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Post by coachks on Apr 20, 2011 8:35:24 GMT -6
I attended a clinic last off-season and heard an absolutely awful speaker. He was an NFL guy, but had just completed his first season as an assistant position coach (previously some sort of manager/assistant/intern thing). Did not play college ball. I don't usually judge based on experience one way or the other, but I feel it's relevant as background.
He opened his presentation by stating that at every level football is a passing game. EVERY level, pee wee, middle school, high school to college and pro. Football is always a passing game. His words, not mine.
The rest of his presentation, which covered his coaching style was filled with soundbites and cliche's. He reminds every new corner he gets that "You aint Deion." Following this, he pointed out the neccessity of some 7 man sled that has pivoting pads they use and about 5 drills they use it for. Teaching DB's is a futile exercise without it.
He was extremely charasmatic and well spoken during the presentation.
No big deal, you hear a few poor speakers every year.
Until I was browsing around Footballscoop and saw he had just been hired as a Special Teams coordinator at a BCS University.
-No playing experience -No coaching experience -Limited understanding of the game
But, he had great connections (guys like Marvin Lewis and Ray Edwards) and is probably going to be a great recruiter. He seemed highly intellegent and I have no doubt he'll be a good coach one day.
But there are 1,000s of more qualified coaches at the high school level that will never get a shot.
It's just a strange profession at times.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 20, 2011 8:43:23 GMT -6
Coaching is just like the rest of the professional world; it's all about who you know. But, when you start doing a sh-tty job, that turns on you quickly; the "who-you-knows" disappear or throw you under the bus because they don't want their name attached to you.
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Post by blb on Apr 20, 2011 8:50:34 GMT -6
Heard K-State's Bill Snyder talk at a clinic where he said, "Just because someone's coaching in the NFL doesn't mean he's a good coach. There are bad coaches there too."
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Post by veerbone on Apr 20, 2011 9:22:16 GMT -6
Heard K-State's Bill Snyder talk at a clinic where he said, "Just because someone's coaching in the NFL doesn't mean he's a good coach. There are bad coaches there too." And he's right.
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Post by mitch on Apr 20, 2011 15:28:39 GMT -6
I heard a college guy at a clinic say "if you want to make yourself feel good about what kind of coach you are, go to an NFL practice".
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Post by coachcb on Apr 20, 2011 15:41:56 GMT -6
I heard Urban Meyers say the same thing at a clinic once. He refused to move up to the NFL because he felt the coaching was sub-par.
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Post by drewdawg265 on Apr 20, 2011 23:12:27 GMT -6
I disagree. I don't know many people that get paid big bucks and are successful because they are bad at something. The college coaches that talk trash about nfl guys should give that level a shot. Some of the best college coaches got their lunch packed to them when they gave the nfl a shot. Coaching in a league of parity puts a bigger emphasis on coaching. At schools like florida or alambama it is a rare occasion when they play a team that has close to their talent.
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Post by airraider on Apr 21, 2011 6:54:27 GMT -6
I will SWEAR to you that I can pull 100 coaches off of this board alone that would have done a helluva job better at the 49er's head coach last year than Mike Singleberry did... Im just saying!! And YES, I am a Niners fan!
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Post by drewdawg265 on Apr 21, 2011 7:38:58 GMT -6
So are you saying that the samuri couldn't take on a high school coaching job and be successful? I think it is easy for people to talk about how bad other coaches are. I am sure I could look at all of the programs that are ran by the same coaches that are dissing nfl coaches on this thread and pick them apart. I was fortunate to have a nfl ol coach on my staff for one year. He actually got fired but as still under contract for that year. That guy coached his butt off and was more detailed and organized than any coach I have been apart of.
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Post by blb on Apr 21, 2011 7:55:42 GMT -6
The point isn't that NFL coaching is inferior, the point is that just because a guy is an NFL coach doesn't mean he INDIVIDUALLY is a good coach like some might assume.
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Post by drewdawg265 on Apr 21, 2011 9:27:18 GMT -6
ok. I get annoyed when other coaches rip other coaches without actually coaching with them. The worst clinic speakers I ever saw where spurrier and beamer. Based on their track record of success I would assume they are outstanding coaches.
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Post by tango on Apr 21, 2011 9:46:18 GMT -6
Pro guys scheme more than good high school coaches and high school guys teach more tech. Just two different animals. College coaches are in the middle. Heck I hired my best friend and he thought I was crazy when I told him how we do things. His first day at practice he told a kid to reduce down and the kid looked at him for a few seconds and he said son I know you are smart and the entire team hit the ground laughing. He learned a lot that year and we went 11-1.
