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Post by davishfc on Jan 13, 2011 7:53:36 GMT -6
This is an idea for a question that I had while reading a thread in the "Offensive Drills" section on pulling offensive linemen. Anyway, just like some coaches try to do too much with scheme and X's and O's I think there is another group of coaches who try to do too much with technique. Isn't the goal to teach our players the necessary technique to execute a particular assignment? Isn't anything past that overkill and not "keeping it simple" for our players (K.I.S.S.)?
I'm talking specifically in terms of step-progressions for offensive lineman techniques or backfield meshes or pass drop footwork on offense. Also, step-progressions for defensive linemen techniques, LB and DB footwork on run and pass reads. Do some coaches try to coach too much to the point that it slows their players down?
Is there a threshold you pass when coaching technique where you begin to do more harm than good? Honestly, I see this happening probably more often with position group coaches who have not coordinated a side of the ball before. They invest almost their entire process into coaching their group that they can end up doing too much with their time. Just the way that coordinators tend to think more about the scheme and less about the technique. Obviously a balance between scheme and technique is the absolute best situation.
I completely understand there are specific techniques that must be taught in a progression to be executed correctly. I'm am not in any way undermining the value of position group work or repping technique. I'm a head coach who coaches position groups on both sides of the ball. Technique (the HOW) is extremely important, however, I don't want my players bogged down with too much technique stuff. So I have a point at which I tell myself and my other position group coaches...enough is enough.
With that said, I'm an Economics teacher, so I'm asking if there is a point of diminishing returns regarding coaching technique? Is it possible to over coach, which I believe it is, and at what point does that occur within your program? Thanks in advance Coaches.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 13, 2011 7:56:37 GMT -6
You mean like when my defensive tackle applies shutdown pass coverage to their guard?
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Post by davishfc on Jan 13, 2011 8:04:29 GMT -6
You mean like when my defensive tackle applies shutdown pass coverage to their guard? Wasn't even a zone blitz was it Coach? Amazing how players can make up assignments and create techniques on their own sometimes. Sometimes it can be a positive (finding a way) and sometimes it can be negative (doing it their way). These are the types of signals we get that remind us coaches that they're just kids. "I know we didn't coach that" is a phrase uttered when watching film after games by many staffs in the nation I'm sure. Maybe even some of the ones that win consistently...just super-talented players making things happen on occasion. "Not the way we taught that but we'll take it" or maybe they're a "just the way we drew it up" coaching staff. Depends on the ego I suppose. Anyway back to your situation...was your guard down field? If so, you are your opponent are coaching too much to those kids...LOL
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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 13, 2011 8:32:52 GMT -6
I very much believe so..In my mind, it goes, assignment, motivation, technique....If a kid isn't TOTALLY confident in his assignment, it doesn't matter his technique....#2 I have guys that have great technique in drills and they just suck..they just don't have football sense
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Post by blb on Jan 13, 2011 8:39:33 GMT -6
There's a right way and a wrong way to do everything, so we spend at least 20 minutes a day on fundamentals and techniques.
Now having said that - there is such a thing as "over coaching" and the most important thing is getting the job done, or production. Kids are different and if they find a way to get it done that isn't textbook, well, this isn't Figure Skating - there are no style points in Football.
It's analogous to having a kid who's hitting .350 but has a little hitch in his swing. You start coaching him to get rid of the "flaw" and pretty soon he's hitting .275.
Coach Yeoman used to say they would try to get their Quarterbacks to do everything naturally that they could, and then if they couldn't do it, they would coach 'em.
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Post by lochness on Jan 13, 2011 8:42:39 GMT -6
I think that you can over-coach and over-complicate techniqe as much as you can over-do scheme, certainly.
I also think that technique is but one part of execution. You can't have technique without an understanding of application. You need to understand how the technique fits into the scheme and the "team concept" and you need to understand how it works at full speed in a game situation.
I think over-attention to technique runs the risk of sacrificing these key elements in the teaching progression.
