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Post by utchuckd on Oct 22, 2010 7:18:31 GMT -6
Wondering how you guys determine playing time? We really need a set policy and would like to get some input. We do our best to have everybody at least rotating in the starting lineup on one side of the ball, but that doesn't always happen, and we have been having an attendance issue.
So if I have a kid who is a true MPP but is at every practice, should he get the same number of snaps as a kid who is not a stud, but not an MPP, but doesn't come to every practice?
If I have a stud DL that misses a practice should he get the same or more snaps than a good solid OL that could rotate in his place and was at every practice, but would make our defense a little weaker?
How much do you take the opponent into account? If I'm playing one of the top teams in the league do the MPP's get in the rotation as much as better players because they were at every practice? Or do they get less plays then and get more plays when we play weaker teams?
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Post by mhcoach on Oct 22, 2010 7:32:05 GMT -6
Chuck
We have a hard & fast rule. Miss 1 practice sit a half, regardless excused or not excused. It makes it simple. This season only having 19, it is difficult but we stick to our guns. If you start this from the beginning you be amazed how few missed practices you have.
Joe
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Post by coachcomet on Oct 22, 2010 7:56:19 GMT -6
Chuck We have a hard & fast rule. Miss 1 practice sit a half, regardless excused or not excused. It makes it simple. This season only having 19, it is difficult but we stick to our guns. If you start this from the beginning you be amazed how few missed practices you have. Joe Joe, I could not agree more. Miss practice and you do not start and you sit the first half. I let all the kids know that at the start of the season. My stud got Pink Eye and had to miss two practices, you would have thought I kicked him off the team. He was very upset. That was before game two and when the team seen that he did not play the first half the rest of them knew I was not playing. A couple of the assistant coaches did not think I would sit him for the half. He is the starting FB and LB on our team. At the time we did not have a very good back up at LB. At the start of the second half we had to kick off. We onside kick the ball to his side and he comes up with the ball. One of the other coaches said I think he is trying to make a point, so we ran 22 wedge to reward him for the onside recovery. First play goes 20 yards call the same play and he takes it to the house. After the game he asked if he played good today. I asked him if he felt like he had to prove something. He said that he did not want to lose his starting spot and that he thought the backup played really good in the first half. The kid has played hard in every game so far this year. I have parents call me and I go by and pick the players up if Mom or Dad can’t make it in time. Some of them I don’t think it really matters if they don’t play the first half, but I do think it effects the parents to see little Johnny standing the hole first half stand next to me and everyone else playing. So a little late to practice does not bother me, but miss a practice and you get to be water boy the first half. |
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Post by utchuckd on Oct 22, 2010 9:00:51 GMT -6
So there's no such thing as an excused absence?
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Post by mhcoach on Oct 22, 2010 9:09:39 GMT -6
Chuck
Our rule is 2 unexcused practices & you are off the team. Excused absence has to be allowed, all my players & their parents have my cell #. Sometimes there are valid reasons, as long as it doesn't become a pattern I see nothing wrong with it.
Joe
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Post by gameface on Oct 22, 2010 10:43:41 GMT -6
This has been an issue this year. Kids with lack of commitment and parents that are idiots (I am sure they are saying the same about me, good thing us coaches know it all. LOL) I had to change our rules this year. It was if you miss two of our three practices you don't play at all.
Now we have if you miss one practice you miss a half. If you miss two you sit the whole game. This has already been tested and cost us at least one if not two games those kids could have helped in.
As for excused absence. I do allow kids to miss for certain things. if they are sick and it is not contagious they are still to be there but if it is the flu or similar. the parent is to let me know ahead of time and I make the decision at that time if it is excused or not.
There are very few things I will excuse other than being sick. for example had a kid go to the Broadway show the lion king this year NOT EXCUSED!
One year we had a kid that was Court ordered to be in another state during a bad custody battle between his parents. I excused him he had no choice, it was out of his control.
We have many kids that are avid scouter's here. I don't excuse them for that.
I have never really had to sit many kids until this year for missing practice.
This Saturday I will have starting tackle (best OL/DL I have), starting MLB/1 back our best player, starting 4 back out because of missed practice. My starting 2 back/DE is out with a injury.
