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Dec 21, 2010 20:34:48 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Dec 21, 2010 20:34:48 GMT -6
LOS wrote in another thread here: I'm not a big fan of weight class football, prefer to play by age's or some age grouping, rather than by weight and just have weight limits for the guys who handle the football.......this lets the big kids play I thought this deserved a thread of its own, because we don't have tree structure with unlimited branching of subthreads. I've also started polling questions at offenseguru.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=youthfootball (you'd need to register to answer), but this question I'd rather see discussion of than polling. The thing about heavier children of a given age and the same height is mostly a matter of how much baby fat they have, which is like extra padding. Are there any children's leagues that use height rather than weight for classif'n? Are there any that use experience rather than age, i.e. that you'd have 2 seasons of eligibility in novice class, then 2 seasons intermediate, etc.? Of course that last would have to go with some size consideration too, but might work better than age.
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Dec 21, 2010 22:19:24 GMT -6
Post by los on Dec 21, 2010 22:19:24 GMT -6
Bob, we're in a low population area in rural Ga. and really didn't have the numbers to play any other way......we had a league of us and 3 other surrounding counties.....we had two age groups....8-10 and 11-12.....the deal was, you had to turn 8 before sept 1 or you were too young and you couldn't turn 13 before sept 1 or you were too old.......depending on the turnout in each age group, you could field as many teams locally,as you wanted.....we just split the kids up as fairly as possible, no drafting or anything like that.....any kid could play if he met the age requirements....whether he was 50 pounds or 250 pounds.....didn't matter......we had ball carrier weight limits and any kids in that age group, that were heavier than this, got a strip of red tape down the middle of their helmet.....as soon as they got a hold of the football(at any time in the game), unless they were snapping,holding or kicking/punting.....play was blown dead.....the officials were aware of the rule and enforced it very well.....other than that, they could play any other position......in the 14 or 15 yrs I was with the program, I never saw a kid get hurt from big on small contact in a game.....course, you gotta use some common sense during practice and match up players or small groups of players during drills.....like by skill level and overall athletic ability, age, size.....you can control this at practice.....in the wide open spaces on the football field,during a game, the little guys know how to avoid the biggins,when they have to, lol By the way, we only weighed the kids at the first pre-season jamboree of the year.....if they made the ball carrier weight or didn't make it "then", that was it.....they didn't have to starve themselves for a weekly weigh in and the big guys couldn't lose the red tape, if they lost a few pounds. Worked out well for us.....from time to time, we'd get a super studly 12 yr old, that should've been a skill player, but was over the ball carrier weight.....If I thought the kid had enough talent to be an asset to the schools jr high program, we'd suggest he make the move up....the jr high coach did the same for us.....if he got a bunch of newbie 6th/7th graders that probably wouldn't see the field much, he'd send them down to us for more experience and much more playing time.....the only problem I had was the super x-large equipment, for the few really huge kids, but the local HS coach's would always loan us what we needed, so I guess it really wasn't a problem, lol. Over the years,all the teams in the league had their share of "super genetic freak big dudes".....the only other problem I ever had was with my QB's mama, when she saw the size of one of the 12 yr olds on a rival counties team, we were about to play......she came down on the sidelines and was going to "take my baby oughta here coach".....I convinced her the kid was a big softy and no way he'd hurt "my QB", lol.....the kid was actually "a beast", but since they played him at DE, we just went elsewhere the entire game and let him mutilate and feast on our TE to that side.....good thing "his" mom wasn't at the game though.
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hounds
Freshmen Member
Posts: 17
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classes
Dec 22, 2010 18:59:12 GMT -6
Post by hounds on Dec 22, 2010 18:59:12 GMT -6
We use ,a combination of age,grade,height,and weight that adds up to exponent numbers to determine divisions...It works really well for us... You can download an exponent sheet at www.eteamz.com/ccyflslo It's in the rulebook... Kurt
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Dec 24, 2010 7:25:23 GMT -6
Post by coachbuck on Dec 24, 2010 7:25:23 GMT -6
We use ,a combination of age,grade,height,and weight that adds up to exponent numbers to determine divisions...It works really well for us... You can download an exponent sheet at www.eteamz.com/ccyflslo It's in the rulebook... Kurt Kurt whats up, long time no talk. I disagree with you though.lol I dont think it works that well. I think kids should play with there age. We are punishing kids for being big and it discourages them from playing. They usually are playing with older smaller kids and the bigger younger kids cannot keep up. CCYFLs system also encourages kids to sweat down so that they can play at a lower division. Last year I was at a CCYFL meeting and they had a rep from I believe USAFOOTBALL there. He talked about numerous studies about competitiveness and safety and the number one factor was age. They are encouraging kids to play with there age groups. Mommy football "its what I like to call it". Mommy sees a big kid and her son is small and she thinks he cant play with that big kid. Nevermind that her son is twice as fast and strong as the big kid.
