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Post by coachcb on Dec 11, 2010 9:54:43 GMT -6
I had a situation this season that got me thinking. We taught or DBs to commit PI if they were getting burned and it saved us several times. My AD asked me if we were teaching that to the kids and I didn't even hesitate when I said told him we had. He laughed and agreed with me; better to take the penalty than give up a score. However, our athletic motto is "Sportsmanship Above All Else".
We teach and rep a lot of things that are completely illegal: holding when hands are inside of the frame, making initial contact with the facemask on the OL and DL, putting the facemask on the ball when tackling and the PI deal. Now, these are just things that are kind of a given in football; I've never worked with a coach that didn't teach these things. It is gamesmanship.
However, is teaching these things a kin to speeding on the highway or are there more serious implications behind it? I'm interested to see what you guys think.
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 11, 2010 14:35:03 GMT -6
Putting a face mask on the ball ("bite the ball") isn't illegal, and I coach it too. Making deliberate mask contact on the opponent's body is, however, not only illegal but dangerous.
As to the deliberate DPI, that's what's known as the "professional" or "cynical" foul. The way I look at it, if the administrators of the game wanted to penalize that worse than an accidental DPI, they'd either adopt a specific penalty for it or start making the call they're already authorized to make, i.e. unfair act, equitable penalty, by which they could award as much as a touchdown. As long as they're not penalizing it like that, sure, foul intentionally, it's as much a part of the game as an illegal touch (that's what it's called in NCAA rules) to smother your own team's punt before it rolls into the end zone. I'd countenance OPI to prevent an interception too.
When Fed started working on their own rules distinct from NCAA's, one of many things mentioned in their proceedings was the consideration of awarding a TD automatically for DPI in the end zone. But they never did, although it still can be done at the referee's discretion if he thinks it was an unfair act that deprived the passing team of a score. When's the last time you saw that?
As to grabbing cloth, that I wouldn't coach, because I think it's unfair to foul in a way that an official couldn't detect. An intentional foul out in the open, taking a penalty, sure, but not a cheap tactic like that.
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Post by 42falcon on Dec 11, 2010 15:02:03 GMT -6
As a db coach and a former db there is nothing wrong with grabing a little cloth, or riding the hip, the low back push on a jump ball. This is the same as a little push off by the wr. It is all the game within the game. Guys are always looking to get an edge or slow down a more talented guy. Each ref calls it a little differently some let guys o & d get away with a little more when the ball is up in the air. That's part of the human element. I teach thus stuff because these are all good tools if used properly. I don't begrudge a good wr that can use a subtle push off, someone had to have taught this!
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Post by coachcb on Dec 11, 2010 15:34:05 GMT -6
Putting a face mask on the ball ("bite the ball") isn't illegal, and I coach it too. Making deliberate mask contact on the opponent's body is, however, not only illegal but dangerous. As to the deliberate DPI, that's what's known as the "professional" or "cynical" foul. The way I look at it, if the administrators of the game wanted to penalize that worse than an accidental DPI, they'd either adopt a specific penalty for it or start making the call they're already authorized to make, i.e. unfair act, equitable penalty, by which they could award as much as a touchdown. As long as they're not penalizing it like that, sure, foul intentionally, it's as much a part of the game as an illegal touch (that's what it's called in NCAA rules) to smother your own team's punt before it rolls into the end zone. I'd countenance OPI to prevent an interception too. When Fed started working on their own rules distinct from NCAA's, one of many things mentioned in their proceedings was the consideration of awarding a TD automatically for DPI in the end zone. But they never did, although it still can be done at the referee's discretion if he thinks it was an unfair act that deprived the passing team of a score. When's the last time you saw that? As to grabbing cloth, that I wouldn't coach, because I think it's unfair to foul in a way that an official couldn't detect. An intentional foul out in the open, taking a penalty, sure, but not a cheap tactic like that. Around here, the officials consider initiating contact with their face-mask to e be "unnecessary roughness". They've never called it "spearing" but I've had unnecessary roughness called against us a few times. I understand what you're saying about the holding and that's why I thought this would be an entertaining discussion. I was coached to do so , every OL coach I've worked with does so, and I do so. I guess I view it as the "worst kept secret" in football. The officials know it's going on but they're not going to call it unless the hands are outside of the frame or it's really obvious. And, it's one of those things where I'll fall into the "everyone else is doing it, so I will too" crowds.
