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Post by mariner42 on Apr 4, 2011 11:47:09 GMT -6
Teachers (and to lesser extent, administrators) are being held accountable for things over which they have no control. I had, we all had, and now when subbing I see kids whose attitude is "I'm going to fail because I don't care, and you can't stop me." I don't care how many degrees you have, how many years you've taught, how many inservices you've gone to and how much "Profesional Development" you've had - You can't motivate Active Indifference. This is basically describing about 30-40% of my students right now. Poor farmworker community, 95% Hispanic, almost 100% free/reduced lunch, lots of issues going on. There are 3 different "streams" of difficulty, usually: Academic (univ., some technical community college) Applied, (community college, technical apprentice/trades), workplace (basically shop worker, unskilled trade) See, we don't really do this. Example: our school principal has mandated that our kids all take only college prep classes (CA A-G requirements). The result? Kids that haven't passed algebra are now juniors taking chemistry. Of our senior class of about 300-350 kids, we have approximately 30 that were ELIGIBLE to get into the University system. Not guaranteed admission or anything like that, ELIGIBLE. As in, theoretically could get in. The rest? Well, they get a diploma that means they showed up and hand their hands held for four years and no real practical education for what their lives are going to be: difficult and under paid.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 4, 2011 11:52:55 GMT -6
Small class sizes do make a difference and there's no way around it.
Think about the science teacher trying to run a chemistry lab with 35 kids in class. It'll a) be a total friggin' nightmare or b) won't happen at all because it's a liability.
You get 35+ kids in a classroom and your job can turn into worksheet distributor/babysitter in a hurry.
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Post by mattharris75 on Apr 4, 2011 12:07:44 GMT -6
Is this a foreign concept? (Well, obviously it is) It also seems to get more bizarro as you head farther south. I hate to stereotype, but stories of 6-figure coaches with no courseload and "redshirted" 12 year olds (read: wasting a year of the kid's life) always seems to come from south of the Mason-Dixon. Honestly, neither of these situations are all that common down here. You may see some isolated examples of a 'mississippi redshirt' here or there (Rural areas and 'football factories'), and you're not likely to find many 6 figure coaches with no teaching load outside of the real football factory schools either. I think those are the kinds of stereotypes about southern football that get a little blown out of proportion. Do they happen? Yeah. But they're not the norm. And with regards to stadiums, some of the big schools have really nice ones, but again it's not the rule. Ours is nice because it's new, but it's no palace. And it is shared with the soccer teams. In our city, all the big 6A schools actually share 2 stadiums. I believe it's 6 schools. They have a 'primary' stadium and a 'secondary' stadium. The primary stadium is large and has a turf field, but it's old. The secondary stadium is small and a dump. And this is the most affluent city in the state of Alabama. Of course, there are no football factories in this part of the state either...
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Post by gdoggwr on Apr 4, 2011 13:08:43 GMT -6
not to be a jerk, but the first article says right in it that the study was far to small to make any predictions or assumptions in either direction. It also had a lot of anomalous data that couldn't be explained by the class size argument in any way. Then second study actually shows that the test scores were BETTER in schools with smaller class sizes. Which is the opposite of what you are saying.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 4, 2011 13:15:39 GMT -6
Guys, they can do all the studies they want. Smaller class sizes equate to a better education; that's all there is to it.
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Post by airman on Apr 4, 2011 14:12:48 GMT -6
lets be honest here, the United States is being replaced on the world scene because of our high cost lifestyle and lack of education.
The movie Idiocracy is coming to fruition in the good old USA. If the USA is to get back to the top it will be a race to the moon type situation.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 4, 2011 15:28:15 GMT -6
lets be honest here, the United States is being replaced on the world scene because of our high cost lifestyle and lack of education. The movie Idiocracy is coming to fruition in the good old USA. If the USA is to get back to the top it will be a race to the moon type situation. Amen, my friend, amen. But, I do think it will turn itself around once this country starts to get over itself. We need a pure tracked system in education; the rest of the First World utilizes it. BUT, in order to get there, we have to convince folks that the "American Dream" isn't a right; it's something to be earned. Plus, we really need a tracked system because it's becoming increasingly easy to get into college; having a degree won't mean much if we keep going the way we are.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 4, 2011 15:28:37 GMT -6
lets be honest here, the United States is being replaced on the world scene because of our high cost lifestyle and lack of education. The movie Idiocracy is coming to fruition in the good old USA. If the USA is to get back to the top it will be a race to the moon type situation. Amen, my friend, amen. But, I do think it will turn itself around once this country starts to get over itself. We need a pure tracked system in education; the rest of the First World utilizes it. BUT, in order to get there, we have to convince folks that the "American Dream" isn't a right; it's something to be earned. Plus, we really need a tracked system because it's becoming increasingly easy to get into college; having a degree won't mean much if we keep going the way we are.