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hounds
Freshmen Member
Posts: 17
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classes
Dec 24, 2010 21:58:28 GMT -6
Post by hounds on Dec 24, 2010 21:58:28 GMT -6
I'm doing well,I coached Srs at SLO this year...The percentage of bigger ,younger kids who play up a division is pretty small...I'd say over 90% land where they should,you can't please everyone...I also think we'd lose more of the smaller kids if we didn't do it that way...We also finally got 7th graders out of the Jr. Div...Regardless of their exponents,they played Int's, the only way they could stay down was by being restricted,and I didn't hear of anybody doing that...It's the coaches and parents who encourage kids to "sweat down"...And if any league is into weight management,it's the leagues that require more than one weigh in during the season...We only weigh in once,as you know,then they can grow all they want...I've looked at quite a few youth football placement charts and I haven't found one better than ours...
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Dec 25, 2010 12:08:08 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Dec 25, 2010 12:08:08 GMT -6
Our organiz'n followed a similar rule of weighing in only once to qualify before teams were picked. But because we draft, the administrators were also flexible and would make an exception or two where they thought a player belonged in a class they were slightly over weight for. Similarly for next year there's a player we had who'll probably be allowed to move up even though he'd be under the minimum weight, just because he's so good -- the one I described here as a shark in our late season games. As long as any team can draft them, there's no unfairness that I can think of about such arrangements.
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hounds
Freshmen Member
Posts: 17
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classes
Dec 25, 2010 15:57:46 GMT -6
Post by hounds on Dec 25, 2010 15:57:46 GMT -6
Buck,I noticed that your league is using our exponent chart as well...
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Dec 25, 2010 20:33:13 GMT -6
Post by Chris Clement on Dec 25, 2010 20:33:13 GMT -6
I've never really understood the why of ballcarrier weight limits. For the most part the kids over those weights aren't the ones you'll be giving the ball very often, and they don't really move fast enough to do much damage. It mostly hurts the rare kid who develops early, and he often ends up abusing the fat kids against him on the line.
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Dec 26, 2010 1:52:18 GMT -6
Post by coachbuck on Dec 26, 2010 1:52:18 GMT -6
Buck,I noticed that your league is using our exponent chart as well... Yeah we did, except this league promotes sweating down. You can go to any weigh in you want. If you dont make weight just go to different weigh in. Stupid. Im not for any point system or height, weight grade. 8 and 9 yr olds should play with each other no matter height weight ect. and follow this up until H.S. Just my opinion.
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Dec 26, 2010 9:14:29 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Dec 26, 2010 9:14:29 GMT -6
Buck,I noticed that your league is using our exponent chart as well... Yeah we did, except this league promotes sweating down. You can go to any weigh in you want. If you dont make weight just go to different weigh in. Stupid. You're saying that promotes sweating down? I'd've thought that'd discourage it, because unless you're already in the heaviest wt. class, you don't risk missing a game if you're overweight one week, you just play up a class.
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Dec 26, 2010 9:36:41 GMT -6
Post by coachbuck on Dec 26, 2010 9:36:41 GMT -6
We have one weigh in at the beginning of the year. Each chapter will have a date set for weigh ins.Kids/parents/coaches will get there kids down to the desired weight and then go to weigh in. Hounds coach is in ccyfl. You have to weigh in at your appointed time and they do a good job of not sweating down the kids. When we where part of the ccyfl the divisions where pretty equal. This new league we are in is more chaotic when it comes down to the kids and sweating down. Bottom line is you have rules and someone is gonna try and game the situation. It just seems to me that age should play with age.
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hounds
Freshmen Member
Posts: 17
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classes
Dec 26, 2010 10:15:25 GMT -6
Post by hounds on Dec 26, 2010 10:15:25 GMT -6
Bob,we got rid of all that weigh in before every game stuff years ago because it promoted sweating down...Once our kids are weighed in Aug.they are done,unless they miss weigh ins,then they have to weigh in at Jamboree,then again before the 2nd game to make sure they weren't sweating down...If they gain a certain amount between Jamboree and the 2nd game they are restricted,but they still play for the same team...Since we've done all that,we have over 90% attendance at Aug. weigh in,that's out of 2000 players and 12 towns on the coast... I have a question,if you don't make weight one week and you have to play up a class,how would that player learn a whole new system on game day?
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Dec 26, 2010 16:54:06 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Dec 26, 2010 16:54:06 GMT -6
We have one weigh in at the beginning of the year. Each chapter will have a date set for weigh ins. Kids/parents/coaches will get there kids down to the desired weight and then go to weigh in. So how does that promote sweating down compared to weigh-ins before games, as we had in AYF? The club where I coached this year had just an annual weigh-in to discourage unhealthful attempts at rapid weight loss (or gain), but our club was also the league. Do you mean by "chapters" different clubs in one league? Really, the league doesn't set the weigh-in date? How far apart in time could those weigh-ins be?