So we will be tested again. You would think they would figure out that even if they are the best player or one of the best players I will not bend on it. I will play those kids that show up and give me great effort.
On the playing time. We have 4 offensive teams and 4 defensive teams. if the game is tight I keep our best kids in and rotate 4 crawlers non stop during the game. if it is tight we stay with this. we have a min play rule of 10 plays. We never miss on that and usually play them more. Kick off and kick return don't count.
So far this year we have 17 kids that are eligible to run the ball in three of seven games all 17 have run the ball. in the others we have about 7-9 kids carry the ball on a regular basis.
Once we hit 28 points up we put the 3-4th O and D and let them finish out. It has been great to see them get that experience on both sides of the ball.
I have talked to them and let them know that if the game is tight I will keep the playing time tight until I can loosen it up. They seem to be good with that. Hope that gives you some ideas. it isn't perfect but it works for us.
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Post by utchuckd on Oct 22, 2010 15:01:59 GMT -6
How many do you have on your team? Wow, if I had to get 3-4 deep worth of players on the field I would turn into a scene from Scanners.
I guess what I meant about excused absences is about sitting them for a half. There's no reason they could miss a practice and not sit?
I do like the idea of just sitting them a half for missing, seems simple enough.
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Post by mhcoach on Oct 22, 2010 15:33:30 GMT -6
Chuck
We have 19 this year, that is the smallest team we have had in my 4 years here. Out of 19, 4 are MMP kids, yet we start 17. The other 2 come off the bench in the second series. Granted the 4 are really a liability, but it hasn't slowed us down yet. My coaches & I have been discussing what we will do when we get to FL(hopefully). I like to get the MMP's done ASAP. All of our games this year have been blow outs, so our MMP kids have probably gotten more time then our starters. I find it hard to not play kids if they have worked hard in practice all week.
When I coached HS football we always had very large squads, 55-65 players. It would bother me that kids didn't get reps. I understand there is no MMP's(nor do I think there should be), but sometimes I think coaches can get too caught up in the game & not coach. One thing I learned in FL was how to get players valuable reps early in games without a risk. The HC was a great guy & an even better coach(rotten personality though). He really knew how to run a program & always made sure to do the right thing with PT. The rules I have described I got from him. He also believed not to have too many rules otherwise you could hamstring yourself.
Our rule was if you missed practice you sit a half (excused or unexcused) the only exception to this was either a Dr's appt for an injury, or for Physical Therapy with our trainers. Technically if you were at PT you were at practice. Otherwise we were pretty hard & fast, we did make an exception for a player who attended his Grandma's funeral. It's like anything else you have to use common sense & remember who you are dealing with.
Joe
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tate
Freshmen Member
Posts: 43
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Post by tate on Oct 22, 2010 18:28:07 GMT -6
I still do not have a answer for this question. We started the year with 34 kids, More than half are true MMP. By Federation rules every one get 8 plays by the end of the 3rd Quarter or you forfeit. kick off and extra point do not count as a play or if there is a penalty it does not count. If one of these kid misses a practice they still get their plays so many parents only bring them to two out of three practices, if they miss two they do not play. So I am stuck with different team rules for starters and MMP, If a starter misses a practice it effects his playing time ( a starter needs less practice is better and knows more) if a MMP misses a practice he get the same playing time he always gets. (a MMP needs more practice is not as good and knows less) The player that needs less work is punished, and the player that needs more work gets away with it. This sucks and made my head hurt to write it. How do we fix it. Jon
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 22, 2010 23:16:53 GMT -6
My stud got Pink Eye and had to miss two practices, you would have thought I kicked him off the team. He was very upset. That was before game two and when the team seen that he did not play the first half the rest of them knew I was not playing. A couple of the assistant coaches did not think I would sit him for the half. He is the starting FB and LB on our team. At the time we did not have a very good back up at LB. At the start of the second half we had to kick off. We onside kick the ball to his side and he comes up with the ball. One of the other coaches said I think he is trying to make a point, so we ran 22 wedge to reward him for the onside recovery. First play goes 20 yards call the same play and he takes it to the house. Well of course he played super...it was the 1st time in a week he'd been able to see! |