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Post by fantom on Apr 4, 2011 15:42:06 GMT -6
Guys, they can do all the studies they want. Smaller class sizes equate to a better education; that's all there is to it. Let's do a mini-study using a class load that I actually had. In one of my History classes I had 30 kids. In the other there were 15. Most of the kids in the first class passed the state achievement test. Almost none in the second class did. What the enrollment numbers don't show is that the first class was an Honors class (better thn average but not willing/able to do AP) and the second was a Recycled class (failed the first semester and were redoing it rather than moving on to second semester). More than once there was one kid in that class and seldom was there more than ten. So, statistically we proved that class size doesn't matter.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 4, 2011 16:05:51 GMT -6
not to be a jerk, but the first article says right in it that the study was far to small to make any predictions or assumptions in either direction. It also had a lot of anomalous data that couldn't be explained by the class size argument in any way. Then second study actually shows that the test scores were BETTER in schools with smaller class sizes. Which is the opposite of what you are saying. If you read the second study- again I spent 90 seconds looking for articles- larger study- Significant reduction in class sizes- VERY SLIGHT almost neglible increase in performance- Conclusion was that such a tiny increase wasnt worth the 30-50% increase in costs- Lots of factors in this from what Ive read- class size, not scientifically proven to have any reasonable bearing on outcomes. Yes, a surprise, but true. Japan, Israel, Korea all have significantly largeravg class sizes and better scores than the US.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 4, 2011 18:30:10 GMT -6
Dave, it is important to consider the actual numbers being discussed here, the assessments being used for data, the time span of the research, and numbers involved. You know that I am a "numbers" guy, but as a professional educator, I think it is important to realize that one of the PROBLEMS is that we are becoming data driven--yet people don't know how to interpret the data.
For example, it is important to realize that many "standardized tests" aren't longitudinally standardized. For example, in 3rd grade, it may emphasize different parts of English language arts than in 4th grade and 5th grade. So a student may drop from "proficient" to "approaching proficiency" simply because of the test. The students mastery of material didnt change..the test did..from 3rd to 4th grade.
Also keep in mind that these "studies" are discussing small reductions in class size, not necessarily "SMALL" class size.
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Post by davishfc on Apr 4, 2011 21:46:06 GMT -6
But, I do think it will turn itself around once this country starts to get over itself. Yes, this country getting over itself will be key to turning it around. BUT, in order to get there, we have to convince folks that the "American Dream" isn't a right; it's something to be earned. I couldn't agree more with this statement. The false sense of entitlement that permeates our society is truly dumbfounding. www.aspeneducation.com/article-entitlement.html Plus, we really need a tracked system because it's becoming increasingly easy to get into college; having a degree won't mean much if we keep going the way we are. Some institutions of higher learning are allowing students in more readily. Therefore, not just teachers, but professors are also noticing this false sense of entitlement in their students. Earning a degree validates a particular high skill level within a specific field of study. If students are getting in more easily and getting degrees with this false sense of entitlement, then a degree really won't mean anything. That's crazy to think. chronicle.com/article/Students-Should-Check-Their/126890/
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Post by coachcb on Apr 5, 2011 5:53:24 GMT -6
Guys, they can do all the studies they want. Smaller class sizes equate to a better education; that's all there is to it. Let's do a mini-study using a class load that I actually had. In one of my History classes I had 30 kids. In the other there were 15. Most of the kids in the first class passed the state achievement test. Almost none in the second class did. What the enrollment numbers don't show is that the first class was an Honors class (better thn average but not willing/able to do AP) and the second was a Recycled class (failed the first semester and were redoing it rather than moving on to second semester). More than once there was one kid in that class and seldom was there more than ten. So, statistically we proved that class size doesn't matter. You're not just talking about one school; you described two classes with a grand total of 45 kids. I imagine your school works within a certain socioeconomic and racial demographic so we're not getting the whole picture. You have also described serious extenuating factors that are going to affect the results of your study. A reliable and reasonably actual study of this subject needs to cover the entire socioeconomic range with huge numbers of students in a wide variety of communities and schools.
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Post by fantom on Apr 5, 2011 10:25:45 GMT -6
Let's do a mini-study using a class load that I actually had. In one of my History classes I had 30 kids. In the other there were 15. Most of the kids in the first class passed the state achievement test. Almost none in the second class did. What the enrollment numbers don't show is that the first class was an Honors class (better thn average but not willing/able to do AP) and the second was a Recycled class (failed the first semester and were redoing it rather than moving on to second semester). More than once there was one kid in that class and seldom was there more than ten. So, statistically we proved that class size doesn't matter. You're not just talking about one school; you described two classes with a grand total of 45 kids. I imagine your school works within a certain socioeconomic and racial demographic so we're not getting the whole picture. You have also described serious extenuating factors that are going to affect the results of your study. A reliable and reasonably actual study of this subject needs to cover the entire socioeconomic range with huge numbers of students in a wide variety of communities and schools. You didn't seriously think that I meant it, did you?
