mce86
Junior Member
Posts: 281
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Post by mce86 on Jun 28, 2006 15:52:19 GMT -6
This has left an extremely sour taste in my mouth... Kicked a kid out of weight training and then he wanted to fight me....I had to wrestle him down, at which point he said he would be back at some point to shoot me. Anyone have this kind of nonsense happen? He is one of those kids who is never around, and when he is he is obvioulsy cancerous.
Anyone go through anything like this? It makes me sick to my stomach to have gone through something like that...makes me wonder if I am in the right place....e.g. losing program, low-income community...
It has really taken some wind from my sails for the upcoming season...any suggestions?
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Post by cqmiller on Jun 28, 2006 15:56:38 GMT -6
No room on the team for kids like that...A serious NO-NO is getting physical with a coach. In the professional world (where 99% of high school kids will be in 3-5 years), you cannot physically confront a superior at ANY job.
The kid probably learned the behavior from his household, if you sit him down and give him a second chance, then make sure he understands ANY OUTBURST (physical OR verbal) will result in removal from the team. Put it in writing too, so he or his parents can't come back and sue, or whatever.
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Post by coachcalande on Jun 28, 2006 16:11:12 GMT -6
You shouldnt have to worry about that kid if you contact the authorities right away,. terroristic threats are taken very seriously nowadays, especially when its a student! I hope you took immediate action and documented everything, witnesses too as these things can escalate in a hurry. call the superintendent and principal right away, and the cops. This has left an extremely sour taste in my mouth... Kicked a kid out of weight training and then he wanted to fight me....I had to wrestle him down, at which point he said he would be back at some point to shoot me. Anyone have this kind of nonsense happen? He is one of those kids who is never around, and when he is he is obvioulsy cancerous. Anyone go through anything like this? It makes me sick to my stomach to have gone through something like that...makes me wonder if I am in the right place....e.g. losing program, low-income community... It has really taken some wind from my sails for the upcoming season...any suggestions?
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mce86
Junior Member
Posts: 281
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Post by mce86 on Jun 28, 2006 16:42:43 GMT -6
I was talking to the police and school security within minutes of the incident... I guess I feel like if I didnt try to discipline the kid, it wouldnt of happened....now that it did, I am second guessing the atmosphere of the kids...even though I know that 99.8% would never consider doing what this kid did, the fact that it happened is so discouraging...especially when I put in so much time with these kids...I don't like having to have a physical confrontation...I didnt get into coaching for that...I just felt my safety was being threatened...and I have never seen a player act that way with a coach (outside of semi-pro football that is) Any advice on getting past this? What do would you do if you were about to be attacked by a kid like this?
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 28, 2006 18:13:42 GMT -6
I agree with Coach Calande. I had a situation while coaching baseball about 8 years ago where a kid went ballistic during a game and embarassed the whole school let alone the baseball program. When the decision to remove him was made he stormed at me the next day we practiced and got in my face. I moved to a different location to have this talk.
During the conversation he said, "baseball is my life. How would you like it if someone took your life away from you?". At that point the conversation ended.
I did NOT go to the authorities with this. I thought the school would handle things and remove him. NOPE!! A measily suspension. Nothing was done even after his father came to practice a week later saying that his son could "kick me ass if he wanted to". I moved out of the area a few months later (not because of the incident, but a better job opportunity came around).
I learned that I should have went to the authorities and pressed charges. I took two days off of school and my principal at the time threatened ME with saying I wasn't sick and that I was just taking days off. He was going to make ME pay for those days. Until I got the school district lawyer involved.
This was all in my first year of teaching. There was much more to this story that is too long to type.
Bottomline do everything you can to show that this behavior cannot be tolerated. Press charges if he is 18. Do everything. That is what I would do if I could do it over.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 28, 2006 18:26:01 GMT -6
Been in somewhat similar situation its heartbreaking and disappointing. 13-14 year olds, kids wil not do what hes asked, wont hutstle, told to run , wont, told to sit down wont, told to leave , wont. Tells the head coach " You cant run faster than a bullet" Coach quit and I called mom to turn in the kids gear. The kid 3 years later in in Boot Camp in Arizona. Zero tolerance on physical threats, it hs not happened again and we are 4 years since then.
