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Post by coachcb on Apr 10, 2011 12:35:37 GMT -6
I am coaching the throws right now in our field events and the HC and I had a discussion yesterday that wasn't bad, but it brought some things to light for me.
I have three throwers that work hard and who have steadily improved in their events from the start of the year. None of them have thrown before and one of them could make it to the state meet if he continues to work hard.
However, there's those two and then there's everyone else.. Those two listen very well, work hard and WANT to get better. The rest of them have been using track as social event. I initially put an equal amount of time into each thrower but I have been starting to favor the kids that are working hard because I feel the other five-six of them are wasting my time. I spent a lot of time trying to get them going but they either don't care or they're throwing so they don't have to do a running event. So, they really only get individual attention when they're in the ring throwing. But, even then, I can only tell them to "open up their hips" (after drilling it for 10 minutes outside of the ring) so many times before I want to scream.
The HC pointed out that the other five-six weren't really making any strides. I told her that I putting alot more focus into the kids that want to improve; the rest of them drag us down. She didn't exactly agree with me but understood where I was coming from. Now, I have never been like this in football; I have always spread my focus as evenly as possible.
Has anyone else found themselves in this situation when coaching an individual sport? I know there is a team aspect to track and field and I actually feel like I am doing more for the team by focusing my attention. The three that are dialed in are scoring us points.
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 10, 2011 13:15:32 GMT -6
I'll definitely put more effort into the kids who are receptive to it. I'll try and break through to a kid who isn't into it, but eventually, there's a point of diminishing returns. It's nothing to do with talent, if my best player has bad technique and won't listen, I'm not going to waste time working on him, I could be working on someone else who will benefit from it.
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Post by fantom on Apr 10, 2011 13:55:55 GMT -6
I am coaching the throws right now in our field events and the HC and I had a discussion yesterday that wasn't bad, but it brought some things to light for me. I have three throwers that work hard and who have steadily improved in their events from the start of the year. None of them have thrown before and one of them could make it to the state meet if he continues to work hard. However, there's those two and then there's everyone else.. Those two listen very well, work hard and WANT to get better. The rest of them have been using track as social event. I initially put an equal amount of time into each thrower but I have been starting to favor the kids that are working hard because I feel the other five-six of them are wasting my time. I spent a lot of time trying to get them going but they either don't care or they're throwing so they don't have to do a running event. So, they really only get individual attention when they're in the ring throwing. But, even then, I can only tell them to "open up their hips" (after drilling it for 10 minutes outside of the ring) so many times before I want to scream. The HC pointed out that the other five-six weren't really making any strides. I told her that I putting alot more focus into the kids that want to improve; the rest of them drag us down. She didn't exactly agree with me but understood where I was coming from. Now, I have never been like this in football; I have always spread my focus as evenly as possible. Has anyone else found themselves in this situation when coaching an individual sport? I know there is a team aspect to track and field and I actually feel like I am doing more for the team by focusing my attention. The three that are dialed in are scoring us points. If the workers are scoring points and have the potential to score more than you're right to work with them. That's the goal-score points. You're not a personal trainer.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 10, 2011 14:30:15 GMT -6
1. I have never really found myself focusing my attention on a few athletes, so this has been kind of strange for me. I will coach the hell out of every kid on the football team; I just discipline them when they're not giving me any effort. A couple of the girls were upset with me (as was the HC) because I go coach up my hard workers at meets. If we have two events going on, I will spend a lot more time (if not all of it) with my kids that are scoring points. I was pretty blunt with them when they brought it up. I told them that I would be more than happy to give them more attention at meets if they'd actually work for me. And, I told the HC that I didn't like going over and coaching them up at meets because, quite honestly, it is embarrassing. And that kind of leads me into my second point.
2. This is the first time I have EVER let my ego dictate what I do in athletics and I don't quite know what to think of it. I HATE being over there when my slackers are throwing because it's a blow to my ego. I hate to admit it, but I don't want to be seen at the shot/disc rings or the javelin field when they are throwing. Like I said, we get our butts handed to us by 50 feet in the jav and disc and 10-15 feet in the shot. But, with that being said, I do have one that is tired of getting her butt kicked and is putting more effort into it.
