celtic
Freshmen Member
Posts: 86
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Post by celtic on Jan 1, 2011 11:54:38 GMT -6
Curious as to how many of your districts implement drug testing for student athletes? If you have it in place, what are your thoughts on it? How has it worked for you? Has it been in place for years? If not, what were the obstacles in implementing it? Just for the sake of the thread, our problem is more with recreational drug use then steroids or things along that line. In my opinion at least.
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Post by coachdennis on Jan 1, 2011 12:11:55 GMT -6
Celtic, that is my view as well. Everyone wants to focus on performance enhancing drugs, because that is the sexier topic, but the reality is that most kids at the high school level are more at risk of abusing alcohol, marijuana, etc..
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Post by ogre5530 on Jan 1, 2011 12:15:07 GMT -6
We definitely need it at the school I am at. There has been talk for years of bringing the testing in, but it hasn't happened yet and drug use is definitely an issue with our kids. Two of our basketball players just got busted with weed at an overnight christmas tournament!
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Post by mahonz on Jan 1, 2011 12:49:41 GMT -6
Wouldn’t this keep kids from playing sports and further promote the idle hands theory?
Kids are going to experiment. Speaking strictly as a parent, this would be too invasive for my tastes. Let me be the drug police….even if that includes testing at home.
Now if a player gets busted at school for possession....team rules must apply.
My kids are grown so I got them through the stoopid years somehow as my parents generally did for me. I was a handful. My thought process was that my kids were going to be total idiots at times just like me …which they were…so it was my job as a parent to help them minimize their mistakes. Putting that in the hands of a school via testing…no thank you.
If a kid has no home life…well taking sports away from them because of drug testing would be even worse for them I would think.
My thoughts….hope your school isn’t considering this option. I’d be against it at any capacity.
Coach Mike
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celtic
Freshmen Member
Posts: 86
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Post by celtic on Jan 1, 2011 13:05:25 GMT -6
Coach Mike, I can appreciate your views and it sounds like you're the type of parent who would police your own kids. As we all know, others would not. And in some places, sadly, you'd be in the minority. How would you handle my situation? I've been approached by several teachers and school personnel this past season about the rampant pot problem within our program. Not limited to, but including kids smoking prior to games. Not on our watch but school ends at 2:30 and we usually have them report back at 4:30 for a 7:00 kick. I believe whole heartedly in the idle hands theory. But frankly, I have no sympathy or use for kids who are cavalier enough about our program to do this. Furthermore, if a kid gets hurt because he's playing high or in the aftermath of being high, who's head is going to roll? And if I start accusing kids, I'm going to have parents saying that it's not my concern, it's a parenting issue, invasion of privacy, etc. So in your opinion, what do I do? Seems like drug testing in pre season, then randomly throughout the year would solve my problems. Sounds pretty darn good to me.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 1, 2011 13:45:32 GMT -6
Coach
It would be pretty simple for me…I did coach 4 seasons of HS ball and do appreciate everything you guys do. I am a lifer youth football coach now so dealing with drugs is waaaaay down the list.
Anyway, tell them straight up in August what’s up. Getting high means you will not play and let them know you can spot a Stoner a mile away. Whether that is true or not, Stoners are a paranoid bunch. Let them know if any of them show up to any football function stoned there will be a meeting scheduled as a team to decide your fate.
Pier pressure works. Involving the parents or any person of authority will only amp up what the real issue is…bucking the system. It would only take few inquisitions to set the tone.
I would also say that what they do on their own time is their indeed their own business. You are not their parents or the police. It’s all part of growing up. They will get drunk at parties, smoke pot, snort coke, ignore their schoolwork, have unprotected sex, harbor the occasional runaway, get speeding tickets, vandalize public property, loiter at the pool hall, sneak out in the middle of the night, ditch school, skinny dip at the local pool, gang fights at the park….etc.
You know…all of the stuff you tried to get away with growing up.
Just get through to them that it takes a bigger man to play for you…so be one. But at the same time stress that what they do away from the team is on them. Have a gentlemen’s agreement to do the right thing and make quality decisions. You will attract more bees with honey would be my line of thinking.
If they ignore you then that’s on them, not you.
I am certainly no expert on this issue except what I have gone through as a parent. This approach worked for me. All of my kids have their own young families now and none of them do drugs. So I must have done something right. And I will admit, my son played more than one HS football game stoned. He told me this years later.
Again, I am a firm believer that the school has its place and drug testing in any capacity would be the wrong approach. And why test just student athletes? Would'nt you also test the drama club, school newspaper people and the yearbook committee?…etc.
I went to a private HS. Drugs were everywhere because everyone could afford them…especially the designer drugs.