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Post by coachcalande on Jun 28, 2006 20:19:16 GMT -6
well, you have to avoid hands on to the best of your ability...as i said, be sure its documented and be sure to get the name of the guys you reported it to and most importantly follow up right away...if this was a minor you could end up in a law suit and it will run your coaching career. protect yourself. get witnesses to put something in writing for the principal...and take the threat very seriously, even in a fit of rage if a kid says something about a gun hes gone, suspended from school...if school is out there will be some sort of juvy time and perhaps mental hospital time for the boy id guess. i worked in mental health for a long time, the most dangerous people are the ones with nothing to lose. this kid sounds like hes lost alot somewhere...follow what im saying...take no chances, protect yourself, the rest of the staff and team by pushing hard for severe consequences for the boy...WHAT YOU TOLERATE YOU ENCOURAGE. Id be absolute positive that the AD, principal, cops, security guard, superintendent and the kids parents knew exactly what happened, what was said, what you did, etc...details of facts, not opinions too. facts are what matters when charges are pressed by either side. I was talking to the police and school security within minutes of the incident... I guess I feel like if I didnt try to discipline the kid, it wouldnt of happened....now that it did, I am second guessing the atmosphere of the kids...even though I know that 99.8% would never consider doing what this kid did, the fact that it happened is so discouraging...especially when I put in so much time with these kids...I don't like having to have a physical confrontation...I didnt get into coaching for that...I just felt my safety was being threatened...and I have never seen a player act that way with a coach (outside of semi-pro football that is) Any advice on getting past this? What do would you do if you were about to be attacked by a kid like this?
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Post by coachcalande on Jun 28, 2006 20:22:20 GMT -6
additionally, you said "i guess i feel if i didnt try to discipline the kid it wouldnt have happened...not to you, probably to someone else! discipline is just what that boy needs...do it for him...not to him. if you do it FOR HIM now, you might really make a meaningful impact on this mans life and others...goes way beyond football. kid has no respect for self or authority if hes ready to fight his coach and makes terroristic threats. needs help, needs intervention, needs discipline.... I was talking to the police and school security within minutes of the incident... I guess I feel like if I didnt try to discipline the kid, it wouldnt of happened....now that it did, I am second guessing the atmosphere of the kids...even though I know that 99.8% would never consider doing what this kid did, the fact that it happened is so discouraging...especially when I put in so much time with these kids...I don't like having to have a physical confrontation...I didnt get into coaching for that...I just felt my safety was being threatened...and I have never seen a player act that way with a coach (outside of semi-pro football that is) Any advice on getting past this? What do would you do if you were about to be attacked by a kid like this?
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Post by bulldog on Jun 28, 2006 22:55:50 GMT -6
Great advice Coach Calande. MCE - Never underestimate the litigiousness of our society. You'd be amazed at what lawyers can do with a case even when you are 100% right. And never assume that others (your admin) will do what's right, instead assume that they will do what's easy (or less costly). Protect yourself - even if it is not in your nature to think this way - you have to do it right.
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Post by sls on Jun 29, 2006 6:49:26 GMT -6
I had a senior try anf fight me 3 years ago. Unreal, some of his "friends" drug him off the field. The best part was that he showed up the next day like nothing had happended and wondered why I had cleaned out his locker.
If he threatens you, go to the authorities.
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Post by coachnicholson on Jun 29, 2006 7:30:33 GMT -6
It really is sad that we as coaches have to deal with things like this. It is even sadder that there are kids out there who think this type of behavior is ok!
This topic brought a question to my mind: What is your guys opinions on 2nd chances??
Are you always willing to give a kid a 2nd chance? Does it depend on the situation at hand? I would like to hear your thoughts.