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Dec 26, 2010 17:05:46 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Dec 26, 2010 17:05:46 GMT -6
I have a question,if you don't make weight one week and you have to play up a class,how would that player learn a whole new system on game day? Of course that wouldn't work in a club that had different teams play different systems, but if you're in a club where the plays and terminology are mostly the same, you can do it. That was the case where I coached in 2007, where all the teams were using I formation, and we fielded 3 age & weight-limited AYF teams (Mighty Mites, Jr. Pee Wees, Pee Wees), an unlimited weight 12U team (also AYF IIRC), and unlimited weight 14U and 18U teams (Empire State Unlimited/Eagles), 6 in all. Of course each team's playbook wasn't identical, but there was enough shared between teams in adjacent classes that you could get in as a sub if you missed a weight cutoff in the pre-game weighings. The Mites played first, etc., so you wouldn't get into a situation of needing to play in a class whose game was already over. However, that didn't help when teams were playing away games against different opponents, or in one case ISTR where a team's roster was at a league limit.
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hounds
Freshmen Member
Posts: 17
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classes
Dec 26, 2010 18:06:25 GMT -6
Post by hounds on Dec 26, 2010 18:06:25 GMT -6
Chapters here are leagues within the whole organization... In CCYFL Each town has a chapter such as San Luis Obispo Youth Football,or Paso Robles Youth Football...There is one town here on the coast ,(Nipomo),that has a chapter in CCYFL and also a chapter in the league that Coach Buck is in...CCYFL covers 12 towns on the coast from Paso Robles to Lompoc,that's almost 100 miles...
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Dec 26, 2010 18:34:16 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Dec 26, 2010 18:34:16 GMT -6
Chapters here are leagues within the whole organization. Can I assume that most or all of a team's season would consist of in-league games? If so, then what's wrong with parents shopping players from one league's weigh-in to another? It may be a little time consuming, but if it's only a minority of players and only once a season, how bad could that be?
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hounds
Freshmen Member
Posts: 17
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classes
Dec 26, 2010 19:24:35 GMT -6
Post by hounds on Dec 26, 2010 19:24:35 GMT -6
If for some reason a player can't make his chapters weigh in time,he can weigh in at another chapter,since all of our chapters weigh in the same day,just at different times...But he only weighs in once,and he still plays for his original chapter...He can't go to another weigh in if he doesn't like the results,and all our weigh ins are supervised by CCYFL board members from different chapters,like our San Luis rep would go to Paso Robles weigh in and Paso's rep does Santa Maria ...If by in-league games you mean CCYFL teams,you are correct...For example,I coached Seniors in San Luis Obispo,we had one Senior team,so I played Lompoc, Morro Bay,Santa Maria,Paso Robles,and so on...If you look at our league standings you'll see what I mean...
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Dec 26, 2010 19:30:53 GMT -6
Post by los on Dec 26, 2010 19:30:53 GMT -6
cclement, the ball carrier weight limits are more for the protection of the smaller kids.......and its not the big ,slow, pudgy, heavy or super heavyweight kids we were really concerned about(they were in the minority and most not very athletic)......but...nearly every(11-12) team in our league had at least 1 or 2 athletic "middle weight" type kids, every season, say in the 135 to 150 pound range and "many" of these guys weren't fat,pudgy or slow....given enough time and space, they could generate enough speed and power to put the lights out, on many of the average kids, had they had to tackle them on a regular basis.....the majority of the players on our 11-12 yr old teams, were probably in the 80 - 130 pound range or "light weights" we'll call them for lack of a better description, these guys made up "the bulk" of every team......for this reason, we chose a "middle of the road" 120 pound ball carrier weight limit, for safety reasons......like I said in the 1st post, if one these super athletic middle weight type kids wanted to handle the football and "not" play with us as a "red striper".....they had the option of playing on the school's jr. high team.
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Dec 26, 2010 22:15:56 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Dec 26, 2010 22:15:56 GMT -6
If for some reason a player can't make his chapters weigh in time,he can weigh in at another chapter,since all of our chapters weigh in the same day,just at different times...But he only weighs in once,and he still plays for his original chapter...He can't go to another weigh in if he doesn't like the results,and all our weigh ins are supervised by CCYFL board members from different chapters,like our San Luis rep would go to Paso Robles weigh in and Paso's rep does Santa Maria ...If by in-league games you mean CCYFL teams,you are correct...For example,I coached Seniors in San Luis Obispo,we had one Senior team,so I played Lompoc, Morro Bay,Santa Maria,Paso Robles,and so on...If you look at our league standings you'll see what I mean... Well, thanks, but I was looking for a response from coachbuck, since he was the one complaining about how things are when chapters set their own weigh-in dates and the players can shop. It doesn't seem to disadvantage any team, since the weighing-in is still for the whole chapter, which is the circuit the teams play in.
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