mw5433
Freshmen Member
Posts: 35
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Post by mw5433 on Jun 8, 2011 20:21:32 GMT -6
Hey Coaches, I coach 8th grade football and have limited practice time.We do static stretches but I am considering switching to dynamic.
I'm wondering what some of you out there are doing.
Which one warms up/stretches the kids better?
Does dynamic save time?
Any other advantages or disadvantages to either ?
Thanks in advance for any responses.
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Post by rideanddecide on Jun 8, 2011 20:51:45 GMT -6
I won't claim to know the science, but we have gotten great results with NO traditional warmup. At a former job we went directly to Indy and each group got loose in their own position specific way. Saves time, eliminates stretching jack off time, and adds to skill development or mental reps. The year we implemented it our only injuries were broken hands and concussions. No ankles, knees, or shoulders all season.
Does dynamic save time? In my experience it saves time and focus. Kids are more ready to move afterward.
Advantages? If you warmup in an Indy group you add to your learning/skill development. You do need to teach guys how to rep/learn/stretch during this period, but I'd say it pays off.
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Post by rideanddecide on Jun 8, 2011 20:53:15 GMT -6
Oh...and a disadvantage of not static stretching is that it's really hard to win the pregame battle yell as kids count off their stretches and jumping jacks!
Seriously...if you adjust to a different type of warmup you will need to adjust your pregame.
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Post by coachks on Jun 8, 2011 22:31:21 GMT -6
From a personal standpoint, I think most warmups are a giant waste of time. From a team standpoint, it's a giant goof-off session (by and large) and takes entirely too long.
The best way to get loose is to perform the activity (run, change direction, jump, have contact). Start it slow and build up to full speed. Offensively, run perfect play starting at a jog and a little thud with some defenders, up the speed until your moving full speed.
Combined with individual, pre-practice stuff that is plenty to get warmed up. Stretching afterwards is important.
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Post by the1mitch on Jun 8, 2011 23:34:24 GMT -6
I run a 9th grade program and have done the dynamic stuff for years. No question in my mind that it saves time. Our practice plan involves a prepractice that has 2-3 position specific groups doing something 1/4 to 1/2 speed. That lasts 5- 10 minutes and we go to line up for one quick set of jumping jacks and from those lines into form tackle drill or shrug or some variation of those. At the end of this we are warmed up, attendance has been taken, we've bumped a little and any announcements have been made. We coach up the form tackle and use this as a time to talk to specific kids about whatever needs to be said.
We break from here to position groups or kicking game and the circus continues. We go go go for 90 minutes and stretch it out to 2 hours on occasion. Kids water up during position group or any time they're in reserve, (11 on 11). Have a written plan on spread sheet and stick to it. On days when you don't get to something, start the next practice with what you left out.
Draw up a put-in schedule for O-D-K to sure that you get to the important stuff in every phase of the game. Steal time by grabbing your specialists during prepractice and going over snap/hold/PAT etc techniques so you don't have everyone watch one coach to the whole team about how the upback blocks on spread punt.
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Post by cc on Jun 9, 2011 8:14:17 GMT -6
We have gone to only Dynamic "stretching" warmup. It's good for agilites, conditioning, flexibility and warming up of course. This Spring we had NO muscle pulls the entire month!!! We also had our best overall team testing for conditioning drills.
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Post by coachbdud on Jun 9, 2011 9:48:20 GMT -6
dynamic pre
static post
proven to prevent injury
we actually do not warm up at all offensive days... cant get the D coaches to convert to our ways but on O we start in Indys and gradually warm our way up (this is where i love my ladders!)