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Post by cqmiller on Jun 29, 2006 7:38:24 GMT -6
It really is sad that we as coaches have to deal with things like this. It is even sadder that there are kids out there who think this type of behavior is ok! This topic brought a question to my mind: What is your guys opinions on 2nd chances?? Are you always willing to give a kid a 2nd chance? Does it depend on the situation at hand? I would like to hear your thoughts. Going back to what I posted before, it totally depends on the situation. If you can tell that a kid is learning this bad behavior from home, because he has a bad support-structure at home. (I've coached at one of the "worst" high-schools in utah = a lot of VERY LOW income families, single mothers, etc.....Last year, we had 3 kids that worked 40 hrs. a week on top of school & football, because if they didn't then their family would be out on the street) In a case like this, I have learned to be a little more patient with giving a kid a second chance, becuase I try to imagine that much stress being on me at that age. Just my opinion that it TOTALLY depends on the situation.
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Post by coachcalande on Jun 29, 2006 8:27:42 GMT -6
worst thing is you might think you are protecting a kid but youre gonna be sorry if that kid hurts someone else and you knew of his potential and didnt do anything about it...even if a kid utters profanity or racial slurs we have to notify folks to protect ourselves. typically where theres trouble its not an isolated incident...folks turn their heads and look away...its regrettable. Great advice Coach Calande. MCE - Never underestimate the litigiousness of our society. You'd be amazed at what lawyers can do with a case even when you are 100% right. And never assume that others (your admin) will do what's right, instead assume that they will do what's easy (or less costly). Protect yourself - even if it is not in your nature to think this way - you have to do it right.
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Post by coachcalande on Jun 29, 2006 8:29:51 GMT -6
Second chances are EARNED thru compliance with discipline and intervention...if this boy could admit where he went wrong, accepth the consequences and make his apologies known...then hes earned another chance to be part of the program...he needs the program and the discipline and respect it teaches more than the program needs him. You cant just pretend it didnt happen and call it a second chance...what that is is "no chance" meaning "no chance it wont happen again" It really is sad that we as coaches have to deal with things like this. It is even sadder that there are kids out there who think this type of behavior is ok! This topic brought a question to my mind: What is your guys opinions on 2nd chances?? Are you always willing to give a kid a 2nd chance? Does it depend on the situation at hand? I would like to hear your thoughts.
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Post by coachcalande on Jun 29, 2006 8:34:28 GMT -6
I will disagree slightly as I do respect your opinion on this, but to me, bad home life, poor examples of parenting at home are NO EXCUSE for failure to follow rules and regs at school. Thats my feeling on it based on the fact that in every situation where a kid has a rough time of it at home, the MAJORITY of those kids can turn out just fine. its the ones who lack respect for authority and are ALLOWED to do it because of ENABLERS and folks who feel sorry for them that turn out as knowing how to manipulate the system. Look at the constant jerks that turn up at the pro level. If coaches were truly "successful" theyd have taught those kids how to act well before they got to college...again, i have an extreme view on this based on my own experiences. Most often its a star player that gets the second and third and fourth chances. I cant think of too many bad apples that CANT PLAY that get to stick around and be CANCEROUS to a program. It really is sad that we as coaches have to deal with things like this. It is even sadder that there are kids out there who think this type of behavior is ok! This topic brought a question to my mind: What is your guys opinions on 2nd chances?? Are you always willing to give a kid a 2nd chance? Does it depend on the situation at hand? I would like to hear your thoughts. Going back to what I posted before, it totally depends on the situation. If you can tell that a kid is learning this bad behavior from home, because he has a bad support-structure at home. (I've coached at one of the "worst" high-schools in utah = a lot of VERY LOW income families, single mothers, etc.....Last year, we had 3 kids that worked 40 hrs. a week on top of school & football, because if they didn't then their family would be out on the street) In a case like this, I have learned to be a little more patient with giving a kid a second chance, becuase I try to imagine that much stress being on me at that age. Just my opinion that it TOTALLY depends on the situation.