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Post by davecisar on Oct 24, 2010 6:57:34 GMT -6
I still do not have a answer for this question. We started the year with 34 kids, More than half are true MMP. By Federation rules every one get 8 plays by the end of the 3rd Quarter or you forfeit. kick off and extra point do not count as a play or if there is a penalty it does not count. If one of these kid misses a practice they still get their plays so many parents only bring them to two out of three practices, if they miss two they do not play. So I am stuck with different team rules for starters and MMP, If a starter misses a practice it effects his playing time ( a starter needs less practice is better and knows more) if a MMP misses a practice he get the same playing time he always gets. (a MMP needs more practice is not as good and knows less) The player that needs less work is punished, and the player that needs more work gets away with it. This sucks and made my head hurt to write it. How do we fix it. Jon Coach, With all due respect- team of 34- you dont have 17 mmps Ive been doing this for 21 years, ran large 400 kid org- coaches THINK they have mmps, but dont- not 1/2 the squad Non select youth teams mmp percentages range from 15-25% A true mmp is inthe 20th percentile or below for his age group- in being a "football player" Being a football player includes ability to get into a stance, body control, strength, ability to block, tackle etc For MANY youth football players- MANY look like MMPs early on. Some obviously dont This year in our first open field tackling drill- 5 of the 7 players doing it were 0-10 to 1-10 By seasons end all of them- the very same kids are 8-10+ Unfortunately many weak players are rushed into contact- not taught GREAT fundamentals, not taught in progressions, not taught the atomic level of the basics, NOT encouraged, not brought along properly- Because they dont look like Incredible Joe right out of the box, arent super aggressive- or are small an unathletic- they are deemed a MMP and not developed properly Also MANY schemes on both offense and defense- utilize NFL type approaches- They are designed for GREAT athletes rather than being MMP player friendly- allow for weak kids to do something simple to add value on every play. Do perfect storms hit, sure Do some of us have all rookie teams with lots of weak kids, sure Do some teams get stacked with weak kids- sure Do any of us have 1/2 of our kids as true MMPs- no Highest % Ive ever had 8 kids on 25 kid roster We blind "recruit" school flyers and one add in the local newspaper- AND we dont cut or run anyone off- no matter their ability |
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 24, 2010 10:10:39 GMT -6
I still do not have a answer for this question. We started the year with 34 kids, More than half are true MMP. You mean you had only 16 (or fewer) who you wanted to get more than the minimum quota of playing? That would seem to mean one of a few things: - You recruited under false pretenses, and weren't really dedicated to getting many kids much play time.
- You had a very unusual distribution of talent, with a group of stars and another group who weren't even good substitutes.
- You had a very good group of returning players and expanded without meaning to by attracting a large bunch of wannabes.
- Your idea of Minimum Play Player is different from what the rest think.
- Your participation rules are so confining and games so short that even the 16 (or fewer) who aren't MPPs play just a little more than the MPP quota.
Our hands are so tied by club rules that if someone on our roster never showed up at a single practice but suddenly was there in gear an hour before a game, we'd have to play him the entire first half on offense or defense. (We have operated in fear of that scenario, because there's still a name we drafted who we've never seen since the draft.) On the other hand, someone who was on time for every single practice but arrived for the game less than half an hour beforehand would have to sit the entire first half. |
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tate
Freshmen Member
Posts: 43
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Post by tate on Oct 24, 2010 10:13:21 GMT -6
I knew I would get some reaction, Saying there over 50% MMP on our team. I agree with Dave"s point in principle that MMP are coaches fault not the kids fault. I also believe winning youth football has more to do with super coaching, not super talent. But you got balance that with you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, you can heal the sick, but you can't raise the the dead bother. I am sure if you took a blind poll of youth coaches you would come closer to 50% mmp than Dave's numbers. If you look at the simple math 34 less 22 starters that leaves 12 if you you have no two way starters. So maybe it would of sounded better if I had said 17 non starters, but how ever you say it, it is hard to get all of their plays in by the end of third quarter.
Buy the way Dave did not answer the question, on how to come up with a discipline plan regarding attendance with our league rules, as stated in my post.