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Post by coachguy83 on Jun 9, 2011 9:49:13 GMT -6
Coach to be honest I am torn on this subject. I think at the high school level where players have access to regular weight training dynamic is the way to go. Having coaches at the youth level from 3rd graders through 8th graders the last few years I think a mix of dynamic warm ups and some strength training exercises (pushups and sit-ups) is a good idea. I know a couple years ago I made the mistake of doing nothing but dynamic warm ups with a 7th and 8th grade team and found that several of my players didn’t have enough upper body strength to do a proper pushup several weeks into the season, and one of the kids was so weak he once fell out of his three point stance in a game. While honestly one of the funniest things I have seen as a coach it quickly changed my mind regarding warm ups.
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Post by jrk5150 on Jun 9, 2011 10:22:16 GMT -6
From what I'm hearing, static stretching before exercise actually DECREASES athletic performance. Jack Gregory has done extensive research in this area, he coaches middle school and DOES know the science behind it. On his youth double wing web site in the articles section there is a dynamic warm up progression he uses, that both warms up and works specific muscle groups to increase performance over time. There was also a lengthy, extremely detailed thread on this topic recently over at Dum Coaches Youth Football message board, where Jack put up a couple of posts that had a lot of words I didn't understand. Okay, I understood the words, just not the way they were strung together.  I believe the argument/debate there ultimately settled on whether dynamics were needed with youth or whether all the running around they did constituted enough of a warm up. Static stretching was pretty much dismissed out of hand and never discussed again, LOL. I believe there is a use for it after practice to increase flexibility, but you definitely don't want to do it before. |
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Post by shocktroop34 on Jun 9, 2011 10:28:24 GMT -6
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mw5433
Freshmen Member
Posts: 35
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Post by mw5433 on Jun 9, 2011 18:36:42 GMT -6
Having coaches at the youth level from 3rd graders through 8th graders the last few years I think a mix of dynamic warm ups and some strength training exercises (pushups and sit-ups) is a good idea. Thanks for the input coaches. I will be switching to dynamic, but like coachguy says this age group does need consistent strength work so I like the idea of a mix. I'm thinking short warm up jog, dynamic stretching then line up in the old calisthenics formation for some strength work ( push ups, sit ups, light contact ,etc.) This may not save as much time as dynamic only but it should save some, also it really sounds like it will be better for the kids. |
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Post by CoachFetty on Jun 9, 2011 19:23:05 GMT -6
dynamic pre
static post
proven to prevent injurywe actually do not warm up at all offensive days... cant get the D coaches to convert to our ways but on O we start in Indys and gradually warm our way up (this is where i love my ladders!) That is what we do |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 19:31:37 GMT -6
Spoke with a Nebraska S&C Coach and he said dynamic pre, static post just as many others have said.
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Post by jrk5150 on Jun 10, 2011 7:37:20 GMT -6
Having coaches at the youth level from 3rd graders through 8th graders the last few years I think a mix of dynamic warm ups and some strength training exercises (pushups and sit-ups) is a good idea. Thanks for the input coaches. I will be switching to dynamic, but like coachguy says this age group does need consistent strength work so I like the idea of a mix. I'm thinking short warm up jog, dynamic stretching then line up in the old calisthenics formation for some strength work ( push ups, sit ups, light contact ,etc.) This may not save as much time as dynamic only but it should save some, also it really sounds like it will be better for the kids. There are dynamic exercises and drills that you can do that will accomplish a couple of goals at once, loosening up and strengthening football specific muscles. Go here - dscreationsgregorydouble.homestead.com/articles.htmlIn the YDW - The Gun Appendix II (free, as are all the documents on that page) there is a detailed dynamic warm up along with the rationale behind it. In EXCRUCIATING detail, LOL. In addition, if you scroll down there is something called Enduro, which is a conditioning drill done at the end of practice that is equal parts physical, strength and mental conditioning. Again - accomplishing several objectives at once. |
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Post by coachbb on Jun 10, 2011 15:06:58 GMT -6
Dynamic is usually quicker, does a better job warming up, and keeps the players focus better.
IMO, the only reason teams static stretch at the beginning is because that is what they have always done.
