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Post by emptybackfield on Feb 25, 2011 21:03:59 GMT -6
A coach in our area resigned from a pretty good job sighting, "time devoted to teaching vs. building a successful football program." Have any of you guys ever had conflicts with your principals regarding this same issue? What is fair to be expected of a head coach in regards to teaching schedule? Professional development expecations? Should a teaching head coach be held to the exact same standards as other teachers? Of course, it's easy for one to say that they want and expect to be held to the same standards, but most times it's just not practical with the time commitment to being the head coach of a football program.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 22:31:37 GMT -6
Maybe I'm just cynical, but whenever I read that reason or the "spend more time with family" reason, I think it's a pretty safe assumption the coach has just tired of coaching but doesn't want to admit it publicly. So, he gives a reason that sounds more professional and appeasing to the public.
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Post by emptybackfield on Feb 25, 2011 22:58:51 GMT -6
Maybe I'm just cynical, but whenever I read that reason or the "spend more time with family" reason, I think it's a pretty safe assumption the coach has just tired of coaching but doesn't want to admit it publicly. So, he gives a reason that sounds more professional and appeasing to the public. Huh? I'm not really following you here. |
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Post by coachorr on Feb 26, 2011 0:59:28 GMT -6
Yeah, I have been held in Spec ed meetings during practice and stuff like that. Happens all the time.
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Post by emptybackfield on Feb 26, 2011 8:58:14 GMT -6
Yeah, I have been held in Spec ed meetings during practice and stuff like that. Happens all the time. You're the head football coach and you've missed practices or parts of practices to sit in SPED meetings? |
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Post by huthuthut on Feb 26, 2011 10:34:36 GMT -6
It's amazing how different head coaching positions can be. On our schedule next year one head has four academic classes (out of 6 period day). Another has all athletic wts/condition classes and an athletic secretary to handle calls and paperwork.
I've always asked to have the same resources as everyone the administration expects me to compete with. Dont put me in the Kentucky Derby on a mule and expect great results.
It's also amazing how the newly hired coach frequently gets perks his predessor never had. It's like the administration is admitting the last guy didn't have enough resources (but we fired him anyway).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2011 13:02:59 GMT -6
Empty, let me try this again. For some reason I was having trouble deciding how to word my last post and cluttered it.
Essentially, I think "spend more time with my family" or "focus on teaching responsibilities" are reasons that get told to the media. I think more often than not, there's different reasons for why the coach resigned.
Maybe that has nothing to do with this thread, but it was the first thing I though of when I saw the quote in your first post.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 26, 2011 16:03:59 GMT -6
Administrations use that strategy all the time to get rid of coaches.
Load his @ss up with a bunch of preparations and extra B.S. duties when he's already doing more work than anyone else on campus, including the principal. Hold his feet to the fire on his grading methods, make sure he's teaching things that are being tested by the state and make him show positive results, and visit his classroom over 1000 times in a year to make sure he's up teaching the whole time. Make him teach six academic classes, take away his planning period, cut 1/4 of his coaching supplement, and schedule all of your meetings during his practice time. Also, make sure he is outside his door monitoring the hallway between each class, make sure he is monitoring the men's bathroom between each class, make sure he is dressed in board approved dress code clothing, and make him monitor the lunchroom everyday. Furthermore, make sure he is at his post at 7:45 every morning, and the fact that he arrives at 5:45 every morning to conduct morning workouts is immaterial. Lastly, have someone continuously watching him to document any slipups.
Welcome to my world, gentlemen. I've taken it all because I'm too f$#king stubborn to give them the satisfaction of knowing they have run me off.
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 26, 2011 16:12:20 GMT -6
I'm not sure about the standards down south, I know they are less than up here in the northeast, but here you absolutely are expected to be a effective teacher and are held to the same standards of non coaching teachers. Up here they don't hire coach/teachers. They hire only teachers.
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Post by davishfc on Feb 26, 2011 16:48:22 GMT -6
Administrations use that strategy all the time to get rid of coaches. Load his @ss up with a bunch of preparations and extra B.S. duties when he's already doing more work than anyone else on campus, including the principal. Hold his feet to the fire on his grading methods, make sure he's teaching things that are being tested by the state and make him show positive results, and visit his classroom over 1000 times in a year to make sure he's up teaching the whole time. Make him teach six academic classes, take away his planning period, cut 1/4 of his coaching supplement, and schedule all of your meetings during his practice time. Also, make sure he is outside his door monitoring the hallway between each class, make sure he is monitoring the men's bathroom between each class, make sure he is dressed in board approved dress code clothing, and make him monitor the lunchroom everyday. Furthermore, make sure he is at his post at 7:45 every morning, and the fact that he arrives at 5:45 every morning to conduct morning workouts is immaterial. Lastly, have someone continuously watching him to document any slipups. Welcome to my world, gentlemen. I've taken it all because I'm too f$#king stubborn to give them the satisfaction of knowing they have run me off. "Illegitimi non carborundum" jp, This is unbelievable  I'm upset for you. I can't believe you've tolerated all of this. Have you been able to be competitive with your time occupied in such a way? Have you considered being a head coach elsewhere? I mean if the administration is not going to make any exceptions for you as Head Football Coach and, it's keeping you from being able to compete against the coaches who do have the support of their administration, you may want to seek opportunities with other programs. JMO. Now I don't have anywhere close to the extremely positive situation a lot of these coaches on here have, but I can't even imagine the negative situation you're in. The administration can't possibly have high expectations of you with those types of responsibilities during the school day. Unreal. Good luck to you Coach. Sounds like you could use all the luck that could possibly come your way. |
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Post by emptybackfield on Feb 27, 2011 8:55:59 GMT -6
Wolverine- no worries, I just wasn't following you. I get what you're saying now.
