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Post by wingtol on May 1, 2011 9:48:09 GMT -6
On another board I frequent a coach called out a poster about his record, scoring, and overall success with the offense being discussed.
The guy who was put on the spot is a frequent poster and often has very detailed post and good info but his posting style can rub some the wrong way (talking about his "pro coaching", name dropping, and kind of talking above peoples heads at times) at times.
So I wonder....does the success of a coach and his team have any impact on how much stock you put into what they post/clinic about? If you sat through a guy giving a great clinic say for a couple hours then find out he is like 6-34 as a coach does that impact how you process what you just heard?
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Post by blb on May 1, 2011 9:58:40 GMT -6
does the success of a coach and his team have any impact on how much stock you put into what they post/clinic about? Not necessarily - the best coaches don't always win. There are more good Football coaches than there are good Football programs. On here, Deuce is an example of a guy who obviously knows his stuff Defensively but by his own admission has had trouble getting it to translate into wins on the field because of the situations he was in. At a clinic, I figure somebody must have thought a given speaker had something worthwhile to share or he wouldn't be presenting. But the anonymity of a message board does allow some people who really are clueless to talk a good game.
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Post by op4shadow on May 1, 2011 10:03:49 GMT -6
wow...great question. i personally would like to hear from someone who's had success. of coarse, you gotta understand circumstances as well. a great coach could be at a small school where they are out matched every game. then again, you would think that a great coach can make a team successful under most circumstances.
at the school i am currently coaching for, last year's offensive coordinator (who left this year) was great when it came to scheme, however he was not good at teaching technique and fundamentals. give him a whiteboard and a marker, he'll scheme you u to death. give him a whistle and 10 position players, and they'll be defeated on friday night.
i guess i'm trying to say that i'd rather listen to that guy who's got some credentials behind him, simply because the wins are tangible proof that the guy probably knows what he's doing. however i won't say that a coach who's been .500 for his career isn't worth listening to. plenty of knowledgable coaches out there who are in bad situations
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Post by brophy on May 1, 2011 10:07:15 GMT -6
if it makes sense - it makes sense
from 2005
what the OP posted is one of the main reason this site was created
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Post by fantom on May 1, 2011 10:07:28 GMT -6
On another board I frequent a coach called out a poster about his record, scoring, and overall success with the offense being discussed. The guy who was put on the spot is a frequent poster and often has very detailed post and good info but his posting style can rub some the wrong way (talking about his "pro coaching", name dropping, and kind of talking above peoples heads at times) at times. So I wonder....does the success of a coach and his team have any impact on how much stock you put into what they post/clinic about? If you sat through a guy giving a great clinic say for a couple hours then find out he is like 6-34 as a coach does that impact how you process what you just heard? The whole philosophy of this board is that every idea should stand on its own merit.
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Post by spreadattack on May 1, 2011 10:41:42 GMT -6
On another board I frequent a coach called out a poster about his record, scoring, and overall success with the offense being discussed. The guy who was put on the spot is a frequent poster and often has very detailed post and good info but his posting style can rub some the wrong way (talking about his "pro coaching", name dropping, and kind of talking above peoples heads at times) at times. So I wonder....does the success of a coach and his team have any impact on how much stock you put into what they post/clinic about? If you sat through a guy giving a great clinic say for a couple hours then find out he is like 6-34 as a coach does that impact how you process what you just heard? The whole philosophy of this board is that every idea should stand on its own merit. Exactly. Other boards fell into this and it destroyed them.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 1, 2011 11:37:25 GMT -6
So I wonder....does the success of a coach and his team have any impact on how much stock you put into what they post/clinic about? If you sat through a guy giving a great clinic say for a couple hours then find out he is like 6-34 as a coach does that impact how you process what you just heard? In 98% of the cases, no. But I do think it depends on the topic being presented as well as what you are looking to learn from the information. If it were purely on x's and o's..then I don't think his record would have any bearing. However, if discussing philosophy, or how to handle situations, program development/ etc.. I think a persons record/accomplishments may be influential, especially if they are not inline with your program or what you are trying to accomplish. Fox example, in reading the boards, it is apparent that some coaches are 24/7 grinders for 12 months... and others seem to have more of a philosophy of "this is what we do..its good enough..and the chips will fall where they may". In those cases, I would like to see some records or know the success. I don't want to adopt a 7-4 blueprint if I am trying to build a 13-2 program. Additionally, I believe it is important to know the circumstances/level in which the person coaches. Ideas/thoughts on what to do at a program that dresses out 65 kids who are jr's and sr's may not be as successful when you dress out 25 total.