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Post by coachcb on Apr 5, 2011 10:44:35 GMT -6
You're not just talking about one school; you described two classes with a grand total of 45 kids. I imagine your school works within a certain socioeconomic and racial demographic so we're not getting the whole picture. You have also described serious extenuating factors that are going to affect the results of your study. A reliable and reasonably actual study of this subject needs to cover the entire socioeconomic range with huge numbers of students in a wide variety of communities and schools. You didn't seriously think that I meant it, did you? Sorry, coach, one of the dangers of the internet; no tone.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 5, 2011 10:48:35 GMT -6
On one hand I agree with our governor...in certain aspects. At my current school we are not allowed to give homework, not allowed to show video over 5 minutes in length, not allowed to give worksheets and we are not allowed to fail kids (regardless). I was told to teach math like I had no book and no worksheets. The only thing happenig here is GIVE them the credits and they will figure out how to get them to pass the graduation test later. It sucks here. I am so happy I've already resigned. Lordy... The teachers around here would absolutely DIE without their worksheets and homework assignments. I tend to pull stuff out of my butt on a daily basis but that's because I'm lucky to have over half of my classes in attendance (selling tacos took precedence over Pre Calculus yesterday..). If I was told to teach like I didn't have a book, I'd tell them to get their a--es in the classroom and "teach like there isn't a licensed math teacher in there" because I'd be laughing all the way out the door.
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Post by fballcoachg on Apr 5, 2011 10:52:34 GMT -6
One thing we need to be careful of when comparing our education system to other countries is that not all kids are required to go to school in all other countries. Some countries are also very heavily tracked into programs that fit their strengths. There are also huge cultural differences between certain countries that are ingrained at a young age that are not the norm here. It is not comparing apples to apples really.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 5, 2011 11:04:31 GMT -6
One thing we need to be careful of when comparing our education system to other countries is that not all kids are required to go to school in all other countries. Some countries are also very heavily tracked into programs that fit their strengths. There are also huge cultural differences between certain countries that are ingrained at a young age that are not the norm here. It is not comparing apples to apples really. EXACTLY! And, that is a point that everyone around here makes in staff meetings. My best and brightest student right now has absolutely no desire to go to college even though he is very capable. I've been on him all year about going to school to be an engineer; he doesn't want anything to do with it. He plans on working with his father as a journeyman and eventually becoming an electrician when he graduates this year. So, he has wasted a lot of time over the last four years; he could have spent the last year or two working through his apprenticeship and hitting the road running next year. But, we won't get a tracked system until we change the definition of the "American Dream" and how it is attained. NCLB is teaching kids that they can blame the education system (and everyone else) for the rest of their lives when they don't become self-made millionaires at 19.
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 5, 2011 11:11:41 GMT -6
dcohio, am I correct in understanding that in Ohio, you can't fail a kid at all? so, if he shows up maybe half the time, he gets moved along to the next teacher next year? and without a tracked system, all your kids all end up in the same final year classes, regardless of whether they busted their behind or slept through four years? how do you give a mark to a student that has done nothing?
I must be missing something here. All I know is I'm grateful to have earned every credit I ever got.
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Post by airman on Apr 5, 2011 12:58:38 GMT -6
A friend of mine who worked his way up from line worker to plant manager over 25 years got downsized this past year. So he goes to one of these staffing companies where they staff for industrial companies. after two months of not getting any call back he went into the office where this nice lady sat him down and discussed the realties. He was willing to take any job in a factory and work his way up. she told him and I quote " he would be one of the least likely people to be staffed because they could fill all the entry level factory positions with GED people who would simple be happy working on the line and not expect to move up" To me this is sad because it seems companies do not want anyone who can think for themselves anymore. just show up and be a robot.
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Post by CoachFetty on Apr 5, 2011 15:07:13 GMT -6
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 5, 2011 18:15:37 GMT -6
So, the worst school in the most trouble needing the most help gets its funding cut? I can see how the administrator would panic to raise graduation rates, and the easiest way is to pass everyone, whether they like it or not, but as a teacher, what can they do to you if you've got tenure and a pair of balls?
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Post by fantom on Apr 5, 2011 18:29:10 GMT -6
So, the worst school in the most trouble needing the most help gets its funding cut? I can see how the administrator would panic to raise graduation rates, and the easiest way is to pass everyone, whether they like it or not, but as a teacher, what can they do to you if you've got tenure and a pair of balls? Harrassment. Involuntary transfer. Crap schedules. They can fire you for insubordination if they want to push it.