JP- that is f-ing ridiculous man. You deserve better than that.
Spos- From my experience here in Missouri, HEAD football coaches are hired because they're good football coaches, not because they're Horace Mann in the classroom. Now, if two equal football coaches applied for the same job and one was the better teacher, that would probably be the deciding factor. Assistant coaches really have to get their foot in the door teaching first. I realize I'm a teacher first because teaching pays 85% of my salary, not coaching.
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Post by saintrad on Feb 27, 2011 11:38:14 GMT -6
If we are expecting our players to be student-athletes then you are a teacher-coach. HS football is not a place to make a living, but it is your teaching salary that gives you a living. Such it up because us Jr High teachers have 6 classes and then go to the HS to coach and we don't have a secretary or whatever to help us.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 27, 2011 12:16:41 GMT -6
Wolverine- no worries, I just wasn't following you. I get what you're saying now. JP- that is f-ing ridiculous man. You deserve better than that. Spos- From my experience here in Missouri, HEAD football coaches are hired because they're good football coaches, not because they're Horace Mann in the classroom. Now, if two equal football coaches applied for the same job and one was the better teacher, that would probably be the deciding factor. Assistant coaches really have to get their foot in the door teaching first. I realize I'm a teacher first because teaching pays 85% of my salary, not coaching. What I was trying to say is that up here they would never create a teaching opening just to hire a new head coach. If they wanted a HC that did not teach at the school they would hire him, but without a teaching job. Also if the HC does teach at the school, which he does at my school, his load is the same as any other teacher. Our HC's don't get the luxury of a lighter school day work load. |
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Post by saintrad on Feb 27, 2011 14:14:07 GMT -6
If we are expecting our players to be student-athletes then you are a teacher-coach. HS football is not a place to make a living, but it is your teaching salary that gives you a living. Such it up because us Jr High teachers have 6 classes and then go to the HS to coach and we don't have a secretary or whatever to help us. Spoken like an administrator. This reads as if the only place education takes place in the classroom. I make my living as an educator, a math teacher...but I am first and foremost an educator and i would argue an important part of education which is completely neglected by administrators and the majority of teachers is: #1 how to work within a team...aka Teamwork #2 competition - success and failure- how to handle both #3 preparation for a future situation Oh I know all the state scores are important. But do not fool yourself for one minute. In the age we live in there is no reason for a "teachers meeting". There is nothing am administrator can say in person that they cannot say into a webcam and email to everyone. We have email, text, etc etc etc. Truth be told to get what is currently being taught in the majority of classes...neither the teacher nor the students need to physically be in the classroom. There is not a guy on this board nor a teacher/administrator in the school who has not taken at least one online class or PD. Is it not possible for students to log into a net meeting and watch streaming video of you teaching exactly the same material you are teaching while standing in front of them? Yes it is. But now I am getting into the issues with education in general. We have 5 teacher meetings a month. FIVE!!!! We have meeting for the sake of having meetings. Typical over educated, I'm a thinker, egocentric approach. I understand I am hired to be a teacher and I will not neglect that responsibility but do not assume my teaching stops with algebra 1 or that it stops at 2:30 and also do not assume that the 1.5 hour teacher meeting on Monday isn't something I could have easily been told in an email. Yea...I know...how do they know if I read the email. Check out the room at your next teacher meeting...see how many cell phones you see. Having it read aloud does not equate to heard. first off, I am not an admin or care to be one. I still have a backbone and in our district that is removed when become an admin. Never said learning stopped in the classroom. Typical assumption. I agree with 100% dc just stating the fact that we are teachers first (which means we will be blamed for all of society's ills) and that yes we need to take care of the classroom just like we ask our players to do to. |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 27, 2011 16:16:35 GMT -6
I am pretty lucky in that my administration cuts me a lot of slack when it comes to coaching. I was excused from all kinds of activities during the season because of practice. But, teaching is also the first priority(it should- it's your job) for me. I was told that I didn't need to be around for all of the parent teacher conferences this year but I pulled the plug on that. I had my assistants run practice and I met with parents.