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blue22
Freshmen Member
Posts: 62
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Post by blue22 on May 1, 2011 14:08:45 GMT -6
I dont think the coaching record makes them any smarter or less. The beauty of peoples post or clinic talks is to take their ideas and apply them to your current situation thats what good coaches do apply their knowledge to the hand they are dealt. I could probably name a dozen coaches with good records but arent good coaches, they fell into a gold mine. Vice versu I could name a dozen coaches with average records who are excellant coaches.
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Post by Yash on May 1, 2011 14:33:57 GMT -6
I have had it work the other way too though. I have seen some clinic speakers who had very successful teams. The problem I had with them is that they had flat out better players than everyone else they played. It wasn't that they were running a great scheme or had a great program. They flat out "out talented" everyone they played. It turned me off because I am not, nor probably ever will be, in a position where my kids are just flat out better than my schedule. I want to listen to guys who find ways to make the little guys succeed.
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Post by fantom on May 1, 2011 16:57:42 GMT -6
I could probably name a dozen coaches with good records but arent good coaches, they fell into a gold mine. If we're talking consistent, sustained success I don't believe that that happens very often. I've certainly seen coaches who may not have been great coaches hit the talent jackpot and have a nice run for a few years. I don't believe, though, that there are many schools that have such overwhelming talent they can be good year in and year out with poor coaching.
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blue22
Freshmen Member
Posts: 62
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Post by blue22 on May 1, 2011 17:19:49 GMT -6
fantom,I agree that it takes a good coach to have sustained sucess. But some coaches have won championships that were poor coaches and unfortunaly that is usally how people judge sucess in todays day and age. For example Larry Coker jumps to mind average coach talent jackpot.
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Post by Coach Huey on May 1, 2011 19:24:53 GMT -6
For example Larry Coker jumps to mind average coach talent jackpot. when did you work with him? or did you play for him?
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Post by coachbdud on May 1, 2011 20:23:24 GMT -6
For example Larry Coker jumps to mind average coach talent jackpot. when did you work with him? or did you play for him? How do we know he isn't really Larry Coker himself???
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Post by coachcb on May 1, 2011 20:55:06 GMT -6
There is a very good coach who took over a struggling program around here a few years ago. I saw him speak at Glazier clinic before he took over the program; great guy and coach. He has struggled like none other in his current gig; they aren't really much better than they were before he took over. Now, this guy built a very strong program before taking this job but he just can't get it done. It truly may be one of those "no-win" scenarios; regardless of the coaching. But, I would still pay to see him at any clinic and would love to pick his brain. My favorite speaker this year is an OC at a small college that is struggling. He was FANTASTIC; very bright, articulate cat that made a lot of great points. He held his own on a panel filled with coaches that have been around a long time; one of them has a lot of NAIA national titles under his belt. I have been guilty of the 'stats' game this year. But, I am also quick to point out that we didn't accomplish anything in the wins-column so it doesn't mean much.
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Post by drewdawg265 on May 1, 2011 21:09:40 GMT -6
I think sustained success means something. I am more likely to dig deeper into what successful programs are doing. At the same time I believe success involves a number of factors. A coach or staff can do something really well but overall it might not equate to wins. I think about teams that a really good on offense, defense or special teams but do not have the other aspects of their game up to the same level. To win you need to do everything well but you can still do some things really well and have things fall short on the win column.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 2, 2011 6:27:32 GMT -6
We have enjoyed a fair amount of success here. If one of our coaches gets invited to speak, there usually is a good turn out. I think a lot of that is directly b/c of wins and losses. However, I don't know that what we do specifically will always be the magic bullet at other places.
