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Post by blb on Apr 6, 2011 7:06:24 GMT -6
Whenever politicians get involved it seems the teaching profession and by extension public education takes a step back wards.
If you're not teaching Math or Science it's almost as if you're devalued these days because every kid is supposed to go to a four-year college and then to work at NASA, Microsoft, IBM or the like.
When I was teaching Shakespeare, Poetry, even American Literature I felt as obsolete as a character in a "Twilight Zone" episode.
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Post by fantom on Apr 6, 2011 8:14:45 GMT -6
If you're not teaching Math or Science it's almost as if you're devalued these days because every kid is supposed to go to a four-year college and then to work at NASA, . NASAs laying people off.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 6, 2011 10:32:08 GMT -6
dcohio, am I correct in understanding that in Ohio, you can't fail a kid at all? so, if he shows up maybe half the time, he gets moved along to the next teacher next year? and without a tracked system, all your kids all end up in the same final year classes, regardless of whether they busted their behind or slept through four years? how do you give a mark to a student that has done nothing? I must be missing something here. All I know is I'm grateful to have earned every credit I ever got. Not an Ohio rule. It's a new...former special ed band teacher turned principal initiative. The "no homework" policy is in the student hand book. Our kids are graded on what they do do. So if you come one day turn in the assignment that day...guess what, you got an A. 10/10. It's a joke. I am really really happy to be out of here. It sucks. We have managed to square apathy. Don't worry so much, coach. We're math teachers; we'll always have a job. LOL. We're the most treasured of all the "day care" positions open.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 6, 2011 10:35:57 GMT -6
ESL/ ELL and SPED kids have been getting the sort end of the stick a lot lately. These programs are often understaffed and underfunded, especially in "urban" (inner city) schools, at least in my neck of the woods. Instead of providing the resources (money, training, and staff members) to these programs the teachers are pushed to produce greater test results with fewer resources. In some instances, these programs are treated as day care for "undesirables" who will muddy the test scores. Also, I have seen a decline in the perceived importance of government and social studies courses in general. Parents and students often feel that all they are doing is learning useless facts about dead people and administrators care less about these programs since they are not part of the AIMS, WCKE, or other federal and state tests. They're talking about cutting them COMPLETELY around here.... Man, that's scary. Goes against the entire purpose of NCLB; districts are intentionally "leaving kids behind". But, at least the kids will always be able to expand their horizons through useful electives like Pottery, Beading/Jewelry, Art 3 and 4, etc..
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 9, 2011 18:06:12 GMT -6
Some of the problems- pereceptions are self inflicted : www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/06/20/copy/pension-rules-allow-educators-to-double-dip.html?sid=101www.observer.com/2011/opinion/double-dipping-teachers-cost-nyc-more-just-moneyjacksonville.com/news/georgia/2011-04-06/story/georgia-senate-looking-teachers-double-dippingStill impossible to fire in many areas- even for over the top incompetence: www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08/31/090831fa_fact_brillHere in Nebraska- same thing a LOT of teachers "retire" at age 52, draw the majority of their pay and 100% fully funded benefits from that districts pension system, then go to the adjacent district work there- then eventually draw a second pension from there. All the while making it tougher for newly graduated teachers to find a job. Most average folks in the private sector arent retiring at age 51-52 etc and are contributing and saving for their own retirement- funding their own "benefits" and of course able to be fired for incompetence etc Ive worked with some fantastic committed teachers, Ive also worked with some other guys: PE class 2 days in a row- sat in on all 7 periods Did 10 minute presentation on what Weight Lifting is and how it may benefit some There were 2 PE teachers- 1 on duty, one off- they switched off each perod. When 1 wasnt working he was in this little office reading the paper. For the remaining 30-40 minutes of the class, the kids played pick up basketball. Obviously 2 guys doing the job of 1. The only interaction I saw of the 2 teachers- they were offering each other advice on how to get more time off- Each had maxed out their 10 "sick" days, they were researching if they could get bereavement leave for the death of an ex inlaw or Uncle on the mans wifes side. They were of course being paid the same amount of pay as the hard working committed teachers I had worked with the previous month from a different school. The sense of entitlement left a very bad taste in my mouth. OTOH my dad missed a single day of work in 40 years due to illness and I missed 3-4 in the last 20 years- Just something I didnt feel good about observing. Is this anecdote any worse than all of the CEO's getting bailed out after crushing a financial system ...and still receiving excess payment?
