids to my face. If you are on the inside of a school system you have a chance to make chages but as a parent most everyone in the school treats you like a leper or an idiot if you dare to question them, kind of like you just did. BTW, I have zero desire to coach HS but I know plenty of great guys who would do a great job if they had a chance. Jim Ps - your post was very good
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 14, 2006 17:59:31 GMT -6
as a parent most everyone in the school treats you like a leper or an idiot if you dare to question them Coaches, administrators and government officials all work in a field where over 99% of the general public does not know what goes in to the job, and 99% will criticize them. I'm not arguing that there are not bad people in this or any profession... that's an argument I can not win. The blanket statement "most teachers/coaches/administrative personal are only concerned with themselves" is where I took exception... I've had some bad parents too... but it is wrong to say all are bad (though I've probably said that when really mad).
I have a pretty open relationship with our parents (small school)... I have no problem being questioned. I do have a problem being attacked; if that is not what you intended then I was at fault for a misinterpretation.
This discussion got me to thinking... about 12 years ago I looked in to some college jobs... all required a Masters Degree, which I did not have at the time. If I had decided that my goal was to be a college coach, then I would have had to follow their requirements, just like someone who wants to be a high school coach. Of course, there are exceptions, but the surest way to get a foot in the door is by following the prescribed regulations.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 14, 2006 18:12:36 GMT -6
Just throwing out a thought here...does the involvement of non faculty in athletics take away from the extra curricular nature of H.S. sports, and spin it into more of a co-curricular light?
coach d, This may just be a matter of semantics, but we call all of our sports "co-curricular" as they have educational value like music and the fine arts. My view of co-curricular is "in conjunction with academics", extracurricular to me then is "in addition to".
I take your question to be one of school control over athletics, and I don't want to start the topic on this thread about moving sports to a club level... but that would be a sad day in America if schools lost athletics. Athletes get a wealth of knowledge and experience from sports; some get scholarships but most "just get" invaluable lessons that stay with them for life they could get from no where else. Could you get that outside of the schools? I suppose, but would there be any accountability? (I can't believe I'm using the "A" word) I don't see it much in club volleyball or club soccer.
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Post by blb on Apr 14, 2006 18:18:22 GMT -6
Yep, jim322ps, and all doctors are quacks; all lawyers are shysters; all tradesmen are lazy, overcharging, butt-cleaveged buffoons; all politicians are self-serving crooks; all priests are sexual predators; auto mechanics are all incompetent cheats; all policemen are on the take; all pro athletes are spoiled prima donnas; and all Nebraskans are dim-witted, corn-fed hicks.
How easy a world view! Narrow, bitter, cynical, ill-informed...
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 14, 2006 18:24:42 GMT -6
all Nebraskans are dim-witted, corn-fed hicks
49 other states out there and you just HAD to pick on us...
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Post by phantom on Apr 14, 2006 18:38:21 GMT -6
Wow, Senator. You really did learn something during those seven years at Faber. You've given me a new-found respect for (some) administrators.
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Post by blb on Apr 14, 2006 18:47:37 GMT -6
Sorry, Bluto...I was operating under the erroneous impression that our antagonist is from Nebraska. A thousand pardons.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 14, 2006 18:55:47 GMT -6
Bluto
I wasn't advancing my line of thought that quickly, but it did end up there. As the proflieration of non faculty coaches increases, isn't the next logical step a complete assimilatoin of HS sports into the club realm? (20 or so years from now?)
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Post by jim322ps on Apr 14, 2006 19:08:17 GMT -6
<<<Yep, jim322ps, and all doctors are quacks; all lawyers are shysters; all tradesmen are lazy, overcharging, butt-cleaveged buffoons; all politicians are self-serving crooks; all priests are sexual predators; auto mechanics are all incompetent cheats; all policemen are on the take; all pro athletes are spoiled prima donnas; and all Nebraskans are dim-witted, corn-fed hicks
How easy a world view! Narrow, bitter, cynical, ill-informed...>>>>>
I knew I was going to get some people fired up but I am tired of hearing about how teachers are untouchable once they get tenure. All these occupations that you have up there don't get a free pass where no matter how lousy of a job they do they can't be fired. If I was a teacher I would be against tenure because I would want to be graded on my merit but all the times I have discussed this with teachers they all "need" tenure. I also have never said all are bad but if you feel you are a good one, when was the last time you helped get rid of a lousy teacher......ever......ya, i thought so. Jim
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Post by blb on Apr 14, 2006 19:42:16 GMT -6
When have you? I suggest you run for the school board in your community and become part of the solution instead of "sitting on the sidelines" disparaging caring professionals.
And do you think teachers are the only ones who have unions? What about businesses where people are hired and kept on because they're family or buddies, regardless of ability or professionalism?
Great thing about America - everybody has the right to rise to the level of their own incompetence. Especially those who want to criticize the educational system. Tell me - if it's so bad, why are we still the leading power in the world?
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Post by jim322ps on Apr 14, 2006 20:16:02 GMT -6
Nice way to deflect the question without answering it. I work, raised 4 kids and have been involved as a volunteer in cub scouts (4 years), boy scouts, coached both girls and boys baseball (6 years) and 11 years as a football coach and I think I have helped the kids in my community. I am not talking about unions I am talking about TENURE, no reason for it. My Father-in-law was a teacher and he could tell you much better than I about how the public school system is failing our kids but he is dead, kinda like the public school systym. He hated the school system so much that he went to a Catholic school at 1/3rd the pay so he could teach and not deal with the bs. I guess you are right we are the greatest and will stay the greatest no matter how poorly educated our kids are. The last 10 years prove your point. Can we do it for 20??? only time will tell. IMHO Jim
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coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
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Post by coachf on Apr 14, 2006 20:33:44 GMT -6
wait a sec...we need tenure or else they can fire us for any reason they want. After tenure they at least have to give a reason. The teacher I took the place of was fired because our principal thought she had a bad personality. She was one of the more popular teachers in the school. It is also good to get tenure so you are not evaluated 6 times a year like I am right now. '
Believe me, I am not a big fan of unions, especially the NEA (who loves to spend our money on lobbyists with agendas). But in the land of teachers all it takes is one jerk in the community with power to get rid of a great teacher. It just happened to our head coach. And I have been warned not to take the HC position because it can happen to me. If I had 4 years in and tenure I would be able to take the job and have some kind of a fighting chance.
We are at the mercy of more than just "a" boss. We have thousands, most of whom value us more as a babysitter than a teacher. When we have people talk about us like you do it just increases the lack of disrespect we get. There are always going to be bad teachers and believe me, we let the administration know about it, but there is nothing I can do as a teacher. Plus, I really feel that other than bringing up concerns it is terribly rude and hypocritical, not to mention a complete backstabbing when we try to get a colleague fired. When you are pointing the finger, four more point back at you. The last thing I want is to jeopardize my situation by being "holier than thou."
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