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Post by mhcoach on Oct 24, 2010 10:20:35 GMT -6
DC
Years ago the best advice I ever heard on this subject was very simple. Coach ability not potential. Too often we as coaches look at a players body type & physical ability & rush to make a judgment on his ability to be a player. We lock the boy into a position & when he fails we blame it on him. Then to complicate matters we run schemes that call for the players to do what they are incapable of doing. When I first started coaching in FL we had a stud LB who now is in the pro's. I got into rather a heated agrument with the DC, he was asking the Mike to do something he was incapable of doing. I stood up & said rather calmly, look this kid is the best Mike LB any of us will ever coach, & if he can't do this no one ever will. The HC laughed & said argument over Joe 1 DC 0. We always talk about that till today, you just can't ask players to do the impossible.
My 4 MMP's this season(probably really only 2) contribute what they can do. I don't ask them to do anything they are physically unable to. We probably coach these players harder then we do our better players. Early in the season we worked them in remedial football, had them work our basic drills over & over till they became more comfortable. Hands ( our WR MMP) actually had 2 crushing blocks in yesterday's game. I made more of that then any of the great runs we made. The smile on the boy's face after the game was worth all the effort. Snaps ( our C/DL mmp) still can't block a tissue paper but his snaps are perfect & he runs on D. Toe ( our kicker OL/LB mmp) played horribly @ LB. Our DC reamed him for lack of effort, & not playing down hill. After the game I had a talk with him, encouraging him. His father walked over to me & thanked me. Track Star (our WR/DB mmp) played most of the game at safety & was in position on all pass plays. He is still lost in terms of football knowledge( I don't think he has ever watched a game in his life).
The bottom line being it's our job as coaches to coach those that can play & those that can't.
Joe
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 24, 2010 10:28:38 GMT -6
I knew I would get some reaction, Saying there over 50% MMP on our team. I agree with Dave"s point in principle that MMP are coaches fault not the kids fault. I also believe winning youth football has more to do with super coaching, not super talent. But you got balance that with you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, you can heal the sick, but you can't raise the the dead bother. I am sure if you took a blind poll of youth coaches you would come closer to 50% mmp than Dave's numbers. If you look at the simple math 34 less 22 starters that leaves 12 if you you have no two way starters. So maybe it would of sounded better if I had said 17 non starters, but how ever you say it, it is hard to get all of their plays in by the end of third quarter. "Not a starter" could mean just beaten out by a hair by a starter. "Minimum play player" to me means, "Are you still sure you want to play football?" However, I will say that as a roster expands if the games are short enough and the participation rules generous (to the MPPs) enough, you would eventually reach a point where everyone would be in for just their rules-guaranteed number of plays. |
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Post by mhcoach on Oct 24, 2010 13:01:08 GMT -6
Another post hijacked! LOL
Bob
I'm sure MMP's have different meanings to each of us. In my mind a MMP player is someone that cannot perform even at a minimum level. That is to say, a player who is more of a liability then a performer. I have seen many different approaches to MMP strategies. The most common one I see is having an Offensive unit of MMP's, & trying to get them their plays ASAP.
Currently we start 2 MMP's, one on offense at WR the other at FS on Defense. That leaves us only 2 MMP's to worry about. I have actually been discussing our plans for regionals & nationals with my coaches today. In a tight game we want a solid plan to get these boys their plays without being just chaff.