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 12, 2010 13:38:31 GMT -6
I understand what you're saying about the holding and that's why I thought this would be an entertaining discussion. I was coached to do so , every OL coach I've worked with does so, and I do so. I guess I view it as the "worst kept secret" in football. The officials know it's going on but they're not going to call it unless the hands are outside of the frame or it's really obvious. And, it's one of those things where I'll fall into the "everyone else is doing it, so I will too" crowds. You could say the rulesmakers expected this when they legalized making contact with the palms rather than only the backs of the hands as previously. Part of the justif'n given for the change was that making contact with the backs of the hands encouraged the delivery of a blow. However, I now see the word "punch" used openly as a technique taught in hands blocking, and I don't know of any officials who draw a line and call it delivery of a blow if the heel of the hand makes contact too fast. I expect players making contact with the palms of their hands to grab cloth at least some of the time, just because it's hard to tense the body in maintaining contact without clenching the fingers unless you make an effort not to, which is a waste of your concentration. But that's different from being coached to deliberately grasp the shirt to inhibit sideways movement of the opponent.
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Post by dubber on Dec 12, 2010 18:13:59 GMT -6
We teach an open palm punch........and we hold the breatplate if we can get it.
I couldn't imagine an OL coach harping on "don't hold em' inside"..........I don't know a SINGLE OL coach who doesn't teach their guys to do this.
I really don't have an ethical justification for it.
From a pragmatic standpoint, it just seems to be accepted practice.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 12, 2010 18:55:50 GMT -6
I had a situation this season that got me thinking. We taught or DBs to commit PI if they were getting burned and it saved us several times. My AD asked me if we were teaching that to the kids and I didn't even hesitate when I said told him we had. He laughed and agreed with me; better to take the penalty than give up a score. However, our athletic motto is "Sportsmanship Above All Else". We teach and rep a lot of things that are completely illegal: holding when hands are inside of the frame, making initial contact with the facemask on the OL and DL, putting the facemask on the ball when tackling and the PI deal. Now, these are just things that are kind of a given in football; I've never worked with a coach that didn't teach these things. It is gamesmanship. However, is teaching these things a kin to speeding on the highway or are there more serious implications behind it? I'm interested to see what you guys think. I know what you mean Coach. The attitude that even though it's illegal "everyone is doing it" or " the officials won't catch it" so that makes it okay. You've posed a tough question. I believe the answer is "yes"...it's gamesmanship. We teach grasping the chest plate following a collision and punch wherever the blocking takes place whether it be in the box or on the perimeter (technically illegal). 42falcon called it the "game within the game." I truly believe that's right. Each team is in search of an advantage to prevail over their opponent. As for teaching illegal practices in search of a win and the impact that has on our players in the long run...I don't know. More importantly, are we encouraging our players to do illegal things in the future by encouraging this type of gamesmanship in the present. I hope they understand the difference but I guess I'm just not positive that's the case. Is holding as long as you don't get caught the same as speeding on the highway as long as you don't get caught? I don't think so but I could be wrong. Like I said, I hope they understand the difference. That's why I said this is a tough question.
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 12, 2010 19:30:48 GMT -6
As for teaching illegal practices in search of a win and the impact that has on our players in the long run...I don't know. More importantly, are we encouraging our players to do illegal things in the future by encouraging this type of gamesmanship in the present. I hope they understand the difference but I guess I'm just now positive that's the case. Is holding as long as you don't get caught the same as speeding on the highway as long as you don't get caught? But does the mere fact that something in a game is called "illegal" give you pause if it's done intentionally? Would you even give a 2nd thought in NCAA rules to "illegally" touching the ball to prevent a touchback by downing a kick -- the same act that's now called "first touching" rather than "illegal" in Fed rules? Or do you think, as I do, that that sort of thing is OK as long as it's done openly? How about the sorts of open illegal acts done in some sports in the name of honor and with the expectation of being penalized, to even up against what you or your team thinks was an unpenalized or underpenalized cheap shot by an opponent?