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Post by coachcb on Apr 10, 2011 10:38:01 GMT -6
davecisar:
I have seen some horrendous PE teachers; I student taught with one who stuck me with her classes along with my "mentor" teacher's classes. But, it was "just PE", no one cared and everyone let it slide. I actually wanted to teach PE/Health and they expected me to just roll out a ball.
But, these PE teachers are slowly going away; they're retiring and schools are continually cutting back on the PE/Health positions. And, districts are not dishing out tenure or even holding onto PE/Health teachers the way they used to. We struggle to find teachers down here but our middle school PE teacher's job is on the line because she sits on her a-- all day and kicks out a ball. Finding another teacher to fill her position will be difficult if she is canned but it's looking like it's going to happen.
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Post by 42falcon on Apr 10, 2011 12:41:22 GMT -6
Health/PE stand alone jobs are few and far between here. This isn't so bad a good "teacher" with an athletic background can get the job done and still be versitile enough to teach a core area.
I am one of those guys. Our school board hired me to teach: SS, ELA, Sci, Bio & PE. I have a BA in History minor in BIO, & BEd & huge athletic background & experience. Basically it screws the guy who can only teach 1 area.
Things are not that bad. Work hard and teach things workout!
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Post by warrjsmith on Apr 18, 2011 9:11:30 GMT -6
It's pretty bad here in Texas, our district is "Chopping" the fat not Trimming it.... They closed an entire intermediate school down and are letting people go left and right. Its rough all over these days.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 18, 2011 10:07:34 GMT -6
It's pretty bad here in Texas, our district is "Chopping" the fat not Trimming it.... They closed an entire intermediate school down and are letting people go left and right. Its rough all over these days. If the country wants to treat education like a business then they had better be ready to deal with the negatives of running said business poorly. Honestly, very few folks want to go to college and jump through all of the hoops in an education program and put up with all of this crap. Especially folks looking into teaching PE. It's a tough decision; fight for a half time PE/Health job or go become a personal trainer..
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 18, 2011 10:11:52 GMT -6
Someone here suggestedthat if we want to treat our teachers as babysitters, we should pay them like babysitters: 5 $/hr 4 hrs/day 30 kids/day = 600 $/day 5 days/wk =3000 $/wk 40 wks/yr =120,000 $/yr
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Post by coachcb on Apr 18, 2011 10:22:22 GMT -6
Someone here suggestedthat if we want to treat our teachers as babysitters, we should pay them like babysitters: 5 $/hr 4 hrs/day 30 kids/day = 600 $/day 5 days/wk =3000 $/wk 40 wks/yr =120,000 $/yr Lol.. I'm just going to open my own tutoring/daycare/therapy office/Child Protection Agency site; I'll be rolling in cash and doing the same job. Actually, I really don't have room to complain because I work in a very small school. My class sizes are nothing compared to others around the state, my kids are good, and my administration is awesome. But, there is a small trade-off; I live in the absolute middle of nowhere. Seriously, the earth is flat and I watch the sea monsters on the edge of the map all day.. LOL
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Post by coachklee on Apr 19, 2011 10:18:56 GMT -6
Here's my "real world analogy" of NCLB. Let's say you're the foreman of a construction crew. Your boss tells you that he's setting a new quota of houses to build/side/roof (etc) and that you are responsible for meeting it. That's a good thing; people need to be held to standards and high ones at that. You manage a group a crew of employees, but, there's a kicker. You are solely responsible for meeting that quota; you can't hold your employees accountable if they are doing a poor job. You go to leadership workshops, bust your hump and find a way to motivate about 85% of your employees; they really get after it. BUT, you've still got that 15% that screws off, doesn't come to work (etc) and they are dragging the quota through the mud. And, to make matters worse, that quota gets bigger every single year but your funding for the building sites is decreasing. Now, if you could just hold your employees accountable for their poor performances and lack of work ethic, you'd be more likely to make that quota. And, to make matters worse, the company keeps telling all of the employees that they can all become the CEO of a major company some day regardless of their work ethic. Best explanation of the current state of education in America that I have yet to read! It is frustrating that I am still "responsible" for the 10-20% of students that choose to always screw off or worse yet, not show up 20 or more days out of the 180 day school year. Very frustrating! As far as our school district is concerned, our Sup. said about $1,000,000 in cuts was needed for next year. I think that I'm going to be ok because like coachcb, I'm a math teacher and nobody else in the district is certified in math. Education has definitely been more frustrating than I anticipated...thank goodness I have some aspect of football that I can focus on and control year round!