Coach Mike
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Post by los on Jan 1, 2011 18:46:17 GMT -6
Interesting subject.......at the private HS I helped at part time, as an off campus asst football coach...they had mandatory drug tests for everyone, every new school year....students, teachers,administration....they also tested the board members (who set the policy).....so I guess this is one extreme, with the other being "NO" testing of any kind for anyone,under any circumstances.....personally, I wouldn't have a problem with testing athletes as part of a yearly physical, like before the season begins.....to me anyway, participating in an activity that has the risk of bodily harm,to yourself or a teammate, is grounds enough to warrant it.....I'd have to argue that someone who was stoned while performing a one act play in the drama club,typing for the newspaper or taking pictures for a yearbook would be risking bodily harm, course I guess it depends on the props? They don't say "break a leg" in the biz for nothing, lol.....but its not the same as driving a 2 ton vehicle at 60 mph.....working with tools that can dismember and mutilate you.....getting beaned with a fast ball.....or.....doing something stupid and dangerous on the football field, cause you're high or drunk! The lesson should be, if you want to participate in inherently dangerous sports or other activities, you need to be sober.....if you wanna be a stoner, do something else!
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Post by Coach.A on Jan 1, 2011 21:26:44 GMT -6
From my understanding, it cost anywhere from $200 to $1,000 for a standard WADA urine test. Blood tests (more thorough) can cost even more. An average American high school would probably have approximately 300 kids participating in athletics. Do you think spending over $60,000 a year per school on drug tests is a good idea? In my opinion, I would rather have this money spent on educational resources, athletic equipment / facilities, etc. For this reason alone I'm against drug testing high school athletes.
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Post by fballcoachg on Jan 2, 2011 7:42:40 GMT -6
I agree with steelhawk, maybe I'm off on this one but I think it would be counterproductive for monetary reasons and other reasons. I know that we have some kids that partake in smoking pot, not that they tell us but we could make a strong guess, and I think that if they weren't with football they would be with far worse things. It's the same as the gang issue in our school, which is pretty significant. We have some kids that are from gang infested environments and if it werent for football, they would be much more involved in all of those problems, I'm not going to kick a kid off of the team because he eats lunch with gang members. I guess I have a slightly different perspective but with the kids I teach, I'd rather minimalize the negatives in their lives and reach more and hope that they grow enough to remove themselves from the bad things than get rid of every kid that has slipped up. It may be self righteous but we believe that they are better off with us then they are without us.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jan 3, 2011 12:52:37 GMT -6
We definitely need it at the school I am at. There has been talk for years of bringing the testing in, but it hasn't happened yet and drug use is definitely an issue with our kids. Two of our basketball players just got busted with weed at an overnight christmas tournament! So what good would the testing have done? It would've just caught them earlier. Or are you saying that's good?
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 3, 2011 13:24:15 GMT -6
We started drug testing this year. I don't have the policy in front of me, but here is the gist of it: -every athlete on roster is subject to a random test -everyone knows up front that in order to play, you have to consent -names were drawn randomly in the AM, parent notification is attempted by Noon, testng is done immediately after school -athletes cannot check out of school, or it is an automatic test failure -a procedure was already in place as to what the punishment would be, as well as opportunities for rehab/counseling for failures -testing is done weekly, but more names are drawn at the beginning of each sport season to try and 'scare' the kids that they might get caught if they use
This policy was drawn up and worked on over the past year. A lot of research and work was done to make this would go over a smoothly as possible. The money for the test comes from the athletic budget, so no school monies were used. The Board had several community forums so that parents could be privy to the whole implementation process, and for the most part there was widespread support. Currently we are one of the few districts that do this (2 districts in this section of the state that I know of).
We see this as simply part of the price you pay for being part of an athletic team. We don't test performance enhancing drugs, just street drugs. Our approach has been that the testing policy can be the 'cop out' a kid can use to not be cornered into experimenting ("Hey guys, I can't be part of that because I might get tested").
It's way too early to see the effects of whether or not this policy has made an impact on our athletes, so I cannot say if it has had an impact on stopping/curbing drug use.
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Post by coachguy83 on Jan 3, 2011 14:00:44 GMT -6
I graduated from a high school that had random drug testing for several years before they closed. The testing pool was anyone participating in athletics, drivers ed or driving to school. In a school of only a little over 100 students that pretty much included every student. I think the system worked as a deterrent for some kids and others didn't really care since the chances of getting punished under the system where slim to none.
The policy was written so that if I student failed a drug test they would then be retested in the event of a false positive. This was 10 years ago and the type of test they used had a turn around time of 4-6 weeks. Which meant that if you were smart enough to stop using after the first test most drugs would be out of your system before you had to take the second test. The other problem that existed with the system is that there were questions regarding the true randomness of the testing. It seemed that several students were tested repeatedly once they had passed a test while others with less than sterling reputations were never tested. I was tested once and passed with flying colors, but I had to do a lot of studying the night before. I'm just really lucky that they didn't test for beer.
