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Post by coachcb on Oct 6, 2010 15:09:38 GMT -6
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 6, 2010 16:02:24 GMT -6
I coach and have lived in RI my whole life (except for college) and as you know it's a tiny state. I have never even heard of this St. George's team. There's roughly only 46 or so high school football teams in RI and this team is not in any RI classification or Division which tells me they must be an independent team and must make up there own schedule. And my question to that is why schedule this team if you don't have to. This is very bizarre.
This is the problem with society and our youth. They get everythign handed to them and when adversity strikes they have no idea how to deal with it and overcome it.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 6, 2010 16:17:46 GMT -6
I coach and have lived in RI my whole life (except for college) and as you know it's a tiny state. I have never even heard of this St. George's team. There's roughly only 46 or so high school football teams in RI and this team is not in any RI classification or Division which tells me they must be an independent team and must make up there own schedule. And my question to that is why schedule this team if you don't have to. This is very bizarre. This is the problem with society and our youth. They get everythign handed to them and when adversity strikes they have no idea how to deal with it and overcome it. This one kind of hit a nerve because we've run into a serious numbers issue right now. If we've got enough to suit up, we're playin' ball, there's no way around it. Like I said, I don't get it. What I really don't understand is this idea that it could be called a 'no contest'. That's crap; you don't want to play the game, you forfeit. They win, you lose.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 6, 2010 16:37:03 GMT -6
This teaches the kids nothing. I hope their is some sort of penalty handed down to this schools because if not then what stops other teams from doing it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2010 17:20:34 GMT -6
None of this makes sense:
"St. George's athletic director and football coach John MacKay said "People don't understand what schools like St. George's are all about. Our students are into much more than athletics. Athletic success is so secondary in a place like this.''
With that attitude, and that level of arrogance and full body vaginitis, it should be non-existent. Why even bother to field a team?!?
"While St. George's withdrawal is a clear black eye on the ISL, the other possible solutions presented to coach MacKay were equally unpalatable. Among other options, Lawrence Academy reportedly offered to play the game at "half speed" to ensure no players got hurt. That hardly seems like a positive message to send to a program that claims it is trying to build gradual success among a young core of players."
WTF!?!?!? They seriously offered to play at half speed just to keep their opponents from canceling the game!?!?!?!
"Other coaches in the game have privately voiced their displeasure with Lawrence Academy. Judging by the volume of hits this story (which the Herald first broke yesterday morning) has received, it's certainly a newsworthy issue. What remains to be seen is whether any other team in the league follows suit and refuses to play LA.
League administrators were scheduled to meet this morning and we're sure one of the hot topics will be how to handle this situation. Is it a forfeit against SG or a no contest. You also have to believe that they will be feeling out the rest of Lawrence Academy opponents to see if they have plans on playing the game."
So the other coaches in the league are mad at LA for being too big and good, so they may refuse to play them too? And they get a "no contest" on their record to stay unbeaten? Seriously... WTF are these schools and coaches doing even fielding teams if they're going to behave like this?
Unbelievable.
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Post by k on Oct 6, 2010 17:32:54 GMT -6
We had a team forfeit against us last year so they didn't get hurt. We had a large senior line and they had their entire senior and junior classes quit. It was the right call on their part.
However I have to say that reading the comments on that and on the other post it linked to (about some female player) made me want to vomit.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 6, 2010 17:55:11 GMT -6
There's only one time where I can see this being an acceptable course of action; you're down to your underclassmen. BUT, even then, you may forfeit the varsity game, but you still play a JV game. If a JV game is scheduled; you schedule one.
I find it funny that the sports writer didn't report the heights or weights of the St. George's squad.
Also; they can complain all they want; the school's enrollments are in the same ball park: 350-400 kids.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 6, 2010 18:32:26 GMT -6
We had a team forfeit against us last year so they didn't get hurt. We had a large senior line and they had their entire senior and junior classes quit. Quit? How does that happen? You mean the school closed their 11th & 12th grades? I've heard of schools closing the other way, not admitting new classes, but never from the "top". Considering the mention of weight disparities, is there still lightweight football for HS, or is that just college clubs now?
