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Post by gapshoot76 on Apr 18, 2011 18:10:14 GMT -6
Call both offense and defense?
My OC just resigned because he is taking another job. We have no teaching jobs available to hire a coach and I don't trust any staff members to do the varsity offense
Any suggestions for me other than to call both or do I just suck it up and do it?
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Post by TMGPG on Apr 18, 2011 19:19:07 GMT -6
Is there any volunteer help that you could trust? I know that is not ideal but something to think about.
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Post by davishfc on Apr 18, 2011 19:58:22 GMT -6
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Post by gdn56 on Apr 18, 2011 20:29:53 GMT -6
Is there anyone on staff you trust to give more responsibility on the Defensive side of the ball? If so, you could then focus more attention on O. If not, I would suggest doing it both, because if you give it to someone you don't truly trust you are going to end up second-guessing that coach and it will probably be a bad scenario for both of you.
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Post by davishfc on Apr 18, 2011 20:44:32 GMT -6
Is there anyone on staff you trust to give more responsibility on the Defensive side of the ball? If so, you could then focus more attention on O. If not, I would suggest doing it both, because if you give it to someone you don't truly trust you are going to end up second-guessing that coach and it will probably be a bad scenario for both of you. Trust is of the utmost importance...especially with the delegation of coordinating responsibilities. Unfortunately, it's also something that doesn't happen overnight. |
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Post by gapshoot76 on Apr 18, 2011 21:57:10 GMT -6
Thanks for that! I have a few good football coaches on staff that do not want to take on a larger roll on our team... I can trust them daily in drills, position work, and when they talk to everyone else I know they have my back! Problem is those guys have no interest in coordinating anything at the varsity level. They have told me that in the past, and their minds aren't changing. We have 2 new guys on staff this year. Both are parents of kids in the district. Both also great guys that aren't there for the wrong reasons, but neither have any varsity football experience coaching. I feel like I may be stuck with no other option but to call the offense and defense. This now creates another problem. My offensive overall knowledge is minimal. I'll be a 3rd year head coach, 26 years old by the time the season rolls around, and have had zero real experience scouting defenses. In know pretty much what offensive scheme I want to use in the run game, but I would be pass game handicapped. I've got a lot of work to do before summer now no matter what happens. Any suggestions for surviving the season with my sanity that will help this process along? |
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bjones
Freshmen Member
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Post by bjones on Apr 19, 2011 8:03:20 GMT -6
You can do both. I have for 5 years now and have been fairly successful. Keep schemes simple and do something that you know you can coach, believe in it. It's not the ideal scenario, but very possible and better than the alternative.
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Post by cwaltsmith on Apr 19, 2011 9:51:45 GMT -6
Coach,
I understand your frustrations. My suggestions would be the following.
1. Cut down on meeting times. We only meet about 4 hours on Sunday between morning and evening church. We occasionally have short meeting after or before practice, and we will meet 1 or 2 times during off season to discuss things. We have workouts from 3-4 3 days a week during off season and during summer, Weight room is open for 2-3 hours per day. We rotate who watches it.
2. Think about simply letting your best asst. simply call the defenses on friday and you give suggestions. You still come up with game plan and all the extra work like normal, but freeing your mind up on Friday might help.
These are just some suggestions. We are a school of 450, we have me, 2 paid asst, and 2 and half volunteers. 1 of the paid comes from another school and arrives right as practice starts. The volunteers work and we have to work around schedules. I am completely simpathetic. These are just some thoughts.
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Post by coachfurn on Apr 19, 2011 12:33:47 GMT -6
I think it's an enormous responsibility to do both. Not saying you could not handle it, but I wouldn't want to try.
Find a coach and this spring and summer, teach him the defense. He can handle the breakdown in season and call base defenses. If he needs help on adjustments in game, help him. You have that expertise. And then you can call the offense being the head man and knowing what you want to do.
I think part of a head coaches responsibility is teaching 'how to coach' to his assistants. And you would be doing that this summer helping him to be the d-coord. He won't be perfect, none of us are. But that's part of your job too...coaching coaches.
just my 2 cents...not trying to sound negative in that at all. But it will help out your sanity in the season.
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Post by Coach Huey on Apr 19, 2011 14:41:16 GMT -6
maybe i can't wrap my head around this because the environments i've been in are different - the whole school system setup is completely different than the way it seems many fresh, jv, varsity staffs are put together, organized, structure, aligned, etc.
but, not sure it would be in the best interest of a varsity football head coach - the head coach of the entire program - to call both offense and defense. is he going to do it for the freshmen team too? and the jv as well? there isn't a coach on staff that can organize any facet of the program on one side of the ball? there isn't enough on the plate of the head football coach of the program (varsity) to do that he can also coordinate, game plan, organize, etc. both an offensive and defensive system?
again, my circumstances have been different and that makes it hard for me to understand the dynamics of this.
is it simply one team - i.e. an 8th grade team, a JV team, etc. or is it an entire program?