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Post by blb on Jan 13, 2011 8:43:02 GMT -6
I very much believe so..In my mind, it goes, assignment, motivation, technique....If a kid isn't TOTALLY confident in his assignment, it doesn't matter his technique....#2 I have guys that have great technique in drills and they just suck..they just don't have football sense I think this is a point well-taken. One of my mentors, was our Offensive Coordinator and Line coach when I played in college, said "Teach them WHO to block first, then HOW to block them (techniques)."
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Post by Coach.A on Jan 13, 2011 8:58:32 GMT -6
I've made the mistake of going crazy on technique as a position coach. I was not letting the position group advance in scheme until we mastered the previous skill (very stubborn). It may sound good in theory but it hurt us because we didn't get to rep our base stuff enough early in training camp (because it wasn't installed). I think team reps are extremely important to work on timing and cohesiveness even though technique may not be perfected.
Now I teach all of our base plays as soon as possible. The technique is sloppy at first, but we allot a set amount of time each practice to work on the fundamentals and techniques to master our base plays. As the season progresses, our technique in these base plays improves. We never waste time teaching techniques that aren't relevant to our system. Your drills must carry over to your game play.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Jan 13, 2011 9:22:56 GMT -6
We definitely over-coached our mesh between the qb & fb from the gun. I wanted to make sure that we did all we could to avoid putting the ball on the turf during the give/keep phase that our kids began to dread our indy mesh period.
The mesh turned out great (never fumbled the exchange all year) but rep after rep after rep started getting our qb's in lazy habits of not attacking the los without the ball during indy b/c it became sprint after sprint.
Generally, I'm a "less is more" guy but I think we got to a point of "less is less" in the sense that we could have been better at pass blocking with our fb or adding more complements like the shovel.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jan 13, 2011 9:33:30 GMT -6
It depends on how great a teacher you are. Some would say that if the drive block has twenty coaching points, and I can get kids to learn and perfect that technique in a practice, then it's not over coaching it's great coaching!
With that said, I am with you in keeping technique simple. I focus on the key points of the technique. College and pro coaches can work on that stuff. I'm coaching basic technique, attitude, and effort. That's it.
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Post by phantom on Jan 13, 2011 10:12:48 GMT -6
This is an idea for a question that I had while reading a thread in the "Offensive Drills" section on pulling offensive linemen. Anyway, just like some coaches try to do too much with scheme and X's and O's I think there is another group of coaches who try to do too much with technique. Isn't the goal to teach our players the necessary technique to execute a particular assignment? Isn't anything past that overkill and not "keeping it simple" for our players (K.I.S.S.)? I'm talking specifically in terms of step-progressions for offensive lineman techniques or backfield meshes or pass drop footwork on offense. Also, step-progressions for defensive linemen techniques, LB and DB footwork on run and pass reads. Do some coaches try to coach too much to the point that it slows their players down? Is there a threshold you pass when coaching technique where you begin to do more harm than good? Honestly, I see this happening probably more often with position group coaches who have not coordinated a side of the ball before. They invest almost their entire process into coaching their group that they can end up doing too much with their time. Just the way that coordinators tend to think more about the scheme and less about the technique. Obviously a balance between scheme and technique is the absolute best situation. I completely understand there are specific techniques that must be taught in a progression to be executed correctly. I'm am not in any way undermining the value of position group work or repping technique. I'm a head coach who coaches position groups on both sides of the ball. Technique (the HOW) is extremely important, however, I don't want my players bogged down with too much technique stuff. So I have a point at which I tell myself and my other position group coaches...enough is enough. With that said, I'm an Economics teacher, so I'm asking if there is a point of diminishing returns regarding coaching technique? Is it possible to over coach, which I believe it is, and at what point does that occur within your program? Thanks in advance Coaches. As a longtime OL and DB coach I really don't know what you mean by "too much technique". You mentioned footwork progression. To me it's critical. We do it every fundamentals session. Building technique=building habits. It requires repetition. I often see questions on here about getting the OL come off the ball. There's a simple formula: Footwork+Landmark+Knowledge of Assignment=Takeoff. With DBs, the way I look at it is that they play against some of the best athletes on the field and there's little margin for error. Every edge that they can get helps and that means good technique.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 13, 2011 10:23:56 GMT -6