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 6, 2010 20:02:58 GMT -6
This REEKS of a being a Football Factory in an Academic School League. We have a few football factories here in Louisiana, but public/private are mixed in the major organization. Nobody of any real merit plays in the private league. I actually can see where the school is coming from, and understand their move. Seems like a school has changed its values since entering the league and now is a different school with different emphasis on sports, and different "values" when it comes to a schools purpose.
Evangel Christian was such a program. It "magically" seemed to field a team of over 100 kids, with 4 straight division 1 BCS quarterbacks, players moving in from TX to play for them, Multiple BCS players..a record of 60-0 (on the field..they had some forfeits in the streak due to ineligible player use) with an enrollment of less than 300. They did this through "prayer, hard work, sacrifice, and the ECA spirit". Somehow the ECA spirit was unable to help them to EVEN FIELD a girls basketball team...the most popular girls sport in Louisiana. Couldnt field a team..... 1/3 of the population dressed out for football..couldn't get 7 girls. Had to forfeit the season and the next.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 6, 2010 20:47:13 GMT -6
Our NG is 5'6" 145 lbs. and he will be lining up against a 6'6" 320 kid Friday. Notice I said, "will".
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newb
Sophomore Member
Posts: 191
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Post by newb on Oct 6, 2010 21:08:14 GMT -6
So why doesn't St. George call "no contest" for the rest of the season and make it to the playoffs with an undefeated record? There is something seriously wrong going on here. What message are they sending to the kids,when you get into the real world, and it comes down to you or a much better candidate for a job, you can call "no contest" and get the job?
I don't care if your school is "into so much more than athletics" they obviously see some value to athletics otherwise they wouldn't have them. However, if you're not even going to try because you think you're going to get killed, then why bother in the first place?
Shoot when I was in HS we played a team with an O-Line that weighed 255, 320, 295, 300, and 280. Our D-Line was 200, 155, 170, and 175. We didn't even think about not playing. We just stayed low and hoped they didn't fall on us. We got killed, but we still played.
"Football doesn't build character, it reveals it"
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Post by coachcb on Oct 7, 2010 9:01:56 GMT -6
This REEKS of a being a Football Factory in an Academic School League. We have a few football factories here in Louisiana, but public/private are mixed in the major organization. Nobody of any real merit plays in the private league. I actually can see where the school is coming from, and understand their move. Seems like a school has changed its values since entering the league and now is a different school with different emphasis on sports, and different "values" when it comes to a schools purpose. Evangel Christian was such a program. It "magically" seemed to field a team of over 100 kids, with 4 straight division 1 BCS quarterbacks, players moving in from TX to play for them, Multiple BCS players..a record of 60-0 (on the field..they had some forfeits in the streak due to ineligible player use) with an enrollment of less than 300. They did this through "prayer, hard work, sacrifice, and the ECA spirit". Somehow the ECA spirit was unable to help them to EVEN FIELD a girls basketball team...the most popular girls sport in Louisiana. Couldnt field a team..... 1/3 of the population dressed out for football..couldn't get 7 girls. Had to forfeit the season and the next. That was my thought, after taking a look at the league. However, I don't believe that forfeiting a game is a good way to prove your point. It sounds like everyone in the league is irked at Lawrence; they need to plead their case to the state, citing the kinds of examples you have given.