3. The HC knows where I am coming from but she still doesn't like it. She's really focused on the kids setting PRs (more so than scoring points) and getting better and we're not seeing it out of more than a few. I understand her point of view and I know that they're probably not going to get any better without some focus from me. But, a part of me doesn't really care at this point. We're halfway through the year, they've been screwing around, they're not helping out the team and I don't want to deal with them.
Kind of a rant, I know. But, this is just different for me.
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Post by oguru on Apr 10, 2011 14:37:09 GMT -6
If you are only ocaching the kids you think will be successful, then your doing a disservice as a coach to the rest of your athletes. You as a coach need to find a way to get each and everyone of your athletes ready to go for each meet or game. Not just the good players, but everyone. Thats what a coach does. He coaches everyone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2011 14:50:56 GMT -6
I don't understand why you are "embarrassed" when your lesser talented athletes throw. I can assure you that everyone around the rings arent thinking about YOU while watching one of your kids throw.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 10, 2011 15:33:38 GMT -6
If you are only ocaching the kids you think will be successful, then your doing a disservice as a coach to the rest of your athletes. You as a coach need to find a way to get each and everyone of your athletes ready to go for each meet or game. Not just the good players, but everyone. Thats what a coach does. He coaches everyone. It's not the ones that I THINK will be successful; it's those that want to learn and work hard. I have one right now that probably won't score us any points but she works hard at whatever she does and is coachable. She continually improves each week. I have several that I KNOW could be successful but they don't want to put in the energy. So, let me pose you a question. Am I doing a disservice to those athletes that want to get better and compete by continuing to split my attention evenly? Bear in mind, that in the beginning of the season I was focusing on the kids that were lagging.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 10, 2011 15:37:34 GMT -6
I don't understand why you are "embarrassed" when your lesser talented athletes throw. I can assure you that everyone around the rings arent thinking about YOU while watching one of your kids throw. Yeah, I have a hard time with this. Like I said, it's the first time I have ever felt this way about anything in athletics. It's mainly the attitude that bothers me; they throw like crap and think it's a joke. I feel that it reflects badly on me as a coach; I haven't managed to foster a competitive attitude in them. BUT, I don't know how to do that at this point.
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Post by fantom on Apr 10, 2011 17:28:01 GMT -6
If you are only ocaching the kids you think will be successful, then your doing a disservice as a coach to the rest of your athletes. You as a coach need to find a way to get each and everyone of your athletes ready to go for each meet or game. Not just the good players, but everyone. Thats what a coach does. He coaches everyone. I don't completely agree. Taking it back to football, by the latter part of the season everybody gets equal reps adn coached in individual period. When it comes to group and team work, though, the only people getting reps are those in or close to the 2-deep. There's no time for everybody to get reps. Here, CB says that he's been working with them but some aren't working to get better. Well, it's getting to be time for districts pretty soon. I see nothing wrong with helping those who want it and those who can help the team.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 10, 2011 17:47:34 GMT -6
I don't understand why you are "embarrassed" when your lesser talented athletes throw. I can assure you that everyone around the rings arent thinking about YOU while watching one of your kids throw. Yeah, I have a hard time with this. Like I said, it's the first time I have ever felt this way about anything in athletics. It's mainly the attitude that bothers me; they throw like crap and think it's a joke. I feel that it reflects badly on me as a coach; I haven't managed to foster a competitive attitude in them. BUT, I don't know how to do that at this point. Keep in mind, one of the good things about track, is also one of the bad things about track. It is individual sport. There is nowhere for those kids to hide. So part of their attitude could be a 'self defense" mechanism for lack of a better term. It is all out there for everyone to see.
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trojan
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Post by trojan on Apr 10, 2011 18:00:10 GMT -6
The rest of them have been using track as social event. Uh, yes. This is what I see much of the time. (I don't coach track, just get this general impression from seeing some track practices and meets. Perhaps my eyes deceive me.) If I were in your shoes, I'd be focusing on the kids that show apparent effort. Not skill, but effort. It is tough to work with football players who don't want to be out there, so I'd find it a challenge to spread equal time & advice, for the course of the whole season, for the kids just chillin' at track practice. If the HC is all about personal bests, however, I think that you should follow her lead. It is her show. You'd expect the same from your assistant coaches if you were the HC, right?
