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Post by tog on Dec 11, 2007 7:28:48 GMT -6
lots of talk about this last night on MNF
on offense--what makes an aggressive playcaller?
on defense---what makes an aggressive playcaller?
is it just the amount of risk you are willing to take?
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 11, 2007 7:33:54 GMT -6
I think so. When a team turns the ball over you chuck it deep trying to kick em when they are down.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2007 7:34:59 GMT -6
I think there's aggressive playcalling and something beyond aggressive that borders on maniacal.
For myself, I want to be aggressive enough that if someone's going to take advantage of my aggressive defensive calls then they'll have to be more aggressive than I am.
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Post by brophy on Dec 11, 2007 7:56:23 GMT -6
"aggressive" - in my mind means staying organic, congealing to your opponent and never giving them firm footing in a game plan.
That probably isn't a standard definition, but it is how I see it. It means taking the offensive with a guerrilla mindset.
Plodding out and giving you the same predictable look, isn't (in my mind) 'aggressive'. That is MY IDEA of being "Passive", keeping consistent tendencies.
Some might say blitzing the house on defense or going 5 verts on offense is "aggressive", but if THAT is your game plan, to me, its just reckless.
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 11, 2007 7:58:35 GMT -6
How about ALWAYS GOING FOR TWO...aggressive enough?
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Post by olinecoach61 on Dec 11, 2007 8:01:40 GMT -6
Well we went for 2 95% of the time this year, but it was because we had no kicking game. To me aggressive is consistently throwing deep in a close game or sending the house with man coverage.
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Post by wildcat on Dec 11, 2007 8:04:22 GMT -6
Some coaches have the mentality that they will take what the offense or defense gives them. They will call plays based on percieved "weaknesses" in the offense or defense.
On the other hand, there are coaches who are going to call their plays no matter what (the doesn't matter what "they" do, only matters what "we" do mentality). IMO, that is "aggressive".
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 11, 2007 8:18:48 GMT -6
Going for it on 4th and 3 from your own end of the field?? is that aggressive.
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ex-centralcoach
Junior Member
[F4:@marcmarinelli ] [F4:marcmarinelli]
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Post by ex-centralcoach on Dec 11, 2007 8:28:15 GMT -6
For me on offense i try to be aggressive with the Tempo of the game, getting to the line under 4.5 seconds from the break, quick candence, etc.
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Post by morris on Dec 11, 2007 8:39:29 GMT -6
There is a number of factors that go into this I think.
1. Level: Going for it on 4th and 3 in MS or youth is not aggressive. It might not be in HS in some cases.
2. Your offense: If you throw 30-40+ times a game as opposed to running the ball 40+ times then certain things are going to come across as aggressive play calling. Getting a little out of your norm I guess.
3. the game itself: Is it the first game of the year or a playoff champiosnhip game. Watched a team this weekend go for it on 4th and 2 from the 2 down by 3 in a state championship game. You do that in a different game it may come across as different.
I think of Martz as an aggressive play caller a good deal. When you force the tempo or issue I find that aggressive. Bowden has an article in which he talks about hating to wait to score. Some teams take a very methodical approach lets put together some first downs type of thinking. Others it is almost as if 1st downs are a secound thought. I am not usre if that makes sense or not but it is less poetic then Brophy's.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 11, 2007 8:42:37 GMT -6
Well, when you consider running bucksweep out of orbit motion (or jet or fly sweep out of the same action) agressive, then I think it doesn't take much. Is it just me? or can anyone else stand to listen to two people who really know nothng about the game?
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Post by coachorr on Dec 11, 2007 8:44:19 GMT -6
BTW, from what I did watch in the first half, when the Saints did punt the ball they only netted three yards. And then Corheiser and Tiricco say, "Well, if that is all you can get maybe you should go for it on fourth and short". Yeah, maybe.
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Post by gunslinger on Dec 11, 2007 8:46:29 GMT -6
If you read Tiger Ellison's old book on the origin of the Run & Shoot, he talks about the basic concepts of the offense (displaying the ball vs. hiding it, hit 'em where they ain't...)
One of them was "score now vs. score eventually."
I would think the coach that is trying to score now would be an aggressive play caller.