Joe
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Post by davecisar on Oct 24, 2010 15:15:25 GMT -6
I knew I would get some reaction, Saying there over 50% MMP on our team. I agree with Dave"s point in principle that MMP are coaches fault not the kids fault. I also believe winning youth football has more to do with super coaching, not super talent. But you got balance that with you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, you can heal the sick, but you can't raise the the dead bother. I am sure if you took a blind poll of youth coaches you would come closer to 50% mmp than Dave's numbers. If you look at the simple math 34 less 22 starters that leaves 12 if you you have no two way starters. So maybe it would of sounded better if I had said 17 non starters, but how ever you say it, it is hard to get all of their plays in by the end of third quarter. Buy the way Dave did not answer the question, on how to come up with a discipline plan regarding attendance with our league rules, as stated in my post. First practice- mandatory parent meeting We set expectations- 2 unexcused abcences, we pick up the gear All excused misses approved ahead of time- miss school- ok to miss practice- VERY LIMITED in what we deem excused Over 80% perfect attendance last 15 seasons Injured- you must attend practice We really have never had a problem getting kids to show because: Our practices are super fast paced, we WASTE ZERO TIME We practice about 1/2 to 2/3 as much as our competition Our practices are usually fairly fun We never condition- vias sprints, no cals or agilities- ever Done this in middle of ghetto with zero parent support, in hyper helicopter parent rich kid suburbia and now in rural/suburban mix- has never ever been a problem for me at any of the 3 locales |
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Post by davecisar on Oct 24, 2010 15:18:02 GMT -6
I knew I would get some reaction, Saying there over 50% MMP on our team. I agree with Dave"s point in principle that MMP are coaches fault not the kids fault. I also believe winning youth football has more to do with super coaching, not super talent. But you got balance that with you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, you can heal the sick, but you can't raise the the dead bother. I am sure if you took a blind poll of youth coaches you would come closer to 50% mmp than Dave's numbers. If you look at the simple math 34 less 22 starters that leaves 12 if you you have no two way starters. So maybe it would of sounded better if I had said 17 non starters, but how ever you say it, it is hard to get all of their plays in by the end of third quarter. Buy the way Dave did not answer the question, on how to come up with a discipline plan regarding attendance with our league rules, as stated in my post. In youth football- you dont ever have half duds Ive been doing this for 21 years- it doesnt happen Ive hands on helped over 60 youth teams all across the country- even the 0fer teams Ive helped didnt have HALF TRUE MMPS |
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Post by davecisar on Oct 24, 2010 16:28:08 GMT -6
I might add- this year we had 30 kids at 1 age group. We split into 2 teams and BEGGED our kids and parents to get us 12 more kids- they did and we ended up with 21 per team or so.
34 is TOO many for 1 team IMO
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tate
Freshmen Member
Posts: 43
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Post by tate on Oct 24, 2010 18:59:11 GMT -6
Dave, I love your rules, they are great, they get results . But they are not the rules we are stuck with and would be against the rules set up by our Federation. It is my understanding that you are the lord of your own house, many of us are not. I also agree 34 is way too many for a youth team, also not our choice, the max per our rules is 36, and they turn no one away, they want the fee money. I did not mean to hijack this thread, but was looking for a way to motive the kids to show up for practice that did not take away playing time. Should we make them run when they do show up after missing, maybe I could give each one a dollar at the end of each week who did not miss any practices that week. Thats the kind of thing I was looking for, something that worked for somebody else that deals with the same kind of playing rules we have. I never meant this to be about what a MMP is or is not but that would be a good thread. Jon
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Post by davecisar on Oct 24, 2010 19:51:36 GMT -6
Coach
I mentioned the reasons I thought we never had kids miss
It has little to do with the 2 misses- if it did, we would have all the kids with 1 miss-
Great practices, few practices, great pace, everyone involved, no wasted movement, FUN= no one wanting to miss a single practice IMO
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 24, 2010 21:14:57 GMT -6
I also agree 34 is way too many for a youth team, also not our choice, the max per our rules is 36, and they turn no one away, they want the fee money. Aha. So if they let teams like yours split into 2, their costs would go up because they'd have more games (more field time, more officials), and they'd need more volunteers to coach. So the experience gets spread thin over the kids. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Oct 25, 2010 7:29:07 GMT -6
36 on a team? that would be my mathematical limit! Our rules say every kid has to play 1 quarter (vague, I know). Assuming that means a true quarter, and not a quarter of one side of the ball (which might be nothing some games). So, 9 on the field by 4 quarters is 36. But then, am I really being fair to the kids?
This year, if recruiting goes well, I have to decide what to do, whether to split the team, which would be rough on me, since I also have a day job, and my coaching may suffer for it, and if so, how, should I split the team (weird, since it`s a school team) evenly or put the younger kids on a team to get more fundamental coaching and prep them for the varsity. Or, do I keep a team too big to be competitive and give kids meaningful playing time, or do I suggest (not force) to some of the really, really awful kids (the ones who are concerned with football 'operations') that they take a year to grow, physically and mentally.