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mw5433
Freshmen Member
Posts: 35
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Post by mw5433 on Jun 10, 2011 21:52:11 GMT -6
Thanks for the input coaches. I will be switching to dynamic, but like coachguy says this age group does need consistent strength work so I like the idea of a mix. I'm thinking short warm up jog, dynamic stretching then line up in the old calisthenics formation for some strength work ( push ups, sit ups, light contact ,etc.) This may not save as much time as dynamic only but it should save some, also it really sounds like it will be better for the kids. There are dynamic exercises and drills that you can do that will accomplish a couple of goals at once, loosening up and strengthening football specific muscles. Go here - dscreationsgregorydouble.homestead.com/articles.htmlIn the YDW - The Gun Appendix II (free, as are all the documents on that page) there is a detailed dynamic warm up along with the rationale behind it. In EXCRUCIATING detail, LOL. In addition, if you scroll down there is something called Enduro, which is a conditioning drill done at the end of practice that is equal parts physical, strength and mental conditioning. Again - accomplishing several objectives at once. Great link, thanks. Lots of detail but it provides plenty of ammo for nay-sayers. |
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Post by jrk5150 on Jun 24, 2011 10:09:08 GMT -6
There are dynamic exercises and drills that you can do that will accomplish a couple of goals at once, loosening up and strengthening football specific muscles. Go here - dscreationsgregorydouble.homestead.com/articles.htmlIn the YDW - The Gun Appendix II (free, as are all the documents on that page) there is a detailed dynamic warm up along with the rationale behind it. In EXCRUCIATING detail, LOL. In addition, if you scroll down there is something called Enduro, which is a conditioning drill done at the end of practice that is equal parts physical, strength and mental conditioning. Again - accomplishing several objectives at once. Great link, thanks. Lots of detail but it provides plenty of ammo for nay-sayers. Interesting - how so? Certainly don't want to ask you to cite chapter and verse, but just curious in general what you're seeing that would help the naysayers? |
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Post by TMGPG on Jun 24, 2011 21:24:17 GMT -6
dynamic pre static post proven to prevent injury we actually do not warm up at all offensive days... cant get the D coaches to convert to our ways but on O we start in Indys and gradually warm our way up (this is where i love my ladders!) Agree, we do the same with our track kids as well and have been very happy with the results of kids becoming more flexible and injury free. |
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basher
Freshmen Member
Posts: 33
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Post by basher on Jun 24, 2011 22:45:05 GMT -6
dynamic pre static post proven to prevent injury This is what we do also. The first year we started it we had NO pulled or strained Muscle type injuries the whole season. |
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Post by wingt74 on Jun 26, 2011 18:42:14 GMT -6
3 minutes team dynamic warmup...slow
3 minutes team dynamic warmup...intense
I will never do jumping jacks as long as I coach. Biggest waste of time...and looks like a bunch of crazy monkeys no matter how hard you try.
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mhs99
Junior Member
Posts: 250
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Post by mhs99 on Jun 26, 2011 20:26:40 GMT -6
In our preseason camp and early on we stretch both ways at the start of practie to get the body use to the work we are about to do. As season progresses, we are all dynamic to start. We have had only one pull/tear in six years (a hip flexor pull).
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Post by lukethadrifter on Jun 27, 2011 18:11:57 GMT -6
Dynamic stretching (old school term "calilsthenics") is the way to go. Things like high knees, jumping jacks, picking cotton, etc... have you moving and getting the blood pumping while stretching out the body. The biggest waste of time I know of is getting the kids in a bunch of lines to do static stretching. Too much time is wasted, plus half of the kids don't take it seriously.
Not stretching at all is not bad either. Go and watch at a typical elementary playground when the lower grades are let out for recess. Kids are running around everywhere 100 miles an hour. You notice that they don't all stop and stretch first before they play. Sometimes as coaches, we overcomplicate things.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Jul 4, 2011 11:11:41 GMT -6
I've put a lot of time studying this over the last few years.