If you have never coached ball before go to a small school and coach MS ball. You will learn more about the game in 8 weeks than anywhere else. IMO!!
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Post by coachdubyah on Apr 21, 2011 9:50:57 GMT -6
I recommend that every coach, at least once in their career coach Middle School.
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Post by airman on Apr 21, 2011 9:53:12 GMT -6
While you would thing colleges would be interested in high school coaches very often they are not.
I heard a clinic speaker from a D2 team say if you want to coach college football you have to coach college football because it gives you contacts. His theory was you should find a college near you and be a volunteer assistant coach.. this shows what you are made of.
there will never be a high school coach jump directly from h.s to college h.s. ND tried it and it was abysmal
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Post by blb on Apr 21, 2011 10:02:41 GMT -6
there will never be a high school coach jump directly from h.s to college h.s. ND tried it and it was abysmal Not to mention North Texas. A D-III college in our state hired a highly-successful, long-time HS coach last year. Went 0-10, most of games blowouts. (In fairness, he was taking over a team that was 1-19 previous two years). I think a HS coach could make the jump successfully IF HE HAD PREVIOUS COLLEGE COACHING EXPERIENCE because it is different. Gerry Faust did not, nor did the coach in my example. Don't know about Todd Dodge (North Texas).
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Post by coachcb on Apr 21, 2011 10:11:13 GMT -6
I think the recruiting aspect of college coaching is what these HS coaches have a had a hard time with. If you're the header of a school like South Lake Carroll you're not going to spend any time recruiting or catering to kids. But, now you have to go out on recruiting trips and sell your program to kids. You've spent the majority of your career telling kids to put up or shut up and now you have to spend most of your year stroking the egos of players.
And, you had better be a good salesman if you're coaching at North Texas; not a whole lot of interest there.
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Post by blb on Apr 21, 2011 10:30:28 GMT -6
(Having coached both, including college at two different points in my career):
It's not just the recruiting. That is a special ability which either you have or you don't.
You have to motivate and deal with college-aged kids differently.
Scheme-wise you have to be sound in everything, meaning there are some things you can get away with in HS that will get you beat in college. You won't out-coach many people.
And don't discount the difference between rules, timing, and hash marks. All have an influence on how the college game is coached-played differently than HS.
Good thing is there's less problems with parents. Trade-off is there's more issues with drinking-drugs and girls. And of course homesickness and retention with the young 'uns.
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Post by airraider on Apr 21, 2011 12:06:11 GMT -6
So are you saying that the samuri couldn't take on a high school coaching job and be successful? I think it is easy for people to talk about how bad other coaches are. I am sure I could look at all of the programs that are ran by the same coaches that are dissing nfl coaches on this thread and pick them apart. I was fortunate to have a nfl ol coach on my staff for one year. He actually got fired but as still under contract for that year. That guy coached his butt off and was more detailed and organized than any coach I have been apart of. That's exactly what I am saying.. Sure he may be an intense motivator who puts up with no crap.. and with a good group of kids and assistants who know whats going on, he would be successful.. But you put him in my place with not a single assistant and a bunch of also rans.. he would go just about as bad as I will.. The guy doesnt know football... as a fan I have the season media pass and have listened to him speak on subject matter more times than I care to remember. The guy was a heck of a LB.. and probably knows a good deal of defensive content.. but that does not make you a good coach.
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Post by coachdennis on Apr 21, 2011 12:24:52 GMT -6
He opened his presentation by stating that at every level football is a passing game. EVERY level, pee wee, middle school, high school to college and pro. Football is always a passing game. His words, not mine. This is why clinic presentations from NFL guys aren't always useful for those of us coaching youth football. At the youth level, football is almost NEVER a passing game. It is primarily a running game. Every year, a coach who thinks he is a genius goes out and tries to air it out with a group of 10/11 year olds, and predictably gets curb stomped. Not all NFL guys are like this, of course. A few years ago, I had the pleasure of hearing from Dante Scarnecchia, long time Patriots OL coach. He was absolutely brilliant, and gave us all kinds of very useful nuggets to take away. I could listen to that guy for hours on end.
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Post by wingtol on Apr 21, 2011 12:48:21 GMT -6
So one clinic session from this guy and you have deemed him unworthy to coach at the D-1 level? I am not sure I would make an assumption like that. Someone else pointed out about Spurier and how his clinics usually stink and I agree having seen him speak. He basically said "well we put the bankers son, the boosters son, and the politicians son out here together to make their daddys happy then isolate our football player down here 1-1 and throw him the ball" I would guess their is more to it than that esp when you get your team ranked in the top 25.