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Post by Coach.A on Jan 3, 2011 15:24:06 GMT -6
We started drug testing this year. I don't have the policy in front of me, but here is the gist of it: -every athlete on roster is subject to a random test We see this as simply part of the price you pay for being part of an athletic team. We don't test performance enhancing drugs, just street drugs. Why only athletes? What does this say about other students and other extra-curricular programs within the school? The fact that you only test athletes and neglect to test for performance enhancing drugs seems odd...almost hypocritical to me. How are the test administered? When I was tested as a player in college, I had a guy sit about 4 feet away from me and watched me pee in a bottle. I had to have my shirt above my nipples and my pants below my knees. I'm not sure how they "supervise" females doing the test, but I'm sure it's also quite awkward. I don't know if parents in our region would be so accepting of this procedure...especially with freshman. Have any parents ever challenged your policy legally? I know that we could never do this in our region because if a parent challenged us in the courts we would lose.
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Post by coachguy83 on Jan 3, 2011 15:41:23 GMT -6
Have any parents ever challenged your policy legally? I know that we could never do this in our region because if a parent challenged us in the courts we would lose. Actually Coach legal precedents lies with the school district on drug testing of athletes. A case regarding this was taken all the way to the Supreme Court and the school won the case. The decision said something to the effect that athletes can be held to a higher standard than other members of the school because playing sports is a privilege and not a right.
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Post by Coach.A on Jan 3, 2011 16:53:04 GMT -6
Actually Coach legal precedents lies with the school district on drug testing of athletes. A case regarding this was taken all the way to the Supreme Court and the school won the case. The decision said something to the effect that athletes can be held to a higher standard than other members of the school because playing sports is a privilege and not a right. Well I'm in Canada Coach, our laws are a little different. How are your drug tests administered? Are they urine samples? Is an unbiased third party conducting the tests? Unless the tests were done in a professional lab, I think a lot of the legal challenges could come from questions regarding the accuracy of the tests not necessarily the fact that they are being conducted.
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Post by brophy on Jan 3, 2011 17:36:02 GMT -6
Who's paying for these tests and what school district is doing so well that this is viable?
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Post by ogre5530 on Jan 3, 2011 19:02:37 GMT -6
We definitely need it at the school I am at. There has been talk for years of bringing the testing in, but it hasn't happened yet and drug use is definitely an issue with our kids. Two of our basketball players just got busted with weed at an overnight christmas tournament! So what good would the testing have done? It would've just caught them earlier. Or are you saying that's good? I'm just stating it's getting to the point where kids are doing it at school related events. Kids talk about it openly and don't really care that teachers, coaches, whomever know about it because they know they have nothing to worry about as far as testing goes at the school. I just like the idea of having this in place because maybe it will deter some kids from partaking. We don't have the luxory of having the parents police it at home as someone stated above. In most cases it's probably happening in some of the homes that the kids live in so unfortunately it's all they know!
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Post by TMGPG on Jan 3, 2011 19:09:04 GMT -6
The school that my brother is at has drug testing and he loves it. He says that the kids are afraid to drink or do anything. That would be nice.
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Post by szimm29 on Jan 3, 2011 19:17:27 GMT -6
We test our kids 1 time a month, athletes only at this time, our school hired a company to conduct the tests which i think is a great idea. This allows the school officials to be nothing more than gophers (go fer this kid go fer that kid). If there is a positive it is then sent off to a lab and reviewed by the lab and a doctor, and reported back to the parent and the school. I can elaborate more if you would like.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 19:56:20 GMT -6
Some schools in IL are well-off but I will make a fairly safe assumption and say that this will never happen in IL due to the costs alone. Unless we eventually get millionaire's donating to our athletic budget, I don't want those funds going to drug testing anyway.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 20:01:09 GMT -6
I will add that legal or not, one parent complaint would probably end the drug testing IF we tried it. We are a co-op program and quite frankly the administrative backbone is pretty weak at the administrating school. For example, we had one parent complaint earlier this year about the PE department's no dress policy...and voila! the whole policy got changed...
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Post by piratefootball on Jan 3, 2011 20:09:24 GMT -6
We have random drug testing for all people involved in extra-curriculars, which includes band, all sports and even student drivers. If a student and parent don't sign it, they don't play. 10 kids are tested randomly each week throughout the year. Seems to work pretty well and couldn't imagine how bad the recreational drug use would be as we still lose a guy for 40% of season every couple years.