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Post by mhcoach on Oct 25, 2010 8:02:14 GMT -6
I look back over the years & shake my head at all things I have done wrong. I also think how much I have changed as a coach. When I coached in NYC we had 45 man roster limits our average team had 32 players. We also had no MMP rules, it was a different league & we were an elite travel team. Our practices were nightmares for the players, very physical & lots of conditioning. As time went by & I became a better coach my practices became shorter & more efficient. We conditioned less because our drills actually conditioned for us. When I first went & watched spring practice at the college level, I was amazed at the intensity & pace. I also was thrilled to see the attention to detail & fundamentals. We don't tell our RB's how to take a hand off we drill them, we don't tell our OLine to take a a 6" zone step we drill them. On & on, we break everything down & drill it. All this has led to better more efficient practice, which in turn means less injuries & better attendance. Yes it has taken time to learn this, but the results are well worth the effort.
Joe
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Post by daveinsarasota on Oct 25, 2010 11:43:28 GMT -6
Dave,
I wish I knew the secret to coaching in the inner city. I am going to do it again next year. I have always been spoiled with excellent parental support, equipment and facilities, when I coached in the organization that is walking distance from my house... Our kids were so conditioned to winning that the thought of a loss would never cross their mind. During those years, losses in the regionals, prior to disney, were especially hard on the boys...
No that I am coaching in the ghetto...many things strike me right off the bat...the most glaring being horrible fundamentals. I am coaching 12 and 13 year olds, and in a lot of ways, they have been doing things wrong for so long...that it was a real struggle to get the to do it right.
At least we turned it around at the end and closed the season out with 3 straight wins...
Now, I know that it would appear that I am veering off topic (pardon the pun), but the reality is that with my group of players, starting at 23, ending at 19...I had real issues with parental support, and just overall apathy form the kids, their parents, and the community.
I hope that I am able to change the attitude in that area...but I am at a loss with what to do, to change the culture, to one of a team winning culture...
Sorry for the sudden left turn....
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Post by davecisar on Oct 26, 2010 4:24:36 GMT -6
Dave,
Did that for about 10 years- stated program there built it to about 400 kids in 5 years etc- coached multiple teams
One game we had just 2 parents there- not enough for a chain gang- 25 players
Some of my best kids- parents didnt go to a single game in 5 years. My coaches and I transported all the kids
OTOH- we have had over 300 people at a championship game- same group
When you get on a roll and get a few of the what is percieved to be leaders in the area interested- you can get crowds- if you win
Expect to give TONS of logistical support and personal attention to the kids
You have to earn their trust- it isnt automatic
Consistency is key
Lots of encouragement as you build accountability
EXPECT apathy- it is a guarantee
Make your kids WANT to spend time with you/the team
Dont lower your standards
Chemistry/Character #1 there- just like it should be everywhere you want to build a cohesive winning team
If you dont win over the long haul- you dont survive there
Had well over 80% perfect attendance record and lost 0-2 players every season- never more than that. Only lost 2 kids from the first team- had 36 kids and 1 coach- but 32 with perfect attendance. Rest of the seasons we lost 0-1 kids from squad sizes of about 25.
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Post by daveinsarasota on Oct 26, 2010 8:45:14 GMT -6
Dave,
I learned that this year for sure. I did not expect the lgostical support or personal attention I would be required to give them. I also was shocked at the apathy from everyone. It took all year, but we closed it out at the end of the season with wins.
We had 23 kids to start the season...ended with 19. Actually, my attendance was very good this year. Another coach commented that our kids always seemed fired up...but I did not see that. I am used to things out in suburbia, I guess for that organization, my team stood out.
Of the 4 kids that left...one was a kid I coached for years, at the other organization, and left our team to go back. That was a personal dissapoointment. Another kid did not get certified, due to weight...the other two, I cut for continued insubordination.
I am most definitely going to purchase your series on character and chemistry. I knew full well that it is THE most important thing, especially in that area. Xs and Os are simple to implement, comparatviely speaking...
Even though all of this seems out of context of the original post, it applies.
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