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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 1, 2010 20:31:17 GMT -6
Today before practice I was talking to the president of our organization. I brought up that during the tryouts period the club has the coaches teach all players a 3-point stance, but then after they're picked for teams, when the ball is snapped...and he completed my sentence, "...they all stand up." He too laments the fact that the coaches, thinking there's not enough time, decide to spend almost none of it on form. He said the same thing that I thought, that under those circumstances, teaching them 3 pt. is a waste, because the coaches, rather than using it as a starting point for getting the lines to fire out, just do scrimmage-style drills, and of course the kids being uncomfortable in the unnatural position do the simple thing of coming up before attempting to move forward -- which means that they hardly move forward at all. So he thinks as I do that under those circumstances, they'd be better off starting in 2 pt. and not spending time pre-draft club-wide on the 3 pt. stance -- and maybe that's how they'll do it next year. Especially since the Parks Dept. lost the club's chute!
By the subject line above I mean it's like the 3 pt. stance is half a bridge, which is worse than worthless without the other half, because you either go off the end into the water or have to waste your time turning around. I noticed that at the first practice after our roster was set, the first thing our HC did was check every player's 3-pt. stance, checking them for balance in it. I think he just assumed that somewhere along the line he or the ACs would teach them the steps, but it just wasn't a priority. Nor was it a priority for the other teams AFAICT.
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Post by mhcoach on Oct 2, 2010 8:04:38 GMT -6
Bob
This is exactly the problem with youth football. Instead of fixing the obvious, you try to find a way around it. What gets lost here is fundamentals. What makes Football such a great sport is the simple fact it is a work ethic sport. Poor teams will always say the better teams are loaded with talent. The truth is the better teams work harder & smarter. I can't tell you the amount of time we spend on basics. Getting our linemen to fire out & maintain good pad level is paramount to our success. We work on these things every day.
I know you are in a situation where you don't have the authority to change practice routines. That doesn't mean you can't contribute in some way. Wild schemes & different techniques aren't the answer. Reading your posts, the best coaching you have done is working with players on the side & teaching basics. Learn from this & use to be successfull in the future.
Good Luck!
Joe
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 2, 2010 16:01:12 GMT -6
This is exactly the problem with youth football. Instead of fixing the obvious, you try to find a way around it. What gets lost here is fundamentals. But to work on fundamentals they need people interested in teaching them. Our president knows this, he's an old (and I do mean old) football guy. But they've moved into administration. As I'm sure you and everyone will acknowledge, youth football needs good administators, and if you had to choose between their services as coaches and as administrators, you'd choose to have them as administrators, because otherwise an organiz'n can fall apart. He also acknowledges that we don't attract as good a player as do the team-based clubs that play extramurally, and that's only partially because of our lower weight limits. This organization used to work that way, then changed to house ball, and I bet that change was around the time the old guys got out of coaching and decided to hold the club together by reorienting it this way with them in admin. Most of them are also involved in baseball and who knows what else. We have good cx with SUNY Maritime College and elsewhere, so you won't see us using a bit of what was basically back yard semi-officially for practice, turning it into a dust bowl, like the North Bronx Youth Sports Ass'n. So that leaves mostly daddy coaches. A few stay on with the organiz'n as coaches and rise above the daddy category. However, most of them look at the short practice schedule, and their judgement says (even if they know the fundamentals, which I think many of them don't) that there's not enough time to teach form systematically, and they figure they can motivate the kids best by concentrating on scrimmage type practices. |
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Post by barkhimkh78 on Oct 29, 2010 20:24:26 GMT -6
I am one of those "daddy coaches" and to make it worse i don't have a football background to draw from. This season is almost over for me but i have had way more fun than i thought i would coaching and plan to do it next year. As the hc of my team I understand both sides of what you are saying and I just have to wonder if you have talked to the hc of your team about this. My best coaching decision was to get some AC's, also daddy coach's, with experience I could draw from. I don't know your HC but i favor a direct approach if you have not tried talking to him I don't see where i would hurt
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Post by davecisar on Oct 30, 2010 4:21:15 GMT -6
Bob This is exactly the problem with youth football. Instead of fixing the obvious, you try to find a way around it. What gets lost here is fundamentals. What makes Football such a great sport is the simple fact it is a work ethic sport. Poor teams will always say the better teams are loaded with talent. The truth is the better teams work harder & smarter. I can't tell you the amount of time we spend on basics. Getting our linemen to fire out & maintain good pad level is paramount to our success. We work on these things every day. I know you are in a situation where you don't have the authority to change practice routines. That doesn't mean you can't contribute in some way. Wild schemes & different techniques aren't the answer. Reading your posts, the best coaching you have done is working with players on the side & teaching basics. Learn from this & use to be successfull in the future. Good Luck! Joe Joe Amen The worst coaches in the league I coach in always talk about players at the end of games or in scouting The best coaches in the league talk about schemes, technique and discipline Never fails |
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Post by mhcoach on Oct 30, 2010 7:25:03 GMT -6
DC
Everything always comes down to basics. You run a great youth system you have developed, it allows you to teach great basics & have an answer to any situation. Where these other guys continually get in trouble is trying to get around the basics. You know I run a youth Spread Offense, we could talk routes vs coverages all day, but protection scheme's & blocking technique are more important.