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Post by coachcb on Apr 10, 2011 18:37:07 GMT -6
The rest of them have been using track as social event. Uh, yes. This is what I see much of the time. (I don't coach track, just get this general impression from seeing some track practices and meets. Perhaps my eyes deceive me.) If I were in your shoes, I'd be focusing on the kids that show apparent effort. Not skill, but effort. It is tough to work with football players who don't want to be out there, so I'd find it a challenge to spread equal time & advice, for the course of the whole season, for the kids just chillin' at track practice. If the HC is all about personal bests, however, I think that you should follow her lead. It is her show. You'd expect the same from your assistant coaches if you were the HC, right? I spend my time with the kids that work hard and they're all improving. Two of them will score points for us and one of them is improving at a fast rate. She won't score any points for us and that's fine; she wants to get after it. I don't know what to do about my HC's philosophy on personal bests. The kids need to put SOME effort into it to improve but they don't. So, it's kind of a Catch-22.
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Post by jrk5150 on Apr 10, 2011 20:17:11 GMT -6
Then change your conversation points with the HC - because your take on this has nothing to do with points. In fact, I'd say you're probably more in agreement with her than not. If those kids had any interest in setting personal bests, then you'd be working with them.
So in fact, I'd be telling her that you agree, you are looking to help every one improve and set PB's, as long as they are willing to work for it. Has nothing to do with "performance" at all. Which is probably why she's not completely disagreeing with you.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 10, 2011 20:27:04 GMT -6
Then change your conversation points with the HC - because your take on this has nothing to do with points. In fact, I'd say you're probably more in agreement with her than not. If those kids had any interest in setting personal bests, then you'd be working with them. So in fact, I'd be telling her that you agree, you are looking to help every one improve and set PB's, as long as they are willing to work for it. Has nothing to do with "performance" at all. Which is probably why she's not completely disagreeing with you. Well, her and I have talked about that but I imagine me talking about scoring points is muddying the waters. But, she's hard to get a read on some days. She coached track at the college level for a long time and is very competitive; more so than I am when it comes to track. It's not a bad situation between her and I, at all. We're both a little frustrated with the total lack of effort from some of the kids. But, we have a senior out who has never thrown and he's really come a long way. He's improving by 3-4 feet every week in shot and, if he continues to do so, we'll do very well in district and divisionals. We'll see what happens; I'll make one last ditch effort this next week and see if I can get the rest of them a little more motivated. But, if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Districts are right around the corner and I WILL focus all of my attention on the hard workers in the weeks rolling up to that meet.
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Post by k on Apr 10, 2011 20:28:52 GMT -6
Here our track program is for casuals. There are always a handful of hardcore "track kids" but other than that small group track is mostly for people who want to come to practice once or twice a week and do their things. That is what the track coaches want. Well that lets my football players lift for the majority of track practice so it works for me. =)
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Post by coachcb on Apr 11, 2011 8:48:29 GMT -6
Here our track program is for casuals. There are always a handful of hardcore "track kids" but other than that small group track is mostly for people who want to come to practice once or twice a week and do their things. That is what the track coaches want. Well that lets my football players lift for the majority of track practice so it works for me. =) That's kind of where we are at with our track program. But, the HC and I both get frustrated because we're the second largest school in our class yet we can only manage to get 15 kids out for track. And, about half of them are die-hards. But, I like track for the very same reason; the football players hit the weights a few days a week along with the normal track stuff.
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Post by superpower on Apr 11, 2011 10:50:15 GMT -6
I am blessed to have the head wrestling coach, the head track coach, the head baseball coach, and the throws coach (track and field) as my assistant coaches. We all work well together and support each other's programs. Also, our head basketball coach was on my staff for 2 years and is now an assistant for junior high football.
Find a way to work together.
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Post by fantom on Apr 11, 2011 10:53:30 GMT -6
I am blessed to have the head wrestling coach, the head track coach, the head baseball coach, and the throws coach (track and field) as my assistant coaches. We all work well together and support each other's programs. Also, our head basketball coach was on my staff for 2 years and is now an assistant for junior high football. Find a way to work together. Where did he say that he doesn't get aling with the HTC?
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Post by coachcb on Apr 11, 2011 11:01:54 GMT -6
I am blessed to have the head wrestling coach, the head track coach, the head baseball coach, and the throws coach (track and field) as my assistant coaches. We all work well together and support each other's programs. Also, our head basketball coach was on my staff for 2 years and is now an assistant for junior high football. Find a way to work together. We work together just fine. We didn't have an argument. We had a professional discussion.