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Post by airman on Apr 19, 2011 14:47:13 GMT -6
i know small school coaches who do it all because they have 4 coaches total for 4 grades. you do what you have to do. my dad graduated in 1946 from a small school. the head coach did it all. they had 2 coaches only. the head football coach was also the basketball caoch and the baseball coach. the assistant coach was the head wrestling coach and head track coach my how times have changed.
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Post by Coach Huey on Apr 19, 2011 14:53:27 GMT -6
i know small school coaches who do it all because they have 4 coaches total for 4 grades. you do what you have to do. my dad graduated in 1946 from a small school. the head coach did it all. they had 2 coaches only. the head football coach was also the basketball caoch and the baseball coach. the assistant coach was the head wrestling coach and head track coach my how times have changed. i'm not talking about 2nd sports. i have one of those myself - we all do here. i'm talking about having 4 coaches for a program and the head coach will do everything. 4 coaches, 2 teams, 1 guy doing all the coordinating? is that the best option? we have 7 total coaches for 3 teams here. 1 hc, 1 oc, 1 dc, 1 guy that calls plays for the jv, 1 guy for the freshmen, 1 guy calls defense for jv, 1 guy for the freshmen. over time, as a hc leaves or a coordinator leaves, there is a progression in place. all 6 assistants have duties.... playcalling in games, scripting, practice plan, etc. for at least one team. we all coach our positions for each of the 3 teams. now, maybe that hadn't been done here... but, if you have someone that can at least plan a practice, or scout some films, or even call some defenses then it should help the overall situation. guess i was asking this: just because something could be done, really, should it be done? i don't need the stories of those that have done it ... but, the why it is deemed the best for that situation? way back when i played there was a year where we had 2 coaches - for both a jv and a varsity. hc and another coach. 1 coach called the offense, the other called the defense. yes, 1 guy could have done both, but they chose not to. i never asked why ... so.... why? why not? |
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Post by coachbb on Apr 19, 2011 17:05:47 GMT -6
If your guys are such big slapdicks that you don't trust one of them, then why don't you hire or train better coaches.
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ramsoc
Junior Member
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Post by ramsoc on Apr 19, 2011 19:46:12 GMT -6
If your guys are such big slapdicks that you don't trust one of them, then why don't you hire or train better coaches. Pay attention man, he didn't say that he didn't trust his guys. They just don't want to take on the added responsibility of coordinating. I'm in the same boat this year, but reversed. My DC left, so I'll be calling both. I've done it before, so its no big deal. |
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Post by groundchuck on Apr 19, 2011 20:53:10 GMT -6
For two seasons at a different school when I was a HC I called the O and D. I had me and 1 paid staff member. Two volunteers. I had 50 kids and 2 coaches.
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Post by coachbb on Apr 19, 2011 21:00:27 GMT -6
Actually, he said that exact thing in his original post.  |
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Post by rideanddecide on Apr 19, 2011 21:15:54 GMT -6
I tried and wasn't smart enough to pull it off!
The problem I ran into was that I never had time to clear my head to work through adjustments. If we had a rough offensive series I didn't get a chance to think about how to adjust because I was immediately focused on what we needed to do on defense. Nearly my entire staff was new so that added to the problem.
The biggest thing you're going to need if you are going to do both is to set up a game night system so adjustments can be made. You have to have guys who can make those adjustments and relay the message between you and the kids or it's going to be tough to pull it off.
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Post by Coach Huey on Apr 20, 2011 3:49:50 GMT -6
for those that do it or did it...
what was the level? (youth, ms, fr, jv, var) how many teams in the program? how were the teams aligned - how was the entire staff at the school aligned?
how did you breakdown film? how did you game plan - divide your time? how did you organize practices?
what roles - if any - did your assistants play during breakdown/game plan? what roles in planning practice? what roles in conducting practice?
on game nights - how did you handle in-game adjustments on both sides of the ball? what roles did your assistants play on game nights?
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Post by sweep26 on Apr 20, 2011 6:10:09 GMT -6
In 2009, the HFC at a 6A Florida HS (Largest Classification) ran both offense and defense. They lost in the State Championship game.
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Post by TMGPG on Apr 20, 2011 6:22:16 GMT -6
Is there any former coaches (retired) or guys that do have experience in the community that could possibly help out and maybe do a lot of the scouting for you?