But, the same can't be said for my assistants who work at the elementary school. The administration over there demands that they stay until 4:30pm (45 minutes into practice) for the weekly teacher meetings. One of them isn't even a contracted teacher; he's a classroom aid and substitute (paid hourly). I made a brave attempt at getting them out of the meetings and I'm lucky I still have all of my fingers.
But, this is also why you need to have your bullsh-t detector up and running when you interview for positions in any field. But, I think it's especially true as a coach because the school administration can make the season a living hell.
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Post by emptybackfield on Feb 27, 2011 16:22:37 GMT -6
If we are expecting our players to be student-athletes then you are a teacher-coach. HS football is not a place to make a living, but it is your teaching salary that gives you a living. Such it up because us Jr High teachers have 6 classes and then go to the HS to coach and we don't have a secretary or whatever to help us. No one is saying teachers shouldn't handle their business in the classroom. I simply asked what is fair schedule wise, etc to expect of a head football coach. I teach social studies for six periods at a middle school and then drive over the high school to coach. However, I'm not the head football coach. |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 27, 2011 16:42:17 GMT -6
If we are expecting our players to be student-athletes then you are a teacher-coach. HS football is not a place to make a living, but it is your teaching salary that gives you a living. Such it up because us Jr High teachers have 6 classes and then go to the HS to coach and we don't have a secretary or whatever to help us. No one is saying teachers shouldn't handle their business in the classroom. I simply asked what is fair schedule wise, etc to expect of a head football coach. I teach social studies for six periods at a middle school and then drive over the high school to coach. However, I'm not the head football coach. In my experience, those coaches that have a "lighter" schedule such as teaching weight training all day either have alot of experience as a teacher and a coach. If you're certified in PE and you've been teaching and coaching for a long time, it makes sense to most administrations to give you the weight training classes. Now, IMO, the only time an administration is being unreasonable is when they're asking for a lot out of you after the school day is over. It's pretty simple; they're paying you to coach, practice starts after school so expecting you to stay after for staff meetings isn't kosher. My principal sends me an email detailing the staff meetings the next morning and asks me if I had an questions/comments/concerns. |
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celtic
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Post by celtic on Feb 27, 2011 16:44:30 GMT -6
But, this is also why you need to have your bullsh-t detector up and running when you interview for positions in any field. But, I think it's especially true as a coach because the school administration can make the season a living hell. Coaches, Not to hijack the thread but... I'm finishing my certification program in the next month or so. I currently am a varsity assistant coach at a high school in my town. I would love to stay on coaching there but am not sure that there will be any teaching openings in my area at this school. Anyways, I'm looking for suggestions on how to approach this when I interview for jobs coming up. I really want to stay on coaching where I am. Our practices start at 4 so I think it could be done. Do I bring this up in an initial interview? Once they offer the job? Any advice from everyone would be appreciated. |
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Post by Coach Huey on Feb 27, 2011 16:49:20 GMT -6
remind them that if they expect you to do 100% of the job then they must give you 100% of the resources...
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Post by cbroughton on Feb 27, 2011 17:13:05 GMT -6
I have done both a hc and admin. I believe that good coaches are good teachers. Instead of teaching x's and o's you teach what ever subject. I also believe that admin. Can help coaches out as in giving them planning the period before practice if athletics are in school day so that the coaches can prepare for practice and have everything ready to go. But remember in almost every state you are living on your teaching salary and not you coaching stipend.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 27, 2011 17:18:12 GMT -6
But, this is also why you need to have your bullsh-t detector up and running when you interview for positions in any field. But, I think it's especially true as a coach because the school administration can make the season a living hell. Coaches, Not to hijack the thread but... I'm finishing my certification program in the next month or so. I currently am a varsity assistant coach at a high school in my town. I would love to stay on coaching there but am not sure that there will be any teaching openings in my area at this school. Anyways, I'm looking for suggestions on how to approach this when I interview for jobs coming up. I really want to stay on coaching where I am. Our practices start at 4 so I think it could be done. Do I bring this up in an initial interview? Once they offer the job? Any advice from everyone would be appreciated. If it's me, I don't even touch it. If you're not coaching at that school then you can't ask for the schedule flexibility that you would have if you were coaching there. I got my a-- in a sling a few times when I was subbing because of this very issue. The elementary school jobs stipulated that you stay on campus until 4pm when you were subbing, even when school got out at 3pm. Basically, as a sub, you sit there watching the paint peel for an extra hour. So, I walked up to the front desk as soon as I got them kids out the door and asked the secretaries to sign my time sheet. The secretaries went and grabbed the principal in two occasions and I got my a-- chewed for "trying to leave early". I explained to them that I was a coach in the district and that I needed to be treated like a teacher in that position. I was told that I could "go the library and shelve books" or "help them with lamination". It was fine, I just picked up sub jobs at schools where the administration was accepting. Both of those schools called me repeatedly, begging me to come and sub and I always politely turned them down after that. |
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Post by realdawg on Feb 27, 2011 18:06:50 GMT -6
Our HC teaches 2 classes a day, football wt. training, 3rd and 4th period. I teach History 3 periods a day, but my principal does cut me some slack and give me 4th period planning during the season. I cant help but believe that some of the reason he always honors my request for 4th planning is because I consistantly have some of the highest test scores in our county and he wants to keep me happy.