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Post by coachcb on Apr 19, 2011 10:46:47 GMT -6
We have a real problem with attendance around here and not just because kids are screwing around. We have all kinds of strange school-sponsored trips that just kill our academic week. All of our juniors left for a week to go whale watching in Seattle. Student council went to New York City for six days... I teach in a Native school and it's Pow-wow season; all kinds of kids are gone for that. And, of course, they HAVE to take a personal day the day after they get back.. Now, you combine that with athletics and the school is a friggin' ghost town some days. We have kids that have missed nearly twenty days of school; just for school sponsored stuff..
I used to get really frustrated with this but I have just come to accept it.. The math department got HAMMERED about our CRT scores... So, we pulled up the attendance list of those kids that were "below proficient"; every single one of them had missed over ten days of school this semester. Our response to our curriculum guru was pretty simple; 'they ain't here, then they ain't learnin'."
But, it is what it is. I imagine the rest of the nation is going to mirror my current teaching gig within a few years. Our administration has just conceded to the fact that we do our best but that there are far too many factors for us to control. The rest of the country is going to have to figure it out eventually because the "them teachers suck n' didn't know how ta teach me" excuse isn't going to fly in this economy.
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Post by coachklee on Apr 19, 2011 11:17:15 GMT -6
But, it is what it is. I imagine the rest of the nation is going to mirror my current teaching gig within a few years. Our administration has just conceded to the fact that we do our best but that there are far too many factors for us to control. The rest of the country is going to have to figure it out eventually because the "them teachers suck n' didn't know how ta teach me" excuse isn't going to fly in this economy. Don't want to turn this into a political debate, but if kids continue to learn that failure...repeated failure...and acceptance of failure is ok, the result is LOSERS. Maybe we are as fault as educators, but it seems like way to large of a group of students expect that all their needs and WANTS will be taken care of for the rest of their life. Their excuses will keep the economy exactly as it currently is... I get so ticked when kids at school tell me how their mom or dad is getting some sort of disability insurance when I see the parent walking around fine at the grocery store or anywhere out in public. Meanwhile, there's a show on TLC about a guy with both legs missing that installs satellites! Laziness, addiction and some of the alleged "psychological" disorders do not deserve an automatic pay check! I do feel for unemployed people...especially those with kids, but why should they have an unlimited number of unemployment checks coming...if you want work, there is work available...maybe it doesn't pay like the old job you had, but if you are actually valuable to another company you'd find a job with comparable wages. I suppose that this hijacks the thread some, but that is what I see as the biggest problem at my current school, with the current education system and with the larger overall economy and government system. Anybody that argues that some of the government programs/systems in place aren't already socialism needs to explain to me where the 15% of my pay check goes! Maybe I see most of it back indirectly...especially as a teacher (maybe public education is not necessary if people would value their children's future and were able to keep more of their income). I do always wonder what percent of taxes the average tax payer sees back and how much wealth is transferred to lazy/addicted people who pay NOTHING. I need to go to a different forum because this has me way to agitated right now!