I very much believe so..In my mind, it goes, assignment, motivation, technique....If a kid isn't TOTALLY confident in his assignment, it doesn't matter his technique....#2 I have guys that have great technique in drills and they just suck..they just don't have football sense I'm with you Coach. I think in terms of the following teaching progression: 1) Alignment - Where to start 2) Assignment - What to do 3) Technique - How to do it 4) Aggressiveness & Speed/Quickness - How hard and fast to do it This basically summarizes my philosophy on this topic. We invest quite a bit of time in trying to get our players "TOTALLY confident" in their alignment and assignment. When I believe they have a true understanding of what they are trying to do, then we progress onto a more deliberate emphasis on technique or how to do it. Once they have that down, now we want them to fly around 100 miles an hour trying to get their assignment accomplished.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 13, 2011 10:44:02 GMT -6
As a longtime OL and DB coach I really don't know what you mean by "too much technique". You mentioned footwork progression. To me it's critical. We do it every fundamentals session. Building technique=building habits. It requires repetition. I often see questions on here about getting the OL come off the ball. There's a simple formula: Footwork+Landmark+Knowledge of Assignment=Takeoff. With DBs, the way I look at it is that they play against some of the best athletes on the field and there's little margin for error. Every edge that they can get helps and that means good technique. I completely agree phantom. Footwork at any position in football is absolutely critical. I understand that. However, I was looking in the Offensive Drills section today and read about a 5-step teaching progression for a shuffle pull. That's 5 steps for 1 OL technique. I'm telling you right now, our guys couldn't handle this. We have almost all two-way players at a small school so we have kids doing a lot of different things. Maybe that's the only difference. If you were two-platooning, I could maybe maybe see justifying teaching a 5-step progression for a single technique. I still wouldn't. But that's just my philosophy. We teach a 2-step progression...position step and power step. A position step to get their body in position to execute their blocking assignment and a power step to reestablish their base. After that, we're running. Is two steps not enough? I believe it is. Do you have to have a 5-step progression to show that you value breaking down and drilling technique on a consistent basis? I don't believe so. This is a classic example to me of the concept of over-coaching. It's like blb said, there is such a thing as "over coaching" and the most important thing is getting the job done, or production. If our 2-step progression allows our players to perform the same technique as the players being taught the 5-step progression then we are able to focus more attention elsewhere. The team that creates more time to emphasize fundamentals across the board will have a greater opportunity to win. They will have the skills to get the job done or produce in more areas than their opposition. JMO.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jan 14, 2011 8:39:42 GMT -6
technique is a practical method or art applied to some particular task. it involves proficiency i.e. a skillfulness in the command of fundamentals. practice greatly improves proficiency.
the more you practice the better you get at the technique.
so, when one asks "can you have too much technique?" they are essentially asking "can you get too proficient at something?"
the answer, is obviously, no.
HOWEVER ... if one were to look at the methods used to practice the technique, then we have a discussion on our hands. a particular task can be broken down so much into smaller parts that it is harder to become proficient at it due to all the details & tasks involved - it limits practice, proficiency, and - bottom line - is inefficient.
so, one can never have too much technique. however, a person can limit their ability to achieve maximum "technique" because the process they are using is flawed in some form - either 'under coaching' or 'over coaching' ... but, there is no such thing as getting too much technique (getting too proficient)
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Post by dsqa on Jan 14, 2011 8:50:45 GMT -6
Not sure there can be an over-coaching of technique, but there can certainly be an "over-talking." Been there, done that.
It has a lot to do with how you package what you teach and deliver it.
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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 14, 2011 8:58:56 GMT -6
Not sure there can be an over-coaching of technique, but there can certainly be an "over-talking." Been there, done that. It has a lot to do with how you package what you teach and deliver it. I think most coaches and certainly I thought this is what he meant..it's almost like asking if you can have too much money..I think we all can get better at any any endevour we pursue..the question is, Is it worth the time spent for incremental improvements..Otherwise, why wouldn't we have 4 hour practices.... at some point we diminish our returns vs time spent
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Post by coachcb on Jan 14, 2011 10:34:37 GMT -6
I believe there is but it's a fine line. It's not something I would ever bring up with my staff as they're young. I think it takes a coach with some experience to really break it down. Here are two examples of changes I made with the OL because I felt I was teaching too much technique:
1. We only use one angle on down blocks: flat down the LOS. I used to have the OL work through several angles but I stopped doing it. We get the job done just fine with one angle.