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 11, 2007 8:49:26 GMT -6
"aggressive play-calling" & "physical" & "sophisticated" are all just wonderful words the media uses and has ingrained so many (fans and coaches alike) with what these are and how they are paramount to success.
why don't they use the words "effective" or "efficient" when discussing play-calling? is it not "flashy" enough? i give a rat's ass if someone thinks i'm "aggressive" or not ... playing the game is about winning (and, no, i'm not talking about all the intangibles of life lessons --- simply winning vs being "aggressive" or "physical"). what dumbass would rather say, "well, we lost but daing sure were more physical than them. and our playcalling was so aggressive."?
just get sick of cliche and "clinic-speak" that has no tangible data to really define it NOR a way to quantify just how successful and pertinent such cliches are to actually wins could we define it.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Dec 11, 2007 10:40:58 GMT -6
"aggressive" - in my mind means staying organic, congealing to your opponent and never giving them firm footing in a game plan. That probably isn't a standard definition, but it is how I see it. It means taking the offensive with a guerrilla mindset. Plodding out and giving you the same predictable look, isn't (in my mind) 'aggressive'. That is MY IDEA of being "Passive", keeping consistent tendencies. Some might say blitzing the house on defense or going 5 verts on offense is "aggressive", but if THAT is your game plan, to me, its just reckless. 15. The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat: let such a one be dismissed! 16. While heeding the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful circumstances over and beyond the ordinary rules. 17. According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans. 18. All warfare is based on deception. 19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. 20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. 21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. 22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. 23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. 24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected. 25. These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand. ...this is the Way of true aggression, Grasshopper...
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Post by brophy on Dec 11, 2007 10:46:57 GMT -6
15. The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat: let such a one be dismissed! 16. While heeding the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful circumstances over and beyond the ordinary rules. 17. According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans. 18. All warfare is based on deception. 19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. 20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. 21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. 22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. 23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. 24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected. 25. These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand. ...this is the Way of true aggression, Grasshopper... yeah, I hear ya.....that Mr.Miyagi was a real sonovabiotch
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Post by coachbw on Dec 11, 2007 15:52:03 GMT -6
We call our offense in a manner that we feel gives us a chance to put ourselfs in a position to get first downs. For example, on 2nd and 12 we are generally looking for 6 or 7 yeards to get us to a 3rd and medium sitution.
To us, agressive play calling is when we run something that has a higher chance than other things in our offense to put is in a long yardage situation. For example, for us throwing a fade on 1st and 10 is agressive. Why? Because there is a higher chance of being in 2nd and long than if we were to run one of our base plays (zone, iso, hitch, slant, boot). Running a reverse on 2nd and 2 is not agressive because even if we lose a few yards we still feel like we are in a reasonable spot to pick up a first down on the next play.
Again though, this is all just perception as our fans will look at this very differently than we do as a staff.
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Post by wildcat on Dec 11, 2007 15:57:12 GMT -6
This guy is a pretty aggressive play caller...I'm pretty sure that the Mongols ran the Double Wing...
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7523
Freshmen Member
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Post by 7523 on Dec 11, 2007 18:06:00 GMT -6
Is it aggressive if it works, and bad playcalling if it does not?
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Post by dubber on Dec 11, 2007 18:59:14 GMT -6
I agree with Huey, but I think the terms "aggressive" and "physical" has it's advantages.........not with the media, but with your team.
Swagger makes kids think they are giant killers.
If kids buy in and believe they are the aggressor or they are more physical, then it can translate into a higher level of performance on the field.
BTW, it is not exclusive to the type of offense you run:
There are physical Air Raid teams (I know one that refuses to go out of bounds----they lower the pads and hit defenders)
There are aggressive DW teams (like calande's examples)
It boils down to the attitude you want to ingrain into your players (which is a bigger part of coaching, imo, than x's and o's)
your team can put attitude into the scheme
BUT
your scheme cannot put attitude into your team
That's our (the coaches) job
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Post by dubber on Dec 11, 2007 19:02:22 GMT -6
Case in point, the google ad at the top of the page right now:
DUI Arrest? We can help Experienced DUI Lawyers in Phoenix Free Consult - Beyond Aggressive!
That law firm is selling their consumers on the fact their aggression as a good thing
Much like how a football coach needs to sell his players that his scheme is aggressive/physical/whatever
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Post by tog on Dec 11, 2007 19:19:10 GMT -6
This guy is a pretty aggressive play caller...I'm pretty sure that the Mongols ran the Double Wing... that is my favorite movie quote evar btw i have to not turn into conan sometimes when thinking about the x and o's though "hey we can just run over em" sometimes not so much
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Post by touchdowng on Dec 12, 2007 22:17:51 GMT -6
Being aggressive in playcalling (taking the players out of the equation) means being attack minded. Looking for that score and finding those mismatches. Not being afraid to come back to something that works earlier in a game.