In my 18 years of coaching, I have been in 4 programs. If you took our staff and put them in 2 of those programs, there wouldn't have been NEAR the amount of success seen on the field there as we have had here.
It all comes down to how do you define success. If success is winning the big cookie, then here in SC, out of about 200 schools, only 6 were successful last year.
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Post by coachcb on May 2, 2011 8:02:18 GMT -6
We have enjoyed a fair amount of success here. If one of our coaches gets invited to speak, there usually is a good turn out. I think a lot of that is directly b/c of wins and losses. However, I don't know that what we do specifically will always be the magic bullet at other places. In my 18 years of coaching, I have been in 4 programs. If you took our staff and put them in 2 of those programs, there wouldn't have been NEAR the amount of success seen on the field there as we have had here. It all comes down to how do you define success. If success is winning the big cookie, then here in SC, out of about 200 schools, only 6 were successful last year. That's a good point and I know many coaches set that as the one and only goal of a program.
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Post by fantom on May 2, 2011 8:21:17 GMT -6
We have enjoyed a fair amount of success here. If one of our coaches gets invited to speak, there usually is a good turn out. I think a lot of that is directly b/c of wins and losses. However, I don't know that what we do specifically will always be the magic bullet at other places. In my 18 years of coaching, I have been in 4 programs. If you took our staff and put them in 2 of those programs, there wouldn't have been NEAR the amount of success seen on the field there as we have had here. It all comes down to how do you define success. If success is winning the big cookie, then here in SC, out of about 200 schools, only 6 were successful last year. Obviously winning the state championship isn't the only definition of on-field success. If a coach's team won it in 2008 but got knocked out in '09 and '10 that doesn't mean that he got dumber.
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Post by davecisar on May 2, 2011 9:09:31 GMT -6
Success is measured differently at different places- based on potential De La Salle, Matter Dei, Servite, South Lake Carrol, they probably arent going to define the on field season a success unless they win the Title They all have big numbers, some descent players etc A program in the same division that has 1/2 as many players, historic low quality and no history of on field success, making the playoffs, probably a great season my most definitions Local coach I know was winning 3-5 games every year with total numbers of only 60 or so, competing against programs with 250- I thought he was maxing out his equation. People recognized this- he got a better job. Xs and Os, personally I will listen to anyone When it comes to tech, program development, game management, player development, team management, motivation, weights etc I want to know the guy has had some legit on the grass success, that what he is suggesting actually works in real life. Personally Ive developed a lot of stuff that looked like it was going to be great/fool proof on paper, but when we applied it, over the long haul it wasnt worth a darn. I have learned quite a bit from consistently unsuccessful coaches though at the youth level- I just make sure Im not doing anything they think is important- the George Costanza opposite principle LOL.