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Post by coachwoodall on Apr 11, 2011 11:51:17 GMT -6
I have coached softball (2 schools), baseball (3x), basketball, and track.
Track was okay, I worked the jumpers. Kids were pretty focused. I didn't have a clue what I was doing. Program was good, not great, just good. We had a couple of volunteers, so we could spread around. Because of that we didn't hang around long enough for practice to be a social setting, it was hit it and get it. The only time kids stood around was if they were waiting on the pad. We were pretty oraganized though, so that helped (especially me)
Basketball was JV, so we didn't have a lot of time in the gym (basically an hour, unless there was an away varsity game we didn't play) Again had to hit it and get it.
Softball, each play was different, but it was not talent but more cultural. One place they would work and took coaching. The other, not as much so. I didn't do as good of a job as the second stop. Too many times practices had to be cancelled b/c of shopping for prom dresses, etc..... It just wasn't important.
Baseball. First 2 stops it was pretty lights out. Kids wanted to work and wanted to win. 1 stop, they had never had a winning season, so they were hungery. 2nd stop winning was expected, and the league we played in was brutal, so you had to work to be even middle of the pack. Last stop, kid wanted to win but that was about it. If you had a Sunday BP session, maybe 3 kids would show. Again I didn't do a good job.
From my perspective, there is both the cultural and coaching aspect. If the kids are used to just hanging around and goofing off, then they will. If the coach makes it important enough (and jives with the community/cultural aspect) it will be important.
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Post by superpower on Apr 11, 2011 13:50:44 GMT -6
I am blessed to have the head wrestling coach, the head track coach, the head baseball coach, and the throws coach (track and field) as my assistant coaches. We all work well together and support each other's programs. Also, our head basketball coach was on my staff for 2 years and is now an assistant for junior high football. Find a way to work together. We work together just fine. We didn't have an argument. We had a professional discussion. Sorry if I misunderstood, Coach.
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Post by coachk98 on Apr 17, 2011 8:43:17 GMT -6
I have 12 throwers 10 of which are FB players & didn't care about throwing. To make improving as throwers more interesting I set marks, 35 + for shot & 100+ for discus. If 7/12 achieved the marks in competition I would take them all for Lunch. There is a local mexican chain here called MOE's. Whenever someone hits the Mark in Practice I call out "thats a MOEs throw". Now the kids echo the call & get very excited about it. In Meets scorers & Non scorers are all interested in improving. The last meet we went against 2 schools that had some very experienced throwers. Even though we weren't close to placing our guys were hootin & hollerin every time we hit a "MOEs throw " to the point the other teams were pulling for the non scorers.
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Post by coachbb on Apr 17, 2011 9:56:47 GMT -6
Track is a different animal than football. Coach up the ones that show effort. You can only take three to an event anyway. Try to get the others to show better technique, but if they aren't going to listen and work then don't stress yourself.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 17, 2011 18:06:56 GMT -6
We're really having a hard time seeing if a lot of the throwers are improving in their events because they aren't hitting the minimum distance. They'll hit four throws, none of them will go the distance and they have their fourth throw measures. Sometimes this is the best of the bunch, sometimes it's not. So, it's really hard to pick up on "official PRs" because their best throws may not be marked..
We had a few slackers set PRs yesterday and I was happy. And several of them got off good throws that WOULD have been PRs but they weren't measured. But, my HC can only record the official marks and she is starting to get frustrated. She's not at the throwing events SEEING that the kids are getting some pretty good marks but they're not getting measured. Some of the official throws were way off the kids' PRs and she was not happy. One of them is a distance runner who throws for sh-ts and giggles and never practices the events.
I don't know what the hell to do here now.. I've been focusing more attention on the slackers; one of them responded and the rest just continue to treat it like social hour. Kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place here; PR throws aren't getting official marks, my socialites are still socialites (after taking away from my focused kids' time) and the HC is p-ssed.
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cmpd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 136
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Post by cmpd on Apr 17, 2011 19:20:13 GMT -6
I have coached track for 10 years both at the Jr. high and high school level and this is what I have done, I make the first part of practice a required time. Then second half I allow kids to leave. If the stay they are going to work and not socialize, or they will be asked to leave. The ones that want to put in the time, regardless of talent, will stay and work and you can give them 100% focus and not worry about the others. I find that some, not all, of the social kids have a change of attitude because and will put in more of an effort.