2. Every OL coach I have ever worked with really pushes guard pulling on sweeps/perimeter plays to find the defender's outside shoulder and turn them inside. Personally, I teach them to just get into the defender, cover them up, and buzz their feet. I tell them to take them where ever they want to go. Generally speaking, we'll run them into the sideline. It's easier to teach our backs to work off of blocks.
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Post by phantom on Jan 14, 2011 10:56:30 GMT -6
I think so. When a player becomes over coached he looks mechanical like he's going to spots. IMO anyway. I agree. Never use technique over production when evaluating players.
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Post by phantom on Jan 14, 2011 11:08:52 GMT -6
As a longtime OL and DB coach I really don't know what you mean by "too much technique". You mentioned footwork progression. To me it's critical. We do it every fundamentals session. Building technique=building habits. It requires repetition. I often see questions on here about getting the OL come off the ball. There's a simple formula: Footwork+Landmark+Knowledge of Assignment=Takeoff. With DBs, the way I look at it is that they play against some of the best athletes on the field and there's little margin for error. Every edge that they can get helps and that means good technique. I completely agree phantom. Footwork at any position in football is absolutely critical. I understand that. However, I was looking in the Offensive Drills section today and read about a 5-step teaching progression for a shuffle pull. That's 5 steps for 1 OL technique. I'm telling you right now, our guys couldn't handle this. We have almost all two-way players at a small school so we have kids doing a lot of different things. Maybe that's the only difference. If you were two-platooning, I could maybe maybe see justifying teaching a 5-step progression for a single technique. I still wouldn't. But that's just my philosophy. We teach a 2-step progression...position step and power step. A position step to get their body in position to execute their blocking assignment and a power step to reestablish their base. After that, we're running. Is two steps not enough? I believe it is. Do you have to have a 5-step progression to show that you value breaking down and drilling technique on a consistent basis? I don't believe so. This is a classic example to me of the concept of over-coaching. It's like blb said, there is such a thing as "over coaching" and the most important thing is getting the job done, or production. If our 2-step progression allows our players to perform the same technique as the players being taught the 5-step progression then we are able to focus more attention elsewhere. The team that creates more time to emphasize fundamentals across the board will have a greater opportunity to win. They will have the skills to get the job done or produce in more areas than their opposition. JMO. It's a teaching progression. You don't practice it the same way all year. As the season progresses, you speed up the practice (at least we do) and only refer to the coaching points if there's a problem (that second-team senior may go to his grave with a serious technical flaw in his drive block). Example: Reach block. We start by teaching it "by the numbers", that is walking them through it step by step, carefully checking every moving part before moving on to the next step. We'll walk through it by the numbers twice, then by the numbers and drive full speed, then reach block full speed. As the season moves on we speed up the process gradually: once by the numbers, once numbers and drive, full speed; then, numbers and drive; then, full speed.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 15, 2011 11:58:15 GMT -6
It's a teaching progression. You don't practice it the same way all year. As the season progresses, you speed up the practice (at least we do) and only refer to the coaching points if there's a problem (that second-team senior may go to his grave with a serious technical flaw in his drive block). Example: Reach block. We start by teaching it "by the numbers", that is walking them through it step by step, carefully checking every moving part before moving on to the next step. We'll walk through it by the numbers twice, then by the numbers and drive full speed, then reach block full speed. As the season moves on we speed up the process gradually: once by the numbers, once numbers and drive, full speed; then, numbers and drive; then, full speed. I understand exactly what you mean coach. It's a teaching progression that evolves with the understanding and proficiency of the players as the season moves forward. Isn't the goal for the players to be as proficient as possible with their technique as early in the season as possible? We create a sense of urgency to learn sound technique in the summer (no spring ball in Michigan) with the guys that show up and obviously during the two weeks prior to our first game week. We need to be at our best as early as possible to be as competitive as we can be in Week 1 when it counts. We play a 9-game season in Michigan and every team that wins 6 games gets into the post-season so being competitive every week is critical. With that said, you stated that you start teaching it by the numbers. So do we. Ultimately my question is... how many numbers is too many for any technique? Also, how many techniques can you teach by the numbers per position? We do not want to coach technique broken down so much by the numbers that the players become like dcohio said "mechanical." We emphasize two steps for most techniques up front on both offense and defense. After that, we are either driving our man at the LOS/running to a 2nd level defender or destroying a block/getting into pursuit. I personally believe the the max for numbered footwork should be three. Anything more, I believe would take kids too long to become proficient at with the timeline we're on with no spring ball and three weeks prior to our first game. Not to mention these players are learning positions on both sides of the ball because we do not have the luxury of two- platooning.