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Post by coachbdud on May 2, 2011 9:20:12 GMT -6
Success is measured differently at different places- based on potential De La Salle, Matter Dei, Servite, South Lake Carrol, they probably arent going to define the on field season a success unless they win the Title They all have big numbers, some descent players etc A program in the same division that has 1/2 as many players, historic low quality and no history of on field success, making the playoffs, probably a great season my most definitions Local coach I know was winning 3-5 games every year with total numbers of only 60 or so, competing against programs with 250- I thought he was maxing out his equation. People recognized this- he got a better job. Xs and Os, personally I will listen to anyone When it comes to tech, program development, game management, player development, team management, motivation, weights etc I want to know the guy has had some legit on the grass success, that what he is suggesting actually works in real life. Personally Ive developed a lot of stuff that looked like it was going to be great/fool proof on paper, but when we applied it, over the long haul it wasnt worth a darn. I have learned quite a bit from consistently unsuccessful coaches though at the youth level- I just make sure Im not doing anything they think is important- the George Costanza opposite principle LOL. good point, succss is relative... for a DLS, anything less than undefeated is a horrible year. They have won 19 consecutive NCS championships, realistically no one in norcal has been close to beating them in years. So if you define success by chapionships then every D-1 team in Norcal has been unsuccesful for the last 20 years. For my current school, we have had a history of being bad for the last nearly 10 years... If we go 5-5/6-4 and can squeak into the playoffs then we will have had a succesful season in every ones's mind around here
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Post by 42falcon on May 2, 2011 9:25:34 GMT -6
I could care less what the guys record is. A few years back I would have been all over that but after some interesting experiences I have seen both sides of the coin and in doesn't matter. Here is why: I started coaching and figured that the places I was at were normal in terms of the talent draw and the interest in football. We won all the time, kids went onto University we even had a couple go down south. Then I got to the last stop I had failry new program that got started because to many kids were being cut by 2 neighboring teams they were consistently poor 0-8 season were the norm. I got there we started doing better but nothing earth shattering I think out best year was 4-4. When I left I got to look back and relaized that I had just seen the other end of the spectrum: 1- place had tons of turn out, big kids, dedicated kids, loads of talent our 2nd group could start on most teams 2-place we had 170lb OL playing against 220lb OL, barely had enough kids to field teams, some great kids but some very under talented kids (I relaized this when I signed our roster and saw that almost 75% of our kids were released by other teams.......)
So in the end it doesn't matter a lick what the record is. The ideas and teaching progression means everything.
Sorry one more thing here Blue22 I don't want to sound like an a$$ but that's not cool to throw that out there about another coach.
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Post by pvogel on May 2, 2011 9:31:46 GMT -6
you know something that I dont. I know something that you dont.
and you can learn from someone regardless of what you designate as success.
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JMC
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by JMC on May 2, 2011 11:53:42 GMT -6
I've worked under a couple guys who were great teachers, on things no to do! They did somethings that were the wrong way, and by watching them fail, I learned not to do the things they did. You can always learn no matter the situation!
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Post by coachorr on May 2, 2011 12:38:14 GMT -6
I could care less what the guys record is. A few years back I would have been all over that but after some interesting experiences I have seen both sides of the coin and in doesn't matter. Here is why: I started coaching and figured that the places I was at were normal in terms of the talent draw and the interest in football. We won all the time, kids went onto University we even had a couple go down south. Then I got to the last stop I had failry new program that got started because to many kids were being cut by 2 neighboring teams they were consistently poor 0-8 season were the norm. I got there we started doing better but nothing earth shattering I think out best year was 4-4. When I left I got to look back and relaized that I had just seen the other end of the spectrum: 1- place had tons of turn out, big kids, dedicated kids, loads of talent our 2nd group could start on most teams 2-place we had 170lb OL playing against 220lb OL, barely had enough kids to field teams, some great kids but some very under talented kids (I relaized this when I signed our roster and saw that almost 75% of our kids were released by other teams.......) So in the end it doesn't matter a lick what the record is. The ideas and teaching progression means everything. Sorry one more thing here Blue22 I don't want to sound like an a$$ but that's not cool to throw that out there about another coach. Absolutely excellent post. Have you ever been at a clinic and the idea or scheme seems pretty normal (ie gun veer or I lead) and just before the guy goes to clips he makes a fleeitng comment like "And that's how we get it done at school X". Then he clicks on the video clips and you start to feel like a homeless person standing out in the rain on the sidewalk peering in through the window of a fancy restaurant, because you see the superior talent they are gettin it done with?
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Post by coachcb on May 2, 2011 12:58:02 GMT -6
There are guys on here that I will always listen to and learn from and I have no idea how successful they have been. They know their stuff and it's obvious.
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Post by cqmiller on May 2, 2011 13:24:09 GMT -6
Hope nobody cares about the W/L record that I have had at some of my stops... I have a few coaches that I have either played for or coached under that have had great records but I have learned a ton about what not to do from them. On the other hand, I have learned a ton of what I do from a few HC's that struggled in the W/L record in the past.
