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Post by phantom on Dec 16, 2010 14:51:12 GMT -6
By now most of you have probably seen this from the Jets-Miami game. I'm not a fan of either team and I'm not defending the coach who stuck his knee out. That's indefensible and the guy should be fired.
Something about the play has me confused, though. There's been a lot of talk that the S&C coach had ordered the inactive players to stand where they did to form a wall to impede the gunner. Without the knee, though, what's wrong with that? Everybody in the wall (with one notable exception) was just standing somewhere they were legally allowed to stand. So, what's the big deal?
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Post by coachcb on Dec 16, 2010 17:59:05 GMT -6
I don't see it as an issue, whatsoever. It doesn't even really go along with the 'gamesmanship' talks we've been having. They're doing something that is completely within the rules of the game. If anything, the gunners need to stay away from the sidelines.
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Post by seagull73 on Dec 16, 2010 17:59:37 GMT -6
No big deal from my point of view. If you believe the S&C coach came up with this on his own I have a bridge to sell you.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 16, 2010 18:02:29 GMT -6
I have no problem with a wall being set up. Only part that was illigal (beside the tripping part) was the positioning of the IR players within the coaching box. If it were all coaches in that wall then there would definitely be nothing wrong, but part of the make up of the wall was players and they were infront of the player line (inside the coaches area). But ofcourse players are in the coaches box most of the time, we all know this. That would never have been an issue if the SC coach didnt trip anyone.
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Post by shsqbcoach1 on Dec 16, 2010 19:17:19 GMT -6
Obviously, the Jets thing is way worse, but Belichick tried to impede the progress of Marvin Harrison after an INT a couple years back.
He is clearly trying to get into Marvin's way. He doesn't really bump him, he just stands where Marvin wants to go. Fair or foul?
I say fair because Bill is still in the coaches box so he is free to roam.
The Jets Special Teams coach was on the radio and pointed out the tons of team set up a wall. I've seen a lot of college teams line the sideline, I always thought it was a mentality, cheer on your team thing but now I wonder.
If you were to get a gunner (or even a WR that goes out of bound after an INT, swallowed into the wall and then close him in. It would be as easy as getting out of the guys way and then closing the hole), he is going to have a tough time getting back in to make a play.
I'm not sure it would be worth practicing or even useful though.
On a side note... if we get a pool going for "First Sideline Warning" I have dibs on SD, Tonight 9:07 to play in the 2nd quarter.
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Post by mariner42 on Dec 16, 2010 19:22:07 GMT -6
No way the wall happened on it's own. The "Wall" aspect is self-righteous BS from pundits and whatnot, imo. Whatever the **** it is, it's trivial. The tripping, well, yeah, that's a total douchebag move. But the only controversy over the 'wall' is manufactured.
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 16, 2010 20:45:27 GMT -6
NFL rules are silent as to whether the "border" includes the space above it or not. However, 13-1-8 says, "Non-player personnel of a club (e.g....coaches...) are prohibited from making unnecessary physical contact with...opponents...." It penalizes that as unsportsmanlike conduct, with the enforcement spot for a live ball foul being the previous spot, or an equitable spot if it's a palpably unfair act. Failure of a member of the kicking team to attempt to return inbounds in a reasonable amount of time (12-3-1(t)) is also penalized as USC from the previous spot. with disqualif'n for a flagrant violation. Meanwhile 12-2-8(c) forbids as unnecessary roughness a receiving team player's going out of bounds and contacting a player of K out of bounds.
So it seems there's no counter for team R other than hoping for a penalty on coverage players of K using that border area for safe passage downfield. The cover player is even allowed to go there voluntarily and stay there as long as the "reasonable time" judgment allows.
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arbond
Sophomore Member
No "philosophy". Just play.
Posts: 103
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Post by arbond on Dec 17, 2010 8:53:34 GMT -6
Without the knee, though, what's wrong with that? Everybody in the wall (with one notable exception) was just standing somewhere they were legally allowed to stand. So, what's the big deal?