What we did was go to dynamics before practice and then static stretches at the end of practice before we go home.
Rant warning:
I have a warning guys for years now, who still do static and still do cals along with "neck" exercises BEFORE practice.
Why are you physically tiring a muscle that will be needed to keep a kid from getting injured or worse?
If a kid gets hurt, the lawyers will eat you alive on this one.
It's crazy guys, I was WRONG when I was a coaching pup.
We did all kind of pushups and WORSE-neck bridges before practice during our static stretches and even before games.
Thank God, I never had a kid get his neck broken. It had to be just dumb luck. I did what I was taught and did things the only way I knew. But I was wrong.
If you exercise a muscle it will get tired-duh.
If you excercise neck muscles they will get tired, the very muscle you need to keep you from getting your neck broken in contact.
These type things we now do in our strength program.
We also added neck strengthening excercises AT THE END of practice not at the beginning. We also lift weights in season.
OK, end of rant-back to what you asked about:
An actual study on stetching was undertaken by the Australian military within the last 10 years.
They found that static stretches did nothing to prevent "pulls of various types etc" but a combination of dynamics before and static after their exercise period reduced these injuries greatly.
They also found that the group of soldiers who added static stretches at night hours after their workouts improved the injuries even greater. I think they had 0 injuries if I remember right.
I don't currently have that study because it was on my old computer that died.
We instituted this into my program for the last 5 years I coached there. We had no problems, but that might be anecdotal evidence however.
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Post by stuartmiller on Jul 4, 2011 17:27:09 GMT -6
An interesting discussion. One that has been going on in the scientific community for a number of years. Traditionally, static stretching has been performed before exercise based on original theory and research. The research then turned out to be flawed i.e. the static stretch group also performed a warm up, whereas the control performed neither; there was always a confounding variable. Recently, large, prospective studies have been performed (mainly in the military as it's easy to get lots of participants (i.e. 1500) who all do the same thing at the same time). As well as studies taking place in the laboratory. These have looked at performance, as well as injury risk. The current findings are that static stretching doesn't decrease the risk of overall injury. Additionally, static stretching for longer than approx 60 seconds will decrease maximal force output of the muscle. The actual mechanisms are not known, although a few theories are present. Static stretching is great at increasing range of motion, but this should be performed after exercise, or even totally separately i.e. upon waking up. This chronic static stretching may decrease the risk of muscle and tendon related injuries. It is the warming up of the muscle and tendon that decreases the risk of injury and improves performance. The muscle and tendon both have viscoelastic properties, and through warming up, you increase their flexibility (less risk of tearing). So before performance, it is the warm-up which is important. This can be performed any number of ways, but basically requires the intensity to be slowly upped, and the range of motion undertaken to be upped. If you actually read the scientific literature out there (and I don't mean some websites interpretation of it), it's actually surprising how little we know on this area. A couple of review articles (there is a lot of research out there). Post static stretching force reduction www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21659901Stretching to prevent or reduce muscle soreness after exercise www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17943822Stretching and injury risk www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12202327I do find some statements quite amusing when relating to this kind of debate. The kind of statement like "Why are you physically tiring a muscle that will be needed to keep a kid from getting injured or worse?" To then follow it up with "I never had a kid get his neck broken" OK...so where is your evidence that what you believe is the right way? I'm not saying it is or isn't, but it would be nice that a debate like this would include actual evidence one way or the other, seeing as the potential detriment it could have to the player. |
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Jul 4, 2011 19:47:49 GMT -6
A ha, I knew this would draw-out the smart guys.
Great post stuart, thanks for the links.
OJW
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Post by bigm0073 on Jul 4, 2011 20:13:32 GMT -6
We took this to another level over our spring camp (mini camp thing) ...