As far as 1000's of HS coaches who would never get that chance, well they prob don't deserve it. It's like saying hey I run a business with 10 employees, hell I could be CEO of IBM I know how to run a business. It's a quantum leap from any level of HS to any level of college ball.
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Post by coachsticks on Apr 21, 2011 12:49:18 GMT -6
Coaching football is who I am. Don't get me wrong, I love being in the classroom, and I value my job as a teacher, but my passion is in between those white lines.
That being said, coaching in itself is completely overrated, especially at the high school level.
I have seen a 5A team in one of the toughest districts in the state of Florida go 11-0 with no semblance of team or organization. They won because their kids were better. Three or four teams on their schedule had {censored} good coaching staffs with highly decorated coaches. It didn't matter.
In the end, players win games. Does it help if they are coached up? Of course. Can you make an average team better with great coaching? Of course. However, I have seen too many examples in South Florida where kids are thrown on the field and contend for state championships with little to no coaching.
If you remember back to Jacory Harris' Miami Northwestern team, they won the mythical high school national championship. They didn't have a coach until early in August! As a high schooler, he essentially took the team through offseason workouts and spring ball. Some South Florida coaches that played against his team will swear to you that he didn't look to the sideline once during games. He did it all himself. What does this mean?
Brings me to my point. Is there such thing as a bad coach? If there is, does it even matter?
Anybody can X and O if they research the game enough. IMO, coaching comes down to two things:
1. Do you have players? If you don't, you are probably screwed. 2. If you do, can you motivate them to play to a level in which they have never thought to be possible.
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Post by coachwilliams2 on Apr 21, 2011 13:19:43 GMT -6
No doubt GREAT players make good coaches. BUT
Most of us never have great players...or if we do it is one every 10 years. SO we have to figure out how to win without the D1 superstars. That comes with coaching technique, skills, fundamentals etc.
We have to get kids to buy in and be part of something BIGGER than themselves, learn lessons of hard work and sacrifice. Working as a team for a common goal etc.
OR you can sit around all day moaning about not having good players, or enough money, or a good weight program etc. etc. etc.
Most places have to MAKE their PLAYERS to compete every week. That is the fun of it to me.
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Post by coachsticks on Apr 21, 2011 16:19:12 GMT -6
I agree with you 100%. I'm at a school where we haven't had a GREAT player since the 80's. We are a pretty good team (6-9 wins a year), we are well-coached, and we have great kids who, for the most part, buy into the program.
The being said, I could take over for 20+ schools in South Florida and say this and win 10 games a year, "You are an offensive lineman, keep him away from the quarterback. You guys get open. Son, get them the ball."
At a school with average players like us, coaching matters. If we didn't put in the time, we would consistently be a below average football team.
I know I'm contradicting myself to some degree, BUT for the top 20% teams in the state of Florida, I'm not sure it would matter who is on the coaching staff.
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Post by coach4life on Apr 21, 2011 19:49:08 GMT -6
Pro guys scheme more than good high school coaches and high school guys teach more tech. Just two different animals. College coaches are in the middle. Heck I hired my best friend and he thought I was crazy when I told him how we do things. His first day at practice he told a kid to reduce down and the kid looked at him for a few seconds and he said son I know you are smart and the entire team hit the ground laughing. He learned a lot that year and we went 11-1. If you have never coached ball before go to a small school and coach MS ball. You will learn more about the game in 8 weeks than anywhere else. IMO!! Second that, coached MS ball for 7 years, you learn a lot about how much kids can handle, keeping things simple for them and leaving the burden on you, all kids of good stuff. Moved up to HS last season. The guys running the offense come in, talk about what we're going to do, and I'm kinda thinking "That's it? They can do more than that..." but I also know they've got 20+ years, so better heed what they say. New HC gets up, former DC in college, starts talkin' D. After about 5 minutes now I'm thinkin' "Dang, I thought I knew defense, I don't know SQUAT!". Split coverages based on the look, guys apexing, checking coverages as the offense lines up... Great experience, heck of an education, love it all...