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trojan
Junior Member
[F4:wingtcoach.com] [F4:wingtcoachdon]
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Post by trojan on Apr 5, 2011 19:02:53 GMT -6
but as a teacher, what can they do to you if you've got tenure and a pair of balls? In Ohio, the governor can get the state's legislature to pass something like Senate Bill 5, which can eliminate tenure. Oh, and collective bargaining. But at least they took back the stuff about jailing teachers who strike (for now).
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Post by coachcb on Apr 5, 2011 19:07:47 GMT -6
Small class sizes do make a difference and there's no way around it. Think about the science teacher trying to run a chemistry lab with 35 kids in class. It'll a) be a total friggin' nightmare or b) won't happen at all because it's a liability. You get 35+ kids in a classroom and your job can turn into worksheet distributor/babysitter in a hurry. I heard a rumor that Detroit has cut so far back on teachers they're moving to holding classes with 60+ kids in them! That is happening in PE classes in various states. The schools are more than happy to take the NCLB hit if they can cut costs by canning PE/Health teachers.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 6, 2011 6:02:27 GMT -6
Some of the problems- pereceptions are self inflicted : www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/06/20/copy/pension-rules-allow-educators-to-double-dip.html?sid=101www.observer.com/2011/opinion/double-dipping-teachers-cost-nyc-more-just-moneyjacksonville.com/news/georgia/2011-04-06/story/georgia-senate-looking-teachers-double-dippingStill impossible to fire in many areas- even for over the top incompetence: www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08/31/090831fa_fact_brillHere in Nebraska- same thing a LOT of teachers "retire" at age 52, draw the majority of their pay and 100% fully funded benefits from that districts pension system, then go to the adjacent district work there- then eventually draw a second pension from there. All the while making it tougher for newly graduated teachers to find a job. Most average folks in the private sector arent retiring at age 51-52 etc and are contributing and saving for their own retirement- funding their own "benefits" and of course able to be fired for incompetence etc Ive worked with some fantastic committed teachers, Ive also worked with some other guys: PE class 2 days in a row- sat in on all 7 periods Did 10 minute presentation on what Weight Lifting is and how it may benefit some There were 2 PE teachers- 1 on duty, one off- they switched off each perod. When 1 wasnt working he was in this little office reading the paper. For the remaining 30-40 minutes of the class, the kids played pick up basketball. Obviously 2 guys doing the job of 1. The only interaction I saw of the 2 teachers- they were offering each other advice on how to get more time off- Each had maxed out their 10 "sick" days, they were researching if they could get bereavement leave for the death of an ex inlaw or Uncle on the mans wifes side. They were of course being paid the same amount of pay as the hard working committed teachers I had worked with the previous month from a different school. The sense of entitlement left a very bad taste in my mouth. OTOH my dad missed a single day of work in 40 years due to illness and I missed 3-4 in the last 20 years- Just something I didnt feel good about observing.
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Post by CoachFetty on Apr 6, 2011 6:31:28 GMT -6
but as a teacher, what can they do to you if you've got tenure and a pair of balls? In Ohio, the governor can get the state's legislature to pass something like Senate Bill 5, which can eliminate tenure. Oh, and collective bargaining. But at least they took back the stuff about jailing teachers who strike (for now). True... hopefully this will be on referendum on the November Ballot.. I'm not a teacher or state employee but my brother and his finace are .. this will kill them... she teaches at pickerington north and is already looking at a RIF
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Post by formrbcbuc on Apr 6, 2011 6:50:38 GMT -6
ESL/ ELL and SPED kids have been getting the sort end of the stick a lot lately. These programs are often understaffed and underfunded, especially in "urban" (inner city) schools, at least in my neck of the woods. Instead of providing the resources (money, training, and staff members) to these programs the teachers are pushed to produce greater test results with fewer resources. In some instances, these programs are treated as day care for "undesirables" who will muddy the test scores. Also, I have seen a decline in the perceived importance of government and social studies courses in general. Parents and students often feel that all they are doing is learning useless facts about dead people and administrators care less about these programs since they are not part of the AIMS, WCKE, or other federal and state tests.
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 6, 2011 6:51:16 GMT -6
I used to think it was embarassing that some provinces here had non-standardized curricula, so the district you came from had a major impact on what and how well you learned certain senior subjects.
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Post by formrbcbuc on Apr 6, 2011 6:54:45 GMT -6
If the State Supreme Court does not kill Governor Walker's bill, Wisconsin will become an educational backwater. I do not understand how they think they can attract the best and the brightest with even lower pay, no collective bargaining, and massive benefit cuts.
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