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Post by phantom on Oct 7, 2010 9:54:47 GMT -6
This REEKS of a being a Football Factory in an Academic School League. We have a few football factories here in Louisiana, but public/private are mixed in the major organization. Nobody of any real merit plays in the private league. I actually can see where the school is coming from, and understand their move. Seems like a school has changed its values since entering the league and now is a different school with different emphasis on sports, and different "values" when it comes to a schools purpose. Evangel Christian was such a program. It "magically" seemed to field a team of over 100 kids, with 4 straight division 1 BCS quarterbacks, players moving in from TX to play for them, Multiple BCS players..a record of 60-0 (on the field..they had some forfeits in the streak due to ineligible player use) with an enrollment of less than 300. They did this through "prayer, hard work, sacrifice, and the ECA spirit". Somehow the ECA spirit was unable to help them to EVEN FIELD a girls basketball team...the most popular girls sport in Louisiana. Couldnt field a team..... 1/3 of the population dressed out for football..couldn't get 7 girls. Had to forfeit the season and the next. Doesn't look much like a factory. www.boardingschoolreview.com/school_ov/school_id/353
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Post by wingtol on Oct 7, 2010 10:52:54 GMT -6
This REEKS of a being a Football Factory in an Academic School League. We have a few football factories here in Louisiana, but public/private are mixed in the major organization. Nobody of any real merit plays in the private league. I actually can see where the school is coming from, and understand their move. Seems like a school has changed its values since entering the league and now is a different school with different emphasis on sports, and different "values" when it comes to a schools purpose. Evangel Christian was such a program. It "magically" seemed to field a team of over 100 kids, with 4 straight division 1 BCS quarterbacks, players moving in from TX to play for them, Multiple BCS players..a record of 60-0 (on the field..they had some forfeits in the streak due to ineligible player use) with an enrollment of less than 300. They did this through "prayer, hard work, sacrifice, and the ECA spirit". Somehow the ECA spirit was unable to help them to EVEN FIELD a girls basketball team...the most popular girls sport in Louisiana. Couldnt field a team..... 1/3 of the population dressed out for football..couldn't get 7 girls. Had to forfeit the season and the next. Doesn't look much like a factory. www.boardingschoolreview.com/school_ov/school_id/353They must find the richest 300 lbers to play for them with a day student tuition of 35,000 and a boarding tuition of 46,000 LOL In a situation like this I would think the superior team would call off the dogs after a few series if it were this bad of a mismatch. We played a team the last few years that had just started up football at a boys detention home. Let's just say the results were not pretty and we usually had our starters out by the first qtr. even by doing that last year they quit in the 4th quarter of the game when we had our frosh in there playing. They folded the program this year. I guess what I am saying is that I would think this super power team would be pulling kids early if it were that bad. At least I would hope.
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Post by phantom on Oct 7, 2010 12:59:28 GMT -6
Heard from a guy who is familiar with the situation and it seems that 5085 is right and that LA is a football factory. No wonder people want out of the game.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 7, 2010 13:48:28 GMT -6
I understand where the school is coming from, on some levels. However, I still think it sends a bad precedence, especially give that they're talking about calling it a 'no contest', versus a forfeit. If you don't want to play the game, then don't play it, but it should count as a loss. I looked at St. George's website yesterday and they have completely pulled that game from their schedule. Now, that cries b.s. to me; it stays on the schedule and it counts as a loss.
This is an issue that should have been addressed before the season started. If they didn't want to play Lawrence, they should have called the state association this summer and taken care of it then. You're halfway through the season and you decide to pull the game? IMO, they did this to get the media exposure; ditch the game, right in the middle of the season, and basically call Lawrence out. I seriously doubt this became an issue THIS week; it's been brewing for awhile.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 7, 2010 15:35:33 GMT -6
From the St. Lawrence stand point, if they are a football factory then why not play in a normal Massachusetts conference. Seems to me they are actually hurting their players chances of going to a good college by playing bum teams week in and week out. If I was a recruiter I'd be hesitant on some players because they arn't playing any competition.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 7, 2010 17:55:48 GMT -6
I understand where the school is coming from, on some levels. However, I still think it sends a bad precedence, especially give that they're talking about calling it a 'no contest', versus a forfeit. If you don't want to play the game, then don't play it, but it should count as a loss. I looked at St. George's website yesterday and they have completely pulled that game from their schedule. Now, that cries b.s. to me; it stays on the schedule and it counts as a loss. This is an issue that should have been addressed before the season started. If they didn't want to play Lawrence, they should have called the state association this summer and taken care of it then. Coach I am pretty sure they don't have a 'state" association. They are an Independent School league comprised of schools mostly from Massachusetts, with schools from Rhode Island, and New Hampshire also competing. I think you may be correct here, but is that a horrible thing. Bottom line, this is a group of EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE academic schools, and apparently a few have decided to emphasize football more than the others. It isn't all to far off from youth teams who bring "ringers" I am willing to bet that many of those talented players aren't paying their full tuition bill...and that might be a point of contention with others. Not sure how familiar many here are with these type of schools, but it becomes pretty obvious when kids who aren't the typical type of student are on the field.