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Post by fantom on Apr 21, 2011 21:30:43 GMT -6
I agree with you 100%. I'm at a school where we haven't had a GREAT player since the 80's. We are a pretty good team (6-9 wins a year), we are well-coached, and we have great kids who, for the most part, buy into the program. The being said, I could take over for 20+ schools in South Florida and say this and win 10 games a year, "You are an offensive lineman, keep him away from the quarterback. You guys get open. Son, get them the ball." At a school with average players like us, coaching matters. If we didn't put in the time, we would consistently be a below average football team. I know I'm contradicting myself to some degree, BUT for the top 20% teams in the state of Florida, I'm not sure it would matter who is on the coaching staff. Until the playoffs when they play each other.
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Post by WB22 on Apr 22, 2011 7:02:22 GMT -6
Along these lines... I've only coached with one guy who went on to coach in the NFL (while I was a G.A. ...I coach high school ball now) - and he was probably the worst coach on the staff. He was kinda comical, without trying to be so.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 22, 2011 8:33:34 GMT -6
This is a disappointing thread to see professionally.
It's been alluded to (but not specifically stated yet). They are DIFFERENCES in performance expectations for coaches in different circumstances. It is sad to see coaches ---who LOVE to talk about how those in the media or stands don't "really know anything" ---so freely criticize others without acknowledging that the jobs are DIFFERENT, even if they fall under the umbrella term of "coach"
Wingtol was on the right track using the small business vs IBM analogy. Is one "better" than the other? Or necessarily "harder"? NO. Are they different? Absolutely. Is one more financially lucrative...almost certainly.
Come on guys, its just different. Jim Tressel and his coaches don't have the same job as H.S coaches, nor do they have the same job as NFL coaches. It is just that simple.
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Post by davishfc on Apr 22, 2011 10:18:46 GMT -6
The being said, I could take over for 20+ schools in South Florida and say this and win 10 games a year, "You are an offensive lineman, keep him away from the quarterback. You guys get open. Son, get them the ball." This is just difficult for me to fathom. It's crazy that coaches are in these situations throughout the nation. That's not coaching IMO. At a school with average players like us, coaching matters. If we didn't put in the time, we would consistently be a below average football team. This sounds more like our situation. Our team needs coaching to help them achieve their full potential. If our players weren't coached, the team would be average at best. But coaching our poor players to average, our average players to good, and our good players to great is our goal everyday. This approach has truly helped our program make tremendous strides in a short period of time.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 22, 2011 11:07:43 GMT -6
I attended a clinic last off-season and heard an absolutely awful speaker. He was an NFL guy, but had just completed his first season as an assistant position coach (previously some sort of manager/assistant/intern thing). Did not play college ball. I don't usually judge based on experience one way or the other, but I feel it's relevant as background. .... Until I was browsing around Footballscoop and saw he had just been hired as a Special Teams coordinator at a BCS University. -No playing experience -No coaching experience -Limited understanding of the game But, he had great connections (guys like Marvin Lewis and Ray Edwards) and is probably going to be a great recruiter. He seemed highly intellegent and I have no doubt he'll be a good coach one day. But there are 1,000s of more qualified coaches at the high school level that will never get a shot. I could be wrong, but I believe you are talking about Coach Daron Roberts. Lets be fair and give the rest of his resume' Biography Daron Roberts, who enters his second season with Detroit, joined the Lions after two seasons (2007-08) working with the Kansas City Chiefs. He was a volunteer with the Chiefs in 2007 and was hired as defensive quality control assistant in 2008 where he assisted current Lions Defensive Coordinator Gunther Cunningham.
Roberts’ responsibilities included: assisting in the development of the playbook, providing computer breakdown reports for the defensive staff and assisting with the defensive backs. While in Kansas City, he worked with a unit that allowed 188.9 passing yards per game in 2007 and ranked fifth in the league for pass defense.
When Roberts joined the Chiefs in 2007 as a volunteer, he worked with special teams coach Mike Priefer. He also served as an assistant coach on at Bishop Miege High School in Kansas City. Roberts is a University of Texas alumnus and served as the Student Body President his senior year. He earned a Master of Public Policy degree from the John F. Kennedy School of Government and holds a law degree from Harvard Law School.Doesn't sound like no coaching experience. Nor does it sound like a limited understanding of the game. Sounds like he might not have given a great presentation. I'll hire him. You can take one of the "1,000's" of 'more qualified' high school coaches.
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Post by leighty on Apr 22, 2011 11:20:18 GMT -6
I remember that guy. There were a number of articles written about him because he decided he wanted to coach football despite having such a prestigous education. He got the gig with the Chiefs because Herm Edwards was impressed with his resume that didn't include any football experience. Talk about winning the coaching lottery...
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