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Post by cwaltsmith on Apr 20, 2011 7:22:17 GMT -6
If your guys are such big slapdicks that you don't trust one of them, then why don't you hire or train better coaches. Some of us don't get to hire and hire... thats done by the principal or super... Must be nice way up there in your tower. But down here where most of us live, we have to play the hand that is dealt. |
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Post by groundchuck on Apr 20, 2011 7:45:45 GMT -6
for those that do it or did it... what was the level? (youth, ms, fr, jv, var) how many teams in the program? how were the teams aligned - how was the entire staff at the school aligned? Class A ball. Smallest 11 man in our state. HC and one assistant in entire HS program.how did you breakdown film? how did you game plan - divide your time? how did you organize practices? Staff all watched film but I really did all the breakdown. Since all players played and practiced both ways organization wasn't an issue.what roles - if any - did your assistants play during breakdown/game plan? what roles in planning practice? what roles in conducting practice? on game nights - how did you handle in-game adjustments on both sides of the ball? what roles did your assistants play on game nights? |
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Post by mariner42 on Apr 20, 2011 8:04:04 GMT -6
The guy I coached under last year did both. There were a variety of reasons he chose to do it, but the primary ones were these: 1-It was his first year and he didn't trust anyone to do it, 2-He's a micro-manager unlike any other I've ever seen, 3-He's been doing both for so long that he doesn't know how to let it go.
This was HS ball in CA, we were a first round playoff team at 7-4.
As far as breakdown goes, he's a Wing-T guru, so the offensive planning is second nature to him, and his defense is ridiculously simple, so there's not a whole lot of planning that goes on there, either.
Assistants roles were to watch their positions, grade them, coach their positions throughout practice and stay out of his way. No one ran anything other than their position drills, everything else was under his management.
Game nights were like extended team periods of practice, assistants coach their guys while he runs the offense and defense.
Lower level coaches were dictated everything from practice plans to gameplanning, if they weren't getting it done to his standards during the games, he would come down to the sidelines and take over.
I'm coaching elsewhere next season.
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bjones
Freshmen Member
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Post by bjones on Apr 20, 2011 11:10:46 GMT -6
I'm at a 3A school (9-12 enrollment is 350) and have done both for 5 years. I don't think it's a matter of not trusting your coaches. I trust my coaches, but to tell you the truth I just don't think they could do better than I could coordinating an offense or defense. I want to give our players the best chance to win and that is with me doing both.
There are 4 of us who do grades 7-12. There is a 7th OC/DC and an 8th OC/DC and a different JV OC/DC. I'm the varsity HC/OC/DC.
We are have duties on weekend/staff meetings breaking things down, compiling info, scout cards, etc. We meet and discuss these things. I do the gameplan based on the info they give and what I've done myself.
The biggest negative has been in game adjustments. We do very little. Coaches in the box and sidelines make suggestions but hard to implement during game.
This is not the most ideal situation. Sometimes it does wear on you. My whole thing is:
Do what you've got to do to give your kids the best chance to win!
Whatever that entails (it's different for every program) then that is what you have to do.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 20, 2011 11:51:09 GMT -6
I'm the HC and I coordinate both the offense and the defense. I made a brave attempt at prepping my assistants in coordinator duties but they just don't have the experience nor are they comfortable.
With any luck I will be able to get one of them running the defense this year....
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Apr 20, 2011 12:05:48 GMT -6
For YEARS Larry Keheres (D3 Mount Union) did both. Read it this past year somewhere. I don't know if I have the constitution to do both at the same time. Definitely could do 1 or the other as a HC.
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Post by coachbb on Apr 20, 2011 14:27:27 GMT -6
That's why you have to train younger coaches. Sometimes schools up in my "tower" can't hire great football minds, but we hire hard-workers who want to learn. I'm sure your supts and principals are going to value work ethic when they hire, even if they don't know much about football.
Like Huey said, you get a progression in place so that if one coach leaves you have another who might be able to fill their shoes.
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Post by coachmoore42 on Apr 20, 2011 22:14:16 GMT -6
I did it two years ago completely, and mostly did it all last year, although I gave up the defensive play calls for most of the season (which isn't much in our scheme).
From Coach Huey's post...
what was the level? (youth, ms, fr, jv, var) how many teams in the program? how were the teams aligned - how was the entire staff at the school aligned?
Level=Middle School, 2 Teams (7th and 8th), I am the header with three assistants (we run both teams as one, except for when we do Team O or Team D). I was the HC/OC/QBs/RBs/ILBs Coach, I had a DC/OL/DL/LS (who basically just called the defense, but did act as the DC in practice so the kids saw him as a true DC), another who was OL/OLBs Coach, and the fourth coach had WRs/DBs/Ks/Ps.
how did you breakdown film? how did you game plan - divide your time? how did you organize practices?