I was the HC in both cases, your HC may not go for this.
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Post by fballcoachg on Apr 17, 2011 19:40:49 GMT -6
Coach, is track something you can live without doing? If so then finish out the year and leave it at that, I completely understand being frustrated with the situation and possibly with how you feel about coaching it but it may be time to just count the days and chalk it up as an experience. If you want to keep coaching track then it would have to be something you would have to talk with the HC about preferably after the season and explain why things are the way they are.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 17, 2011 20:51:21 GMT -6
Coach, is track something you can live without doing? If so then finish out the year and leave it at that, I completely understand being frustrated with the situation and possibly with how you feel about coaching it but it may be time to just count the days and chalk it up as an experience. If you want to keep coaching track then it would have to be something you would have to talk with the HC about preferably after the season and explain why things are the way they are. I really enjoy coaching track but this has been a whole new experience for me. I have been successful in football and track everywhere I have gone; except at my current school. I can handle it more in football because I am building a program and enthusiasm seems to be running pretty high right now. We'll be solid next year. However, this stuff with track is a whole new frontier for me. The track program has been hurting for a long time now. But, it's the way the spring is around here. Basketball season gets over and the kids disappear. Going to a meet and having one or two throwers hit the minimum (much less place) is a hard pill to swallow. I had one thrower with some experience but she decided that going to AAU basketball tourneys was more important to her. Pretty sad; she was doing really well in meets; placing and scoring us points. Now she's traveling within a three state area and playing on a team that hasn't won a game yet. I know where my HC is coming from; we've both been involved in very good programs and now it is quite the opposite. She will take a step back here pretty quick and see that the throwers are improving. We're inching closer and closer to that minimum distance in the throwing events. We have a solid male thrower who will score some big points for us in districts. BUT, we have also talked about the fact that it's very hard to coach "desire", especially in track. These kids would have quit other sports a long time ago because they wouldn't be playing.
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Post by kcbazooka on Apr 18, 2011 5:07:09 GMT -6
ok, i'll be a devil's advocate. Maybe you need to do a better job coaching/motiviating your underachievers to work harder. you may not be as esily let down if it was a backup football player that wasn't working hard. Prepare them all to be their best...
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Post by coachcb on Apr 18, 2011 8:55:43 GMT -6
Here's my current take on it.
1. The kids that want to work and improve are doing so. "Unofficially", they're setting PRs consistently. Several of them would be "starters" in a team sport, some of them wouldn't. But, those that wouldn't play much in a team sport would still be on the team. You'd be putting a lot of time into them because they're hard workers and deserve it. They're reliable depth.
2. The kids that haven't put in a lick of effort since the start of the season would have a) quit in a pure team sport, b) not even gone out because it's too much work or c) been kicked off of the team. They are the kids we would have told to either get their sh-t together or get out a long time ago. They're still out because they're throwers; they do a little bit of conditioning and lifting during the week but spend the majority of the time throwing. We have had more than a few sprinters and distance runners quit because they realized that track workouts require effort.
Coaching the throws can be difficult because they really are very technical. I have several kids that picked up on the footwork and have been throwing from the spin in both shot and disc in competition for awhile. The rest have struggled to get the footwork down and everyone does the footwork drills daily. Some of them work hard at it and are content to throw from the power position until they feel comfortable with the spin. And, that is what I tell the kids; they can give the spin a chance in competition when they feel comfortable. But, I have several that just refuse to put in the energy to learn the fundamentals. It's the equivalent of an offensive lineman blocking with their fore arms when you drill using hand punches daily. It drives me NUCKIN' FUTS.
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Post by airman on Apr 18, 2011 10:27:35 GMT -6
Coachcb,
i used to be a teacher and now I am in business, mainly self employed.
what you are doing is nothing different then they do in the business world. businesses coach up those who want to be there and let go the ones who are merely just putting in the time for a pay check.
In the animal kingdom mothers nurse in the order of strongest to weakest. the lions share of the milk goes to the strongest.
only humans try to make equal all people, except all people are not equal. how many times have you see victory go to the lesser athlete who worked harder then the talented athlete.
Sadly our education system tries to bring up the fairness doctrine which setting kids up for failure.
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