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Post by coachcb on Dec 12, 2010 20:10:12 GMT -6
I understand what you're saying about the holding and that's why I thought this would be an entertaining discussion. I was coached to do so , every OL coach I've worked with does so, and I do so. I guess I view it as the "worst kept secret" in football. The officials know it's going on but they're not going to call it unless the hands are outside of the frame or it's really obvious. And, it's one of those things where I'll fall into the "everyone else is doing it, so I will too" crowds. You could say the rulesmakers expected this when they legalized making contact with the palms rather than only the backs of the hands as previously. Part of the justif'n given for the change was that making contact with the backs of the hands encouraged the delivery of a blow. However, I now see the word "punch" used openly as a technique taught in hands blocking, and I don't know of any officials who draw a line and call it delivery of a blow if the heel of the hand makes contact too fast. I expect players making contact with the palms of their hands to grab cloth at least some of the time, just because it's hard to tense the body in maintaining contact without clenching the fingers unless you make an effort not to, which is a waste of your concentration. But that's different from being coached to deliberately grasp the shirt to inhibit sideways movement of the opponent. We teach them to grab the breast plate and drill the hell out of it. We actually do a drill where the OL starts out with their hands outside of the frame, work them back inside and grabs that breast plate. Like I said, it's an interesting topic. We all emphasize making our players better young men but we'll definitely "play the game within the game." And, in all honesty, I'd still teach the OL to grab the sh-t out of that breast plate even I were the only one doing it. LOL.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 12, 2010 20:14:17 GMT -6
And, in all honesty, I'd still teach the OL to grab the sh-t out of that breast plate even I were the only one doing it. LOL. Fair enough.
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Post by morris on Dec 12, 2010 20:56:42 GMT -6
I am going to assume none of you have ever heard Alex Gibbs talk about OL play. He is very open about grabbing inside on the inside part of the frame. He even goes as far to say things like "latch on like a big dog", how he wants his OL to have strong hands and that the rules are now the same from the NFL all the way down. It is when you get outside the frame or the feat stop running you get the holding penalty. I think it is within the rules to get inside of frame. One thing we have taught is to drive the shoulder pads of the DL up since most are not tight.
I see nothing wrong with the PI and the such. It is not different than in basketball how they foul on purpose. No one even questions if that is ethical. Its just how the game is played.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 12, 2010 21:38:43 GMT -6
I see nothing wrong with the PI and the such. It is not different than in basketball how they foul on purpose. No one even questions if that is ethical. Its just how the game is played. Great point morris. That makes sense. This is basically the entire month of March for NCAA basketball March Madness right? CBS is rotating through all of those games with a minute or less left on the clock. Players are fouling on purpose at the end of games to hopefully watch their opponent miss free throws which, if they're able to capitalize on the offensive end, would allow their team to get back into the game. The last minute of game time takes about 10-15 minutes minutes real time because of the fouls extending the game. That is certainly the "game within the game."
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Post by coachcb on Dec 13, 2010 8:20:03 GMT -6
And, in all honesty, I'd still teach the OL to grab the sh-t out of that breast plate even I were the only one doing it. LOL. Fair enough. I also view it as an equalizer because the DL has a lot of leeway when it comes to using their hands. The DL can get away with a lot as long at they keep their hands away from the face mask. But it also requires us to have very good technique; we have to get into the DL nice and tight if we're going to be able to grab that breast plate. Our guys know to let go of the jersey if the DL pulls away from us.
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Post by k on Dec 13, 2010 8:41:28 GMT -6
Where is the guy who just hit and runs with rules quotes?
Most of these threads just turn into one guy quoting the rule about coaching ethics fifty times in a row and then me rolling my eyes fifty times.
I teach them to grab cloth inside and will do so until they start calling holding on it.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 13, 2010 9:05:57 GMT -6
Here's food for thought.
Teaching the OL to grab that breast plates prevents us from getting holding penalties. If the OL has a good tight blocking fit and grabs that breast plate, their hands won't stray out of the frame. As such, we won't get as many holding calls as we would is we DIDN'T teach it.
Lol, where does that fall on the gamesmanship scale. A game within a game within a game.
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Post by cc on Dec 13, 2010 9:38:42 GMT -6
To me, we explain holding as when you use your hands outside his frame to prevent him from moving away from you. If your hands are inside and you are grabbing, yes you are "holding" but it's not the actual holding penalty (that you see called). It's when the jersey gets stretched away or the hands are too wide that we teach our O.Line to let go and replace their hands. Yes it's gamesmanship and no it's not unethical. What about in Bball taking intentional fouls at the end of the game? Many others we do. Teaching the center or QB to stay down longer when injured so the backups can get a few snaps in while the trainer is "looking at them." Or how about the practice of getting up slow in pileups or taking "injuries" vs a fast paced no huddle team or 2 minute drill. Or the arm bar or butt cutoff for dbs when covering the deep ball. It's not PI but it could technically be called. Yeah there are lots of gamesmanship calls. When you "talk" to the refs during the game have you ever thought about how you might be influencing his calls? Have you ever done that with this thought on purpose. Of course you have....
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