We watched it on Fridays as a team and staff (we played on Thursdays). I watched it myself over the weekends to break it down and figure out a gameplan. I would've loved to get the assistants involved, but for the most part, I couldn't get them to do it. I've been trying to share the load, but they not that interested in doing it and I'm used to doing it myself (even when I was an assistant), so it just seems to go with the territory.
what roles - if any - did your assistants play during breakdown/game plan? what roles in planning practice? what roles in conducting practice?
They had pretty good observations, but like I mentioned in the last section, their feedback wasn't consistently available. Their lack of time outside of practice left them with little role in planning practice, but they knew the basic scheme, so they we're able to run their positions through drills for 10-30 minutes each practice. When we split for Team O/Team D, I would change up who went where and they would be forced to call something (four coaches, four squads on the field at a time). I gave them a card and let 'em at it. Sometimes I would tell them to rep this play or that one more than usual.
on game nights - how did you handle in-game adjustments on both sides of the ball? what roles did your assistants play on game nights?
In-Game Adjustments
Defense...I have been doing the defense for years, so the adjustments are minimal. I also feel as though our defense is ready to handle whatever is thrown at us from the moment we get on the field, so there aren't many adjustments to make. The biggest thing is making sure the players are doing their assignments.
Offense...We do our best to keep the playbook minimal (for us and for the players). Other than that, it's just being completely comfortable with what you do if this or that arises. I have my coach's play card arranged by series. I also have notes on there to run a certain play if they are giving us this or taking that away.
Injuries...This is an issue that many may not expect to throw them, but no matter how many depth charts I do, I still get thrown for a loop when a couple of versatile players go down. I don't have an issue with finding a replacement for the players, the problem is finding/remembering the best possible combination in a short amount of time while trying to coach and call plays for both sides of the ball.
Coaches' Roles
I call the offense and handle most substitutions, all subs must go through me. When I did it myself, I called everything as well as made substitutions.
One of my guys is the DC, he is in charge of defensive play calls, but he was also in charge of watching the OL and deciding if they needed to make an adjustment, which he did a good job with.
Another was in charge of rotating the DL for both teams and WRs for the 7th grade game. He tends to get lost in the game and forgets to do this, so I have to remind him quite often to make some changes.
The other coach has to watch the 8th graders while the 7th grade plays and he does the WR rotation in the 8th grade game (did I mention we play our games back-to-back on Thursdays). He is also in charge of the kicking tee and game ball (we tried to find a kid to do it, but I had to put this coach in charge of seeing that it got done, so he eventually just had to take care of it himself).
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Post by gapshoot76 on Apr 21, 2011 8:31:50 GMT -6
I love what you all are saying by creating this coaching progression. Here's the deal, I'm just now getting the opportunity to do this. I've just gotten rid of 2 guys that have been there for 17 and 18 years... dead weight! I'm filling those with guys who are awesome individuals, eager to learn, but don't have a lot of experience. My OL and DL coach wants nothing to do with calling varsity on Friday nights, although he is my Head JV and DC at the Soph. level. My other paid assistant would be a freshman coach, who knows the game very well, but has been around for a long time and doesn't want to be back at the varsity level. He is although an asset to our program because he is a motivator, and a great recruiter in the hallways. So, with all that being said, one of those new hires that don't know much about football will be a JV OC, but now you see why I don't trust them at the varsity. I'm getting this "coaching progression" in place, but it's going to take a year or 2 to actually get the knowledge base.
I've had thoughts of relieving the DC role to one of those assistants since we run a very simple 4-3, and then just take over the OC spot myself, but that just hurts personal interest a little since i love the defensive side of the ball so much.
New questions for those who have done this before...
What problems would I encounter by doing both? What should I expect in game planning, or for me which I'm more worried about, on Friday nights between substitutions, adjustments, being able to coach kids up?
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Post by coachmoore42 on Apr 23, 2011 7:06:05 GMT -6
I've had thoughts of relieving the DC role to one of those assistants since we run a very simple 4-3, and then just take over the OC spot myself, but that just hurts personal interest a little since i love the defensive side of the ball so much. I know this wasn't your actual question, but reminded me of how I got there. When I took over, I too was a defensive specialist (5 years as a DC, 1 as an OC, at that time). Both my principal and AD said the HC better be calling the offense, or it better be someone who is really good. Their reasoning was, if the boosters/parents question the offense, it doesn't look good for the HC. Just a thought for you to ponder. What problems would I encounter by doing both? What should I expect in game planning, or for me which I'm more worried about, on Friday nights between substitutions, adjustments, being able to coach kids up? I coach middle school, so "coach 'em up" is our main concern. I would suspect that adjustments would be your top one, unless you sub often. If your philosophy is to sub often, I would try to adjust it. Without worrying about subs (except when you have to) you can surely make adjustments, and hopefully have enough time remaining to "coach 'em up" as need be. |
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