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Post by tye2021 on Jun 29, 2006 10:02:14 GMT -6
I agree with cqmiller. Some of these kids, especially the ones that are from low-income families and lower income communities, are missing something at home. A lot of times it’s a POSITIVE MALE role model! (And this is no disrespect to any single moms) but, when there’s no one in the house to give you direction and teach you what it means to be a responsible young man, your idea of what it means to be a man gets clouded by what you see in the streets from other male adults in your community. And a majority of the time he’s not going to be a good role model. Because the fathers aren’t around these kids don’t know what its like to face discipline from another male. They believe they are being challenged and think that they have to fight for their respect. I myself came from a broken home. I had a mother that lived out of state and cared more about keeping her boyfriend (now husband) more than she did her kids, and an alcoholic father that when he did work would blow his pay check in a weekend…. sometimes in one night. Don’t get me wrong I still love my parents, and they love me and my brothers and sisters, my pops just need help with his addiction and my mom needed an eye opener. But if it wasn’t for my grandparents and my aunts and uncles showing me and teaching me what it meant to work hard and make something of myself who knows how things may have turned out. I was lucky to have people around me that cared. Some of these kids don’t have that and coaches can sometimes be a positive influence in these kid’s lives. If you have a problem with a player pull him to the side and talk to him off the field it may be something that can be fixed. He may just need someone to talk to he may need more but at least find out what it is and if you can’t help point him in the right direction or better yet find out along with him the best course of action that is needed to help that kid. On the other hand sometimes you just get a bad seed. Some of these kids can be helped and this is sad to say but some unfortunately are a lost cause and you should wash your hands of them. You just have to figure out which is which and help the ones that want to be helped.
Having said that, I have a little tolerance for threats! Granted some of these kids may say things out of their a_ _, trying to be hard, but its still unacceptable behavior. He would be off the team. As an adult, I would not put up with it. If the kid is a frosh/soph/jr and came to me immediately with a sincerely apology, I’d let him know that this season is over for him. If he wants to come back next year first the coaching staff needs to decide if he’s a good kid or if he’s a lost cause, second it has to be voted on by the players, third I need to talk to him and his parents about what happened and that if he messes up one more time no matter what it is he is gone and we will not allow him to return. There would be some terms and conditions that he and his parents would have to agree to. We also need to come to an understanding that if he is allowed back he has to start proving himself NOW! First apologize to the team and the coaching staff and anyone else involved. This year you can become an equipment manager. You better be at every practice on time, have everything that you are suppose to have, complete all of your responsibilities, do what we ask you to do, be a positive figure and do not disrespect any one of these coaches or players. Show up to all of the off season workouts with a positive attitude and ready to work hard and understand you are working from the bottom. And adhere to all of the terms that he and his parents agreed to. If the kid is a sr. I’d have to take it case by case. I still need to talk to the parents and after that if you are allowed back on the team expect to be on the sideline for a few games and if you are a starter you will not be when you return.
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Post by los on Jun 29, 2006 19:03:38 GMT -6
Very good post tye!
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champyun
Junior Member
Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.
Posts: 252
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Post by champyun on Jul 2, 2006 11:43:38 GMT -6
Three years ago, we had a kid check into our school with quite a rap sheet. He wanted to come out for FB and I was reluctant. After a few meetings, we decided to give him a chance with the understanding that he would be on a short leash. Only 45 minutes into his first practice, I removed him from the field and escorted him into the FH. We were alone (big mistake) inside and a heated argument insued, with each other nose to nose. I composed myself enough to leave and go back to practice. He followed me out where he then threatened me and my wife (which happened to be at practice at the time). I told her to get on the phone and call the police to escort him off campus. He left immediately when he heard the word police. After practice, I called my Supt. and he said to meet him in the office first thing the next morning. When I arrived, our Principal & Supt. (along with a local police officer) had the kid in the office and told him to pack his belongings because he was going to be immediately withdrawn from school. Quickest enrollment and withdrawal I believe I've ever seen in my 20+ years in the business. Needless to say, I was impressed.