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mojoben
Sophomore Member
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Post by mojoben on Feb 27, 2011 19:07:52 GMT -6
I've seen it happen many times and namely with my father.
He was a very good high school golf coach for many years and also coached numerous others sports through the years. He went from being a teacher to a tech coordinator. When he became the tech coordinator he only coached golf by then. He never had issues before with time constraints from his tech job and coaching after school until there was a group of spineless grade school teachers the felt they needed him to stay later after school to fix their problems (more times than not they weren't smart enough to plug in their computer). So he was forced to resign from being coach to cater to their needs after Administrative pressure.
Guess what... the coming Fall the grade school teachers quit complaining and asking for his service after school! So now he was no longer the golf coach and he was still not helping the teachers after school either (remember now they don't need his help all of a sudden). Luckily for him he was able to find another tech coordinator job that allows him to coach again and at a better local school district. In the long run I just think the grade school teachers were jealous he was able to go play golf after school while they had to sit in their classrooms until 4 or after.
This doesn't happen most places, but you do get some school districts that are two faced about coaches. They hire you as the coach knowing your going to be at practices or games after school, but then pull extra crap on you after the fact to compromise your coaching gig. Might as well just hire all non-teaching coaches then?
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Post by coachcb on Feb 27, 2011 19:46:09 GMT -6
I love teaching math, but the issues brought to light in this thread are the very reasons why I picked up my math cert. Math teachers are in high demand around here and job security is a given. People don't want to play nice; I'll go somewhere else. You want have to run me out; I'll find the door.
Luckily, I'm not in that situation right now; my administration is great.
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Post by emptybackfield on Feb 27, 2011 20:05:25 GMT -6
I think that some principals/administrators that haven't been in the arena have no idea what kind of commitment it takes to coach football. If they did, no one in their right mind would load a coach down with a ridiculous teaching schedule.
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mojoben
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Post by mojoben on Feb 27, 2011 20:21:24 GMT -6
Outside of some parts of the country or very select jobs in many states, the coach works a LOT more than what they get paid. Most places coaching is just a small supplement to their actual teaching duties.
I think some Administrators that haven't been a football coach (or a activity that takes a lot of time) don't understand the amount of personal time and money a coach has to put in year around on their own. For many, they aren't coaching for the money in the first place.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 27, 2011 21:39:11 GMT -6
I think that some principals/administrators that haven't been in the arena have no idea what kind of commitment it takes to coach football. If they did, no one in their right mind would load a coach down with a ridiculous teaching schedule. It all just depends on the administration. Something to bear in mind;m administrators are going to be the one's getting canned when schools aren't NCLB compliant in a few years. So, there's usually a good reason if you're getting hammered in the classroom. Unless you're in JP's shoes, then you've just got an administration with an ego issue. Poor b-stard.  |
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Post by emptybackfield on Feb 27, 2011 21:57:18 GMT -6
Unless you're in JP's shoes, then you've just got an administration with an ego issue. Poor b-stard. Our old DC took a HC job at a school about 10 miles away. He's a social studies teacher and said a principal has been in observing him 17 times already this school year. |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 28, 2011 9:27:29 GMT -6
Unless you're in JP's shoes, then you've just got an administration with an ego issue. Poor b-stard. Our old DC took a HC job at a school about 10 miles away. He's a social studies teacher and said a principal has been in observing him 17 times already this school year. My principal popped dropped in unannounced pretty consistently until I got my first evaluation. I haven't seen him since. But, my AD also told him "he needed to pay attention to me in the classroom". Wasn't real happy about that one but he's the one that looks stupid now. |
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Post by emptybackfield on Feb 28, 2011 18:48:46 GMT -6
When my Dad was a superintendent (he was a former head football coach before that, so he understands the demands) he had to fire a very successful coach for not showing up to teach his class. It was unbelievable, this guy would have a football player pass out worksheets to his first three classes and not show up until 4th hour. I guess this dude thought he was Bud Kilmer from Varsity Blues and could do whatever the hell he wanted since he won a couple 2A state titles in Missouri. It's guys like that dude that make coaches look like a bunch of lazy dbags.
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I'm upset for you.