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Post by phantom on Jan 15, 2011 13:09:53 GMT -6
It's a teaching progression. You don't practice it the same way all year. As the season progresses, you speed up the practice (at least we do) and only refer to the coaching points if there's a problem (that second-team senior may go to his grave with a serious technical flaw in his drive block). Example: Reach block. We start by teaching it "by the numbers", that is walking them through it step by step, carefully checking every moving part before moving on to the next step. We'll walk through it by the numbers twice, then by the numbers and drive full speed, then reach block full speed. As the season moves on we speed up the process gradually: once by the numbers, once numbers and drive, full speed; then, numbers and drive; then, full speed. I understand exactly what you mean coach. It's a teaching progression that evolves with the understanding and proficiency of the players as the season moves forward. Isn't the goal for the players to be as proficient as possible with their technique as early in the season as possible? We create a sense of urgency to learn sound technique in the summer (no spring ball in Michigan) with the guys that show up and obviously during the two weeks prior to our first game week. We need to be at our best as early as possible to be as competitive as we can be in Week 1 when it counts. We play a 9-game season in Michigan and every team that wins 6 games gets into the post-season so being competitive every week is critical. With that said, you stated that you start teaching it by the numbers. So do we. Ultimately my question is... how many numbers is too many for any technique? Also, how many techniques can you teach by the numbers per position? We do not want to coach technique broken down so much by the numbers that the players become like dcohio said "mechanical." We emphasize two steps for most techniques up front on both offense and defense. After that, we are either driving our man at the LOS/running to a 2nd level defender or destroying a block/getting into pursuit. I personally believe the the max for numbered footwork should be three. Anything more, I believe would take kids too long to become proficient at with the timeline we're on with no spring ball and three weeks prior to our first game. Not to mention these players are learning positions on both sides of the ball because we do not have the luxury of two- platooning. Your situation is no different from ours. We do not platoon and we have no spring ball. They don't need to be ready on the first day of practice, or the fourth or eighth. They need to be ready for the game. During 2-a-days we have offensive indys every day. We do not stop and wait for them to master a block before we move on. If they don't get it today there's always tomorrow.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 16, 2011 15:40:24 GMT -6
Your situation is no different from ours. We do not platoon and we have no spring ball. They don't need to be ready on the first day of practice, or the fourth or eighth. They need to be ready for the game. During 2-a-days we have offensive indys every day. We do not stop and wait for them to master a block before we move on. If they don't get it today there's always tomorrow. I'm glad to be communicating with a coach about this issue that coaches in a similar situation. I believe factors like two-platooning and spring ball greatly influence how in-depth you can be with techniques within the various position groups. Another factor that will play into how much you can break the various aspects down is the number of coaching staff members you have? We have 5 total for the high school program (4 paid, 1 volunteer). I understand that players do not need to be ready on the first, fourth, or eighth day of practice. But we have a scrimmage on the ninth day so I'd like them to be as prepared and as proficient as possible at that point. Consequently, the eighth day after practices begin is quite crucial. Our team obviously needs to be prepared and proficient for the first game which would be 3 practices and a pre-game practice away after the scrimmage. I understand that finding a balance between creating a sense of urgency to learn and execute yet being patient with the players as they develop is extremely important. We coach our players until they have mastered it and then we continue to coach it. Early in the season, sometimes we have to move on because it's just not happening. There are certain times, however, that I don't easily subscribe to the "if they don't get it today there's always tomorrow." Like say during our first game week. We want our players to be proficient for every game which means we have from when practices begin to that first game to get them prepared for that first game. Chances are if you have too many of those days, the coaching staff needs to reevaluate their teaching progression or the level of difficulty of the technique to begin with. Or they need to assess the level of focus of the team in general because if the players have the ability to master the technique on "before-the-first-game" timeline and they haven't, the environment at practice is clearly not what it should be to create proficiency. But ultimately, from a technique perspective, we teach our players the skills they will NEED in order to execute their assignment within the scheme. More simply put, whatever it takes them to get the job done. Once they have that skill, we move on, once they have their entire skill set, then we work on those nuances that each position encounters in football. Understanding those nuances will allow our players to apply their skill set in more complex scenarios. Technique vs. this blitz or that stunt, etc. To reiterate, you stated that you start teaching certain techniques by the numbers. So do we. Ultimately my question is... how many numbers is too many for any technique? Also, how many techniques can you teach by the numbers per position? We do not want to coach technique broken down so much and so often by the numbers that the players become "mechanical."