If you don't have that backing, then I'd be sure to pursue it further through the legal system and THEN find another job. It's not worth dealing with if you don't have the support you need.
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champyun
Junior Member
Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.
Posts: 252
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Post by champyun on Jul 2, 2006 11:46:57 GMT -6
On another note....
Hang in there coach! I, too, have been at my wits end and even considered another profession. Discuss this matter with fellow colleagues (which you're doing some of right here) and eventually, the "good" of the profession will change your heart and mind into staying and doing what you love!
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Post by tye2021 on Jul 3, 2006 6:43:47 GMT -6
Thanks los!
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Post by airman on Jul 3, 2006 9:20:52 GMT -6
My first year of coaching, I was a fr coach in a very well to do school district.
the school was more of a band and sokker school then they were football. football had only a few winnng seasons over the previous 20 yr. kids were soft. mom and daddy bought them every thing.
well, one of the big boosters in town, his son went crazy on the head coach, he assulted him. the head coach did not fight back. the kid kicked him on the ground.
needless to say, the kid left. practice was all but over that day. police came. they coulld not find the kid so the next day he was arrested at school.
there is a happy ending to this story. his dad was a banker in town. had money. needless to say, the banker had to come up with a nice sum of money for the head coach in a civil suit.
the kid is 30 now and he still runs to daddy to fix his problems.
kid did 3yr probation for his crime and served 5 months in the work house.
as ron white says"you can't fix stupid"
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Post by gmccown on Jul 5, 2006 11:36:56 GMT -6
My take on this is simple...no job is worth risking your health by taking a beating from a kid or parent...the law is on your side if you act in self defense....and it todays society you don't know that they won't kill you if they say they will, and many of these kids are big enough to do it...so my take is...once a physical assult takes place the gloves are off...and if a threat is made you call the police right then and file and press charges...
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Post by tvt50 on Jul 5, 2006 11:42:17 GMT -6
Ive had a few I wish would have TRIED to fight me. LOL!!!
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Post by gmccown on Jul 6, 2006 10:21:44 GMT -6
I would never wish this to happen. I had a parent last year try to get physical and then threaten to jump me with his buddies after the game because his son wasn't starting. The fact is if they do attack you, you can't afford to let fear of loosing your job play a part in it.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 8, 2006 9:10:30 GMT -6
This is a situation I dread running into, especially in today's brilliant lawsuit happy society. Here's a few examples-
There was a situation here several years ago where a 17 year old male student threatened a PE teacher repeatedly. The teacher and the student ended up getting into it and the kid started throwing punches, the teacher defended himself and the kid walked out of it with a black eye. The kid was expelled and the teacher lost his job for dealing with the situation excessively. Now bear in mind that he didn't wail on the kid, he just popped the kid after the little punk came after him. This kid ended up in prison on some kind of felony charges (sorry I don't remember the specifics) several months later. Basically the school district sh*t on their employee because they didn't want to deal with a lawsuit.
Two years ago the head coach of a AA school (largest class) was suspended for several games after a parent waited for him for two hours after a game and jumped him. Right after the game ended the parent had confronted the coach over his sons playing time and the coach had told him that they would deal with it on Monday. The parent waited for him, got physical, the coach defended himself and ended up suspended.