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Post by coachjoe3 on Oct 8, 2010 0:22:25 GMT -6
We had 11 at our JV game Monday vs. a bigger team in numbers, size and school classification. I'm sure we weren't the first ones to do this nor will we be the last.
I see the bind they were in, but you just go with what you've got. That's what I was taught as a kid. Wish these kids were taught the same thing.
Was it John Wooden who said, don't let what you can't do get in the way of what you can do, or something like that?
Count it as a loss.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 8, 2010 5:34:46 GMT -6
We had 11 at our JV game Monday vs. a bigger team in numbers, size and school classification. I'm sure we weren't the first ones to do this nor will we be the last. I see the bind they were in, but you just go with what you've got. That's what I was taught as a kid. Wish these kids were taught the same thing. Was it John Wooden who said, don't let what you can't do get in the way of what you can do, or something like that? Count it as a loss. I would agree if this was a random happening. As others have noted, this is most likely a "statement" rather than a choice. This doesn't appear to be a one time thing. St. George's team is not saying "oh, you guys are way to big this year," because that is not what this is about. St. George's is saying "Hey, we don't believe this is what ISL football is supposed to be about" as evidenced by the talk of a "no contest" label. Anecdotes about small players and David v. Goliath situations are not really valid. A more valid comparison would be a neighborhood youth league where one or two of the teams seemingly have kids who are stars...and nobody really recalls them living in the neighborhood. Or perhaps if Dartmouth and Brown started bringing in Prop48 kids.
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kbrady
Freshmen Member
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Post by kbrady on Oct 8, 2010 7:30:54 GMT -6
In New England, our prep schools generally fall into 3 major leagues.... all under NEPSAC, Classes A, B, and C. Lawrence plays in Class B but brings in football players like most of the Class A schools. St George is a Class C.
Recently LA has brought in football talent in numbers greater than any other school in the league, including (based on ESPN/Scouts Inc ratings), 5 of the top 25 recruits this year from MA.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Oct 8, 2010 9:48:18 GMT -6
That is a sorry excuse. You roll with who you have and find a way to compete. I agree with others- WTF kind of message are you sending those kids by forfeiting? Injuries my a$$...maybe they should cancel the whole season then...
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Post by phantom on Oct 8, 2010 10:28:53 GMT -6
That is a sorry excuse. You roll with who you have and find a way to compete. I agree with others- WTF kind of message are you sending those kids by forfeiting? Injuries my a$$...maybe they should cancel the whole season then... I originally felt that way but now I'm favoring the "No contest". This team has changed who they are. This is no longer the team that was originally scheduled.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 8, 2010 10:38:33 GMT -6
I disagree with any private school that turns itself into a sports factory. There is a private school in the state that did the same thing with basketball. They even brought in kids from hours away and put them up in teachers', parents' and coaches' houses. It was ridiculous. BUT, they were reported to the state association and they paid for it.