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Post by los on Jan 3, 2011 21:06:32 GMT -6
That sounds like a good program coachwoodall......this is public school right? The school I mentioned in my post was a very small "private" school......I was gonna talk to my buddy on the board there and try to get a copy of their "policy" to help get celtic started........like......how its paid for.....who has access to the test results.....then, their procedure for dealing with folks that fail the test....stuff like that....but, I wasn't sure how a private schools policy would transfer over to a public school? Your deal sounds like just the trick! Reguardless of whether you test your athletes or not, I hope someone in a mentoring position will take the time to give these kids the lowdown on drug testing, in the world outside of academia......just about every big company will drug test you before they hire you....along with a physical, background check and proof of a valid drivers license.....some will test you randomly......others will test you if you have an accident of some kind on the job.....in the past 6 yrs at the place I work, I've seen probably close to 2 dozen or more young folks apply for open positions with the company and 75% of them either fail the drug test ,have something in their background, that scares the company or have lost their drivers license, and don't get a chance.....so while its nice to hope kids will grow out of drug use, as they get older......ehhh?.....it doesn't look like it from my point of view.....so pass this little tidbit along to your players....unless you're already independently wealthy and never need to work......don't $crew up your chances at a good career by being too stupid when you're young, cause that stuff follows you around! OK, thru ranting now, I'll go back to the youth football section where I belong, lol! Good luck with your program celtic and I admire what you're trying to do there!
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Post by coachguy83 on Jan 3, 2011 22:17:51 GMT -6
I will add that legal or not, one parent complaint would probably end the drug testing IF we tried it. We are a co-op program and quite frankly the administrative backbone is pretty weak at the administrating school. For example, we had one parent complaint earlier this year about the PE department's no dress policy...and voila! the whole policy got changed... The school I graduated from was in Illinois coach. So it has happened in Illinois, but since the schools closing I don't know of any other schools that do it.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 4, 2011 8:07:23 GMT -6
Los, yes we are a public school.
Steelhawk, we have a male and a female athletic trainer that administers the test, and as far as I know it follows pretty closely to what you had to do.
So far as band and other extra curriculars, those departments (and budgets) are their own. This is something our distirct AD headed up. He was from here and had left to coach in college for a couple of years and then returned. Nobody was doing this (again as far as I know) at the high school level before we initiated it. A lot of time and research was done to ensure not only the legality of the program, but also to gain public support.
Los, like you said, part of the backing for this was that drug testing has pretty much become the norm in the business world. SH, so far as not testing for performance enhancing drugs, part of it was cost. While I do not have the actual numbers, it was quite a bit more.
coachtf, I do beleive (from anecdotal evidence) that the program has 'put the fear of God' so to speak into the athletes about getting caught.
Also built into the policy, there are the necessary privacy issues addressed.
Again, all in all, we just started the testing this past fall, so we have yet to see what exactly the impact will be.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jan 4, 2011 22:31:47 GMT -6
drug testing has pretty much become the norm in the business world. Actually routine testing peaked in the 1990s and has been dropping since, because businesses weren't getting a return on that investment, since the tests didn't detect impairment. Primarily what routine screening turned up was people who smoked cannabis off the job, often a week or more earlier, and those employees were not a problem to begin with. The only thing that's kept it from dropping farther has been as a condition of gov't contracting and licensure for certain jobs. I've never worked at an establishment that had it, although I did apply for jobs years ago at a couple that would've required it.
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celtic
Freshmen Member
Posts: 86
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Post by celtic on Jan 5, 2011 8:40:13 GMT -6
Guys thanks for all the awesome feedback. A lot of it seems like it is a long road ahead to get a policy like this in place. I figured as much between legality, privacy issues, public/parental support, etc. Not sure if our ad has the juice to get something like this through. I would whole heartedly support most all of the policies that have been posted here. I absolutely agree that participating in athletics is a privilege and therefore you are held at a higher standard. Let the drama club, band, etc have their own policies. I want my guys to be held to a higher standard. I guess until something comes through here, we just have to talk it up to the kids. Try to scare them a little. I'm an alum of the program I coach at and it pisses me off to no end that they have that little amount of respect for the program. Not to mention the countless hours our staff puts in every week preparing them to have success on the field.
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celtic
Freshmen Member
Posts: 86
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Post by celtic on Jan 5, 2011 8:52:42 GMT -6
szimm - what's the turnaround time on how long it takes you to hear the results?
also, to everyone...what are some of the consequences for positive test results?
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 5, 2011 9:10:24 GMT -6
I will try to find our policy and see if I can answer any specific questions better. Our turn around is pretty quick, just a couple of days.
The punishment before the policy for some who got caught with drugs was 90 schools day athletic suspension and basically that is what it still is. There is some provisions in the policy now about offers for counseling through a community center our district is tied to.
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Post by los on Jan 5, 2011 9:20:37 GMT -6
Bob, that may be the case in NYC.....but not here......if you can't pass a drug test, your employment options are very limited.... you might get a job shoveling $hit down on the farm.....maybe? ;D
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