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Post by gmccown on Jul 8, 2006 16:14:27 GMT -6
Those coaches should have sued the crap out of the schools for wrongfull termination/suspension on the basis that they acted lawfully under state law. Where do these schools get off thinking that their rules supercede the state law? The fact is if you work at wal mart and get mugged in the parking lot leaving work by another employee, wal mart can't fire you for kicking the crap out of the mugger. Same applies for schools. Our society has such a phobia of violence and related lawsuits...this is a huge sore spot for me. Anyone who says that for a good law abiding citizen violence is never the awnser is simply wrong...sometimes it's the only alternative the trash of our society leave you with. Do these school administrators not watch the news...every night it's mug, rape, murder, assult, battery...and these school officials probably believe that those victims did something to mis handle the situation! Makes me sick.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 8, 2006 17:56:40 GMT -6
I don't know why they didn't gm, I know they would've had grounds to do so.... The PE teacher had numerous problems with the kid and the administration did nothing about it. Appearantly the administration thought that the teacher was supposed to "restrain" the student. I'll tell you right now, a 17 year old kid starts throwing punches at me and I'm going to do a whole lot more than "restrain" him,
As far as the coach goes, I don't know why he didn't take action against the school, especially with the violent parents we're seeing more and more. The parent wasn't looking for a peaceful resolution, he was drunk and looking for a fight, period.
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Post by bulldog on Jul 8, 2006 23:58:41 GMT -6
Generally, unless you have a contract, or are protected by a union, you are an 'at-will' employee. This means that you can be fired for any reason or no reason at all. Teachers have unions - coaches do not. Administrators who do the 'expedient thing' (that is avoid legal confrontations) fire coaches all the time - knowing that there is very little that can be done about it. Wrongful termination only applies to discrimination - i.e. you were fired for your skin color, sexual orientation, age, etc.
Think about it. If you were an admin and you had a legal problem with a coach - say a parent threatening to sue - what is easier - firing a coach who is paid a few thousand a year, or paying $20K to a law firm? It's such an easy decision that can be justified by thinking about the money - spend it on the kids or spend it defending an (easily) replaceable coach?
A coach's union isn't a bad idea. It could certainly help with some of these problems that we all face. Particularly the ease with which coaches are fired, legal defense funds, education, raising stipends, etc. If you are a coach that is lucky enough to have a contract . . . you are one of the very few.
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Post by airman on Jul 9, 2006 11:41:10 GMT -6
My take on this is simple...no job is worth risking your health by taking a beating from a kid or parent...the law is on your side if you act in self defense....and it todays society you don't know that they won't kill you if they say they will, and many of these kids are big enough to do it...so my take is...once a physical assult takes place the gloves are off...and if a threat is made you call the police right then and file and press charges... yes and no as for the law being on your side. I am a martial artist and we are constantly told you can only used the proper amount of force to defend yourself. for example, if a person attacks me and I give them a roundhouse kick to the ribs, they go down on the ground, if I walk away, nothing will happen, if I attack them, I will be charged with excessive force. the rational is the fight is over with. now if he gets back up and attacks again, I can attack him. i think every teacher should know hapkido or ju jitsu. they are martial arts which involve restraint though locks and submissions. even then you have to be careful. say you have armbar on a person, you tell them to end it and you will let them go. they giveup, but to teach them a lesson you dislocate the elbow, you will be charged. as for that PE teacher, I would bring a lawsuit. the union should be on top of that. in every district I have been at, we have a signed contract, which spells things out. I would not coach with out a contract. I would also pay the money to have a lawyer look at the contract and the teaching contract. I do nothing with out a lawyer telling me it is okay. just like I never leave a adminsitration office without notes from a meeting. if my prinicpal calls me in, she knows I am going to ask for the converstation to be recored. just like I never talk to a kid in the office without 2 other coaches present or a tape corded conversation.
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Post by coachjimmer on Jul 9, 2006 22:13:13 GMT -6
I have been lucky not to have an experience with a bad apple physically or otherwise. But at an away game a few years ago I did had a verbal fight with a member of a chain gang in the first half and was called unsportsman conduct for abusing an official. Here is the explaination: This idiot held a first down marker in one hand and carried a large plastic of beer in the other hand. He tried to punch me when I told him to dump his beer cup or else. But thanks to my martial arts skills, I easily restrained him and held him on the ground during the game. Needlessly to say, the drunk was not allowed to work the game after the halftime. And I don't think he was back on the job again because I never saw him again.
Crazy but true...
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