The problem is that they were NOT standing where they were supposed to be. They were supposed to be standing on the thin white line BEHIND where they were standing - you can see it in the video. They were actually standing on the inside edge of the out of bounds line.
THAT is the problem.
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Post by leighty on Dec 17, 2010 9:25:58 GMT -6
Without the knee, though, what's wrong with that? Everybody in the wall (with one notable exception) was just standing somewhere they were legally allowed to stand. So, what's the big deal? The problem is that they were NOT standing where they were supposed to be. They were supposed to be standing on the thin white line BEHIND where they were standing - you can see it in the video. They were actually standing on the inside edge of the out of bounds line. THAT is the problem. I'm confused. Are you saying they were standing just outside the sideline? |
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arbond
Sophomore Member
No "philosophy". Just play.
Posts: 103
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Post by arbond on Dec 17, 2010 11:37:09 GMT -6
I'm confused. Are you saying they were standing just outside the sideline?[/quote][/i]
If you look at the video - just the frozen pic above will do - you see a very wide swath of white that is the sideline for the field. They were just off of that. But that is not the players restriction line. There is a thin line behind the "wall" that all players and coaches are supposed to stand behind - legally. They were not where they were legally supposed to be - and that is what the big issue is.
Gunners for punt teams are allowed to run in that area. So are officials. That is why players and coaches are SUPPOSED to stand behind that thin line - to keep that area clear.
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Post by John Knight on Dec 17, 2010 11:51:21 GMT -6
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Post by phantom on Dec 17, 2010 15:38:55 GMT -6
I'm confused. Are you saying they were standing just outside the sideline? [/i] If you look at the video - just the frozen pic above will do - you see a very wide swath of white that is the sideline for the field. They were just off of that. But that is not the players restriction line. There is a thin line behind the "wall" that all players and coaches are supposed to stand behind - legally. They were not where they were legally supposed to be - and that is what the big issue is. Gunners for punt teams are allowed to run in that area. So are officials. That is why players and coaches are SUPPOSED to stand behind that thin line - to keep that area clear.[/quote] So, there are no rules saying that gunners have to stay inbounds? I see that the NFL has sent a memo emphasizing that players should stay behind the second restricting line. Coaches are allowed to stand just behind the 1st line as are situational subs. However, it's pretty obvious that this rule has been widely ignored. I've seen a lot of NFL games and don't recall hearing a sideline warning. |
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arbond
Sophomore Member
No "philosophy". Just play.
Posts: 103
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Post by arbond on Dec 18, 2010 7:56:19 GMT -6
I forgot how the rule is written, but gunners can go out of bounds and come back in...under certain conditions.
Obviously, it must happen a lot....or else the Jets guys would not have set that wall up on purpose. I think the idea is that the defender on the gunner forces the gunner to the sideline area. These guys knew that, and were getting ready for it.
Totally planned out.
If he hadn't "stuck the knee out"....they might have gotten away with it.
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hoosier
Sophomore Member
Posts: 176
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Post by hoosier on Dec 19, 2010 14:35:46 GMT -6
let the game/play be decided on the filed. any attempt to alter it from the sideline in that manner i would not tolerate.
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Post by John Knight on Dec 20, 2010 6:02:11 GMT -6
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 20, 2010 7:54:03 GMT -6
the Wall thing is fine. The problem is the rules. If a player is knocked out of bounce, he needs to take the most direct route possible to get back in the field of play...if he's running down the sidelines out of bounce, then there should be a flag...at which any wall does nothing.
Otherwise, in highschool and below, it's bushleague if an opposing player ends up getting knockedout on your sideline, and you/staff/players intentionally do something to stop/slow their process to getting on to the field should be a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty.
College/Pros...I'd say it's bushleague too, except, when all that matters at the end of the day is Ws, and Ws means more food on my table, then I'd probably do it too.
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 20, 2010 16:06:57 GMT -6
The NFL even lets them go out of bounds voluntarily and return. And "reasonable time" to me isn't as restrictive as "most direct route possible".
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