At the end of the day, a coach can only "win" the game as a coach if the talent is equal on both sides. I know plenty of games we should have been beat by about 6 TD's because of the talent difference, but we were within 7 in the 4th quarter before giving up a late 1 or 2.
I have left the field feeling more proud of my kids after losses than I have after wins. We almost beat a team that was 3 divisions above us 1 time. Defense ran out of gas with about 7 minutes left and we gave up 2 late TD's and a pick-6 so we lost by 17. Never been more proud of a team than after that game. All 20 kids we dressed were completely spent and could barely stand. I'll always remember that game.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2011 13:38:06 GMT -6
does the success of a coach and his team have any impact on how much stock you put into what they post/clinic about? Not necessarily - the best coaches don't always win. There are more good Football coaches than there are good Football programs. On here, Deuce is an example of a guy who obviously knows his stuff Defensively but by his own admission has had trouble getting it to translate into wins on the field because of the situations he was in. At a clinic, I figure somebody must have thought a given speaker had something worthwhile to share or he wouldn't be presenting. But the anonymity of a message board does allow some people who really are clueless to talk a good game. I agree, I think the quality of what a person puts on one of these boards speaks volumes, not only of the quality and quantity one posts, but the willingness to help others. I don't think people come on here to baffle with BS to help others. The bafflers are easily seen or read whichever term you prefer to use. My record as a HC is average, but at my last stop, we were terrible, 3-27 in 3 seasons. I don't think I'm Nick Saban, but I do know a thing or two about football, but that didn't really help at my last gig. As a matter of fact, we had a VERY knowledgable staff for as small a school as we were, and it still didn't matter. Many of us don't want to admit this, but coaching really is a minute part of what makes good football programs. Many of us would like to think we wave our hand and viola! the wins happen, but there are too many factors here to name in what goes into making a good or great football program. I think coaching is a factor, just not the most important one. This topic intrigues me, b/c there are some on here who've asked me to write books on some stuff I talk about, however I'm leary, b/c who wants to read a book on defensive football from a coach that went 3-37? Doesn't sound real appealing. I'd like to write a book, but I just don't think I have the "street credit" for it. On the other hand, I have been to clinics where the guy talking was coming off a great season, only to research him and find out it was after 4 losing seasons. It didn't make me think less of him, and I still utilized what he was teaching. As someone else put it, there are far more good football coaches than there are good football programs. Anyhow, I'm rambling now, good topic though, been thinking of posting something on this myself. Duece
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Post by Coach.A on May 2, 2011 14:24:22 GMT -6
I think I would give more recognition to experience (i.e. length of time coaching) over wins / losses.
That being said, there are those programs that do win consistently and there are those coaches who have been known to turn struggling programs around. The success these coaches experience has far more to do with their leadership qualities then their knowledge of x's and o's. They have the ability to get the most from their players, staff, parents and community. In my opinion that is the secret to long term success in this game.
I should add that in my experience, turning that struggling program around (e.g. going from a winless season to getting those first couple wins, or finally getting a team above .500, or finally getting a team into the playoffs) is the hardest part. Once you find success it becomes easier...success breeds success.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2011 17:43:46 GMT -6
True statement steelhawk, good post. Now, this may be for another thread, but for those that "get the most out of their players" what do you think the key is? Is there a key? Are the factors always different for diff. coaches/situations/locales? I admire these guys, even thought I was one after I turned around a dismal program as a HC, however this last gig, proved I'm not, and has really been a "head scratcher". Just trying to see if you can put a finger on some of the keys to getting all you can out of other people.
Duece
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de58
Freshmen Member
Posts: 67
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Post by de58 on May 2, 2011 20:23:29 GMT -6
The reason a coach can be a football guru and still have a poor record is because being a football coach is just 50% (maybe less) X's and O's. If you can motivate players, maximize their abilities, and sustain that effort for the duration of a game (or season), you are going to be successful more times than not. Sometimes it's not so much knowing the game inside and out, but knowing your players.
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