These private schools may not answer to the state, but there is some kind of governing body involved. IMO, I don't think it's right to use the media to call Lawrence out because it puts the players in the middle of the whole ordeal. Lawrence and their staff may be recruiting kids and turning the program into a football factory, but it's not the players' fault that this is going on. They may be the top athletes in the state, but they're still pulling good enough grades to stay in a prestigious private school.
The league is p-ssed off at Lawrence, that's fine, they have a viable b-tch. But, again, you're in the middle of the season; if you're going to call it quits on a game that week, it goes down as a loss.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 8, 2010 10:48:42 GMT -6
That is a sorry excuse. You roll with who you have and find a way to compete. I agree with others- WTF kind of message are you sending those kids by forfeiting? Injuries my a$$...maybe they should cancel the whole season then... I originally felt that way but now I'm favoring the "No contest". This team has changed who they are. This is no longer the team that was originally scheduled. Actually they have known about Lawrence's football success. They have been a power house for a few years now. St. George's knew that, therefore they are the team they scheduled. They didn't just firgure this out last week. They should have taken them off the schedule before the season started, not the week of the game.
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Post by phantom on Oct 8, 2010 11:04:52 GMT -6
I originally felt that way but now I'm favoring the "No contest". This team has changed who they are. This is no longer the team that was originally scheduled. Actually they have known about Lawrence's football success. They have been a power house for a few years now. St. George's knew that, therefore they are the team they scheduled. They didn't just firgure this out last week. They should have taken them off the schedule before the season started, not the week of the game. Something's strange here. Is this a case of the headmaster at St. George's just not understanding how athletics is done-that there are no "No contests"? Or will this just be the first of several as other boarding schools use this as a protest against LA's "corrupting" their league?
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 8, 2010 11:46:36 GMT -6
That's why I don't like the "no contest" because what says other teams playing Lawrence won't do this. At that point I would feel for the players because they would never get to play a game.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 8, 2010 12:00:08 GMT -6
IMO, this is less of a 'Lawrence problem' and more of an overall league administrative issue. If this school has been dominating people for a few years now, then why is it just being addressed now?
As much as I disagree with private school's recruiting their way into powerhouses, I still think that this private school league needs to get some stuff figured out. Obviously, their major focus is academics, but when you field an athletic program, there's just a basic 'decorum' to dealing with it. You don't like what their doing, then you take them off of your schedule before the season starts. If the league isn't allowing you to do that, then you forfeit the game before the season starts.
This just seems like slippery slope to me; what happens if another team in the league isn't recruiting, but builds a dominant program? What's to stop these schools from crying 'foul', canceling that game, and calling it a 'no contest'? They're using the 'injury potential' as a scape goat to call Lawrence to task for what they're doing.
And, if athletics aren't a priority, then set up an intramural program.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2010 13:43:16 GMT -6
Someone pointed out earlier that they are ar B league team right? I guess if they've been dominating for a few years now, it seems the simple solution would be to bump them up to the A league.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 9, 2010 7:14:41 GMT -6
I originally felt that way but now I'm favoring the "No contest". This team has changed who they are. This is no longer the team that was originally scheduled. Actually they have known about Lawrence's football success. They have been a power house for a few years now. St. George's knew that, therefore they are the team they scheduled. They didn't just firgure this out last week. They should have taken them off the schedule before the season started, not the week of the game. I have to disagree slightly here. They may have been the team that was ON the schedule, but they probably weren't the team that joined the league 30+ years ago, and therefore willingly "scheduled" Keep in mind this is a cumulative effect. I am fairly sure that if Lawrence had a banner year with a couple of unusually talented players (for an exclusive prep school) everyone would remember the Lawrence team of 2010 as something special (relative to league). So a one or two year anomaly of a special class cycling through the school is one thing. If that was the case, then I would agree that canceling would be a total b.s. move. From reading the related articles, this is not such an event. It HAS happened over a few year span, and the "machine" seems to be growing stronger. Therefore one of the schools have said "enough". Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Will Lawrence change its football operation? Will they be allowed to remain in the league?
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