Being willing to disregard down/distance and just attack, attack, attack.
Some offenses lend themself to this philosophy, some do not. Or at least not as well. Just my own personal belief.
I believe our offense does and we like to believe we are aggressive. We preach it and we teach it. How you practice it is half of the battle. Executing it on gameday is the other half but you can't have one without the other.
An aggressive attack attitude is part of the playcalling philosophy.
You have to practice it and demand it.
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Post by pegleg on Dec 12, 2007 22:35:26 GMT -6
tog you are right.......best quote ever.
as far as aggressive..............for me its when do you go for it on 4th down, go for 2, atttack on 2nd and short. if you run the ball 40 times a game you, by definition, are not aggressive. aggresion in football is trying for the big play on every down. there is no big play when your offense is based on buck sweep and trap. aggression is when you run a vertical concept on every other down. just my opinion, i could be wrong..............
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Post by los on Dec 12, 2007 23:14:34 GMT -6
Good answers! How bout.... the situation being the same.... an aggressive play caller = plays to win ...... a conservative play caller = plays "not" to lose ?
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Post by biggerblue on Dec 17, 2007 0:09:08 GMT -6
when im making my playcalls i like to litterally ram it down there throat either through the air or the ground ( my preffered way)
but sometimes like any person youll get over agressive and then youll make a stupid call and mess up yur game
like my very first game when i got OC which was this year i ran this 1 play we got called BLACK RIGHT 262 DOUBLE LEAP FROG OPTION and i told the Qb to take the option and keep it himself and that was a pretty stupid because the play itself without the option is super super effective and just about everytime we run it without the option we get about 10+ yards and 45% of the time its a TD ... so when the play started and he took the option... my playside tackle who was new to the school and offense blocked the wrong guy and the OLB came in and slammed our starting QB and he broke his wrist and i felt so bad.... but we still finihed the season 10-1 which was good... but because i kept trying to run stuff ou of our super series like 7 times in a row a kid of ours got hurt.... very very stupid on my part
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Post by goldenbear76 on Dec 17, 2007 0:40:57 GMT -6
I think Aggressive Playcalling changes meaning with the level that your coaching at. For one, many high school defenses aren't going to hide their coverages very well, most stay in 1 or 2 coverages the entire game. Now, you get into college and you see 5 different coverages, I think your definition of aggressive changes. To me, calling a game that doesn't follow a pattern and keeps the defense guessing is aggressive. 3rd down and 9 and you run a counter tag. That's aggressive to me. 4th and inches, you throw a slant/flat. Thats aggressive.
Also want to note, how many coaches 2nd guess themselves on a call, but afterwards..you see it on film and the play should of been made or pass completed...in other words, you made the right call, your team just didn't execute. I don't think any coach should be down on themselves if they make a call that was the right call, but execution prevented it from happening.
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Post by justwingit on Dec 17, 2007 7:31:09 GMT -6
what makes an aggressive playcaller ----- tenure!
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Post by jhanawa on Dec 17, 2007 10:39:26 GMT -6
I don't think throwing deep all of time or going for it on 4th down all of the time make you aggressive so much as it makes you predictable. I think aggressive (or efficient, I like that better) playcalling is having your entire playbook being a potential threat from any position on the field. We will throw it or run the option from our one yard line or theirs, to others this might seem aggressive, to us it is what we practice and what we do. I think being unpredictable on any down is more desirable than "aggressive", but I guess the two could be considered the same depending on the point of view. A guy who can line up and pound it down the field and then hit the play action is just as aggressive and effiecent if he has the horses to do it.
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 17, 2007 10:44:38 GMT -6
I don't think throwing deep all of time or going for it on 4th down all of the time make you aggressive so much as it makes you predictable. I think aggressive (or efficient, I like that better) playcalling is having your entire playbook being a potential threat from any position on the field. We will throw it or run the option from our one yard line or theirs, to others this might seem aggressive, to us it is what we practice and what we do. I think being unpredictable on any down is more desirable than "aggressive", but I guess the two could be considered the same depending on the point of view. A guy who can line up and pound it down the field and then hit the play action is just as aggressive and effiecent if he has the horses to do it. It's interesting, what you describe is someone who has a "grab bag" of plays. There is another thread (actually, more than one) that talks about offenses that have a philosophy vs those that are just a grab bag of plays. I think...an aggressive play-caller...and easily be confused with someone who has a grab bag of plays!
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