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jan 17, 2011 22:47:20 GMT -6
We rep reading screens quite a bit. I love it when a d-linemen says "I read screen" when they were running iso right at him.
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Post by gdoggwr on Jan 27, 2011 11:11:08 GMT -6
I don't think there can be too much technique, but there can be too much talking about technique. No player has ever improved his technique because I talked to him about it (or yelled, etc). They improved when I corrected them and had them practice the corrected technique over and over. I'm sure that most coaches have always know this, but it took my dopy a$$ years to figure out.
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Post by phantom on Jan 27, 2011 11:13:11 GMT -6
I don't think there can be too much technique, but there can be too much talking about technique. No player has ever improved his technique because I talked to him about it (or yelled, etc). They improved when I corrected them and had them practice the corrected technique over and over. I'm sure that most coaches have always know this, but it took my dopy a$$ years to figure out. Coaching on the run is why we get the big bucks.
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Post by gdoggwr on Jan 27, 2011 11:14:20 GMT -6
Another thing I had to learn through failure is you can't work technique in a vacuum. The kids need to know the application/reason for the technique. Sometimes its obvious (if you over stride and lose your base your get you a$$ knocked down), sometimes not so much.
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fred
Freshmen Member
Posts: 34
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Post by fred on Jan 27, 2011 11:26:17 GMT -6
I had 2 thoughts while reading this. 1. Someone once told me it takes 17 full speed perfect reps for a kid to be proficient at a new technique. This is hard to accomplish in most situations 2. When I was a position coach I remember having a kid make a great play and getting on to him about his technique being wrong. The coordinator walked over and calmly explained that technique was very important but thew bottom line was to make plays. Don't take the player out of the football player. Since that time I have used this saying a lot. "That was a great play. Understand you used the wrong technique but you made a play. As long as you make the play great but when you don't your tail is mine."
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Post by sportsleader on Jan 27, 2011 11:31:18 GMT -6
I think where too many coaches go overboard, especially on offense, is the number of different plays, sets, looks, etc. They try to install 100 plays, only execute 10 of them well, and waste so much practice time trying to install more and more ... In my book, as many people have taught me, less is more. Teach your basic plays and demand perfect execution. Simple but perfect execution. Repeat, repeat, repeat. sportsleaderusa.blogspot.com/Virtue=Strength Vice=Weakness
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Post by lukethadrifter on Jan 28, 2011 12:04:39 GMT -6
There is such a thing as too much technique if the player is in a situation to where they are thinking so much that they are not able to cut loose and play.
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Post by CoachCP on Jan 28, 2011 13:54:58 GMT -6
Technique becomes too much when a kid doesn't have a successful situation to use it in.
If I teach the defensive ends a counter inside spin move off an outside rip move and almost all the teams we play run the ball 85% of the time, I have failed and taught too much technique. He probably won't ever have a chance to use it, and probably would have been served better fine tuning his wrong arming or spilling technique.
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