Each position coach did a quick 10 minute routine within their own position group (WR/QB did a quick 5 minute dynamic routine and did 5 minutes of slow and easy pat and go..). After this right into Indy...
OL guy did some agilities, bags.. Basic warm ups.. From there some kick step stuff... Right into his indy period (Saw this in the COOL Clinic Tapes).
Worked GREAT. Not one pull muscle throughout the camp plus NO WASTED time. Our dynamic/team stretch in the past went 15-20 minutes and I was not impressed with all of the down time and BS...
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Post by hamerhead on Jul 4, 2011 22:01:42 GMT -6
As coaches, I know we are all ALWAYS looking for ways to improve practice efficiency and get more out of the finite amount of time we have with our players, without simply demanding more time of them and their families.
However, as much as the "just go strait into individual drills" idea intrigues me, I'm just not sure I have the guts to do that. I'm not comfortable with it, and it seems like a liability issue looking for a place to happen. I can hear our parents complaining already.
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Post by lukethadrifter on Jul 4, 2011 23:32:42 GMT -6
The best program I have ever coached in would hit the field and have the kids divided between 5 coacihes who each had a station. Each station lasted 1:30 and then the kids would break out and jog to the next station. Taking 30 seconds into account for getting to the next station, our kids were warmed up and ready to go into individual after 10 minutes and sometimes less than that.
We always made sure that at least 2-3 of the 5 stations emphasized some sort of football fundamental. An example of a typical Monday station rotation might be:
Station 1 - 2 pt. & 4 pt. explosions and roll into 5-man sled
Station 2 - high knees, cariocas, butt kicks, walking lunges
Station 3 - angle tackle
Station 4 - quick ladders
Station 5 - board drills to drive defender, keep wide base, and take short choppy steps
We would always change up 2-3 of the stations daily to provide variety and to teach other football skills such as: skate drill, fumble recovery, strip drills, ball security, catching drills, shedding a block, lateral agilities, agile agilities, cone drills, etc...
We were able to get the kids warmed up and yet get some more reps on the fundamentals of the game. It didn't matter whether a kid was a qb, lineman, wr, etc... They all need to be football players. I've used this model ever since, and the coaches and kids love it.
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Post by hamerhead on Jul 5, 2011 8:53:53 GMT -6
We always made sure that at least 2-3 of the 5 stations emphasized some sort of football fundamental. An example of a typical Monday station rotation might be: Station 1 - 2 pt. & 4 pt. explosions and roll into 5-man sled Station 2 - high knees, cariocas, butt kicks, walking lunges Station 3 - angle tackle Station 4 - quick ladders Station 5 - board drills to drive defender, keep wide base, and take short choppy steps We were able to get the kids warmed up and yet get some more reps on the fundamentals of the game. It didn't matter whether a kid was a qb, lineman, wr, etc... They all need to be football players. I've used this model ever since, and the coaches and kids love it. Coach, I freaking LOVE the idea of "they all need to be football players." I think there are certain fundamentals that all kids need to have/know in high school football and sometimes we overspecialize, particularly at the small school level where I coach. I might feel differently in a bigger school. But I'm not sure I agree with your warmup situation. If I'm a kid who's first station of the day is board drills for example, am I really "warm" enough for this? I wouldn't want the first dynamic activity to be a sprint and collision, seems like a way to injure muscles to me. We do similar sorts of rotation activities, after a dynamic warmup, which I completely agree with. Do you just start with the rotations? |
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Post by coachjd on Jul 5, 2011 9:20:46 GMT -6
I have 3 DVD's that the national guard has put out over the past 3 years. The DVD's have drills etc... but also have warm-ups. The footage is from Georgia 09, Temple 10, and Alabama 11'.
Georgia does a lot of traditional static stretches with very limited dynamic. Alabama is all dynamic and Temple was very unique but used a combo of both dynamic and static that took them less than 10 min.
It was very interesting to see the 3 different warm-ups and compare the schools of thought.
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