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 19, 2011 11:27:57 GMT -6
15% taxes... Ha!
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Post by coachcb on Apr 19, 2011 11:30:35 GMT -6
I recently talked to a sports psychology professor I TAed for back in the day and he gave me a very good example of how negatively NCLB was affecting the nation.
He said that before 2003, having issues with parents at the college level was unheard of. Students would gripe but that was the extent of it. However, he told me that he has been getting more and more "complaints" from parents of COLLEGE STUDENTS since NCLB popped up. Now, if that doesn't tell you something about the state of the nation, nothing will... Can you imagine getting a phone call from a 20 year old student's parents, whining about how you are teaching a college course??
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Post by dubber on Apr 19, 2011 13:02:29 GMT -6
So, we pulled up the attendance list of those kids that were "below proficient"; every single one of them had missed over ten days of school this semester. Our response to our curriculum guru was pretty simple; 'they ain't here, then they ain't learnin'." . Bingo. The school I coach at is on probation. The #1 thing they have targeted to turn it around is attendance. We have great admin people who will stay on top of it......after so many unexcused, they have a meeting with the probation officer. The next time, they go to juvy for the weekend. Bottom line, VERY FEW of the kids coming through the system lack the ABILITY to pass these standardized tests..........and if they aren't missing double digit days per semester, they will probably "get it". I guarentee you the apathetic ones are not on the perfect attendance lists. They don't care because they aren't invested (sound familiar?), and if they MUST show up every day, eventually they will start playing ball. But when I can miss a couple of days, get behind, and know iI'm going to pass, my apathy becomes a cop out. On another note, I am so glad I decided not to become a teacher. The meritocracy of the private sector is comforting.
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 19, 2011 13:15:34 GMT -6
Seriously? You're going to send kids to juvvy for the weekend? Awesome!
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Post by dubber on Apr 19, 2011 13:49:34 GMT -6
Seriously? You're going to send kids to juvvy for the weekend? Awesome! They are merely enforcing the truancy laws.......
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Post by airman on Apr 19, 2011 14:44:18 GMT -6
I am no longer an educator but I am a businessman and to be honest the manufacturing segment of this country does not want smart kids.
I have a close friend who was a plant manager. He moved his way up over a 22 year career from line worker to Plant Manager. He was downsized by his company. SO he goes to one of these staffing places to at least get an entry level job. THe staffing agency told him that he was over qualified for line work and at his age hie would be the last person to get staffed as they could staff the jobs with GED or dropouts who would not complain about making only 10 dollars an hour with little or no benefits. Basically he told me the dumbing down of america is what a lot of companies want because they will be happy minions who will not rock the boat.
I believe the greatest threat to this country is not terrorism but brain drain. we already have to import engineers and nurses from indiana. I think our greatest export to the world is our entertainment. not much money to be made for the average joe.
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Post by blb on Apr 19, 2011 14:51:45 GMT -6
we already have to import engineers and nurses from indiana. Wow - we're in bigger trouble than I thought!
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Post by coachcb on Apr 20, 2011 11:31:28 GMT -6
Honestly, our current education policy is just going to create a bigger disparity between the successful and the bottom o' the barrel in this country. More kids are able to get into college but fewer of them are able to graduate because they actually have to WORK at a university. Well, let me rephrase that; graduate with a useful degree; the job market is being flooded with more folks with useless degrees. Degrees that don't make them anymore marketable than they were when they finished high school. A friend of mine graduated with a B.A. in Liberal Studies with an "emphasis in science".... What in the holy-hell does that mean?
So, those students that are motivated and have some semblance of a work ethic (most will have been involved in athletics..) will thrive in the real world. I mean, the standards for becoming an electrical engineer or doctor aren't going to drop but we've lowered the bar enough that fewer kids will make it in those programs. Those kids that have managed to skate through school because of NCLB will be serving burgers long into their Golden Years.
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