One question has been popping up lately, do I get all the best players or do I make my players the best? Pasco Paul(my Oline coach) & I have been tossing this one around. I look at players on other teams & see just as much talent as we have, but either they are playing the wrong position or just not "coached up". Saying all this I still realize I am not Vince Lombardi or Nick Saban. Yet as I look around the country checking on what teams I will see, consistently I see the same coaches winning. I read your posts & tend to agree with you about 95% of the time. You have found a way to make this available to everyone, & for that I thank you!
Joe
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 30, 2010 7:53:25 GMT -6
Saying all this I still realize I am not Vince Lombardi or Nick Saban. Don't sell yourselves short. Neither of those guys did much with average players. Saban had one big year at MSU...the rest was average. Miami was not very successful. He excels when he is the BIG DOG --LSU is the "only" school in LA. Alabama is the Big dog over Auburn.. |
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Post by blb on Oct 30, 2010 8:26:21 GMT -6
Saying all this I still realize I am not Vince Lombardi or Nick Saban. Don't sell yourselves short. Neither of those guys did much with average players. With regard to Lombardi - going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're too young to know what you're talking about. When he went to Green Bay in 1959 the Packers had had gone 11 years without a winning season, were 1-10-1 in '58. They went 7-5 his first year, were in NFL championship game the next year. Redskins were 5-9 the year before he coached them and hadn't been over .500 in 13 years. In his only season guiding them Skins improved to 7-5-2. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 30, 2010 8:54:21 GMT -6
Taking Jim Ringo out of the discussion (because he played the bulk of his career prior to Lombardi's arrival) You still have 10 NFL hall of fame players. Doesn't that become a chicken and egg argument? Did he make them HOFers or did THEY make HIM?
1. Herb Adderley (1961-1969)
2. Willie Davis (1960-1969)
3. Forrest Gregg (1956, 1958-1970)
4. Paul Hornung (1957-1962, 1964-1966)
5. Henry Jordan (1959-1969)
6. Ray Nitschke (1958-1972)
7. Bart Starr (1956-1971)
8. Jim Taylor (1958-1966)
9. Emlen Tunnell (1959-1961)
10. Willie Wood (1960-1971)
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Post by blb on Oct 30, 2010 8:59:14 GMT -6
Taking Jim Ringo out of the discussion (because he played the bulk of his career prior to Lombardi's arrival) You still have 10 NFL hall of fame players. Did he make them HOFers or did THEY make HIM? If you had heard or read anything from those and other Packers of the Lombardi era, you would know the answer. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 30, 2010 9:12:32 GMT -6
Taking Jim Ringo out of the discussion (because he played the bulk of his career prior to Lombardi's arrival) You still have 10 NFL hall of fame players. Did he make them HOFers or did THEY make HIM? If you had heard or read anything from those and other Packers of the Lombardi era, you would know the answer. I have...I dub them cliched responses coach. Lombardi is also the guy who had Nitschke pound on a concussed Bill Curry's head for an hour to see if Curry was tough enough to make the team... He has Great credentials, but lets not over-romanticize the past...and keep in mind the point was for youth coaches to recognize that Lombardi/saban et all..are not the end all be all for coaches. |
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Post by davecisar on Oct 30, 2010 9:36:34 GMT -6
DC Everything always comes down to basics. You run a great youth system you have developed, it allows you to teach great basics & have an answer to any situation. Where these other guys continually get in trouble is trying to get around the basics. You know I run a youth Spread Offense, we could talk routes vs coverages all day, but protection scheme's & blocking technique are more important. One question has been popping up lately, do I get all the best players or do I make my players the best? Pasco Paul(my Oline coach) & I have been tossing this one around. I look at players on other teams & see just as much talent as we have, but either they are playing the wrong position or just not "coached up". Saying all this I still realize I am not Vince Lombardi or Nick Saban. Yet as I look around the country checking on what teams I will see, consistently I see the same coaches winning. I read your posts & tend to agree with you about 95% of the time. You have found a way to make this available to everyone, & for that I thank you! Joe Interesting when I looked into the spread a little and kind of payed a ton of attention to Mike Leach, his offense is really pretty simple stuff. Handful of really well executed integrated plays. All curl, some shallow concept, Smash concept, maybe Y stick etc But man they execute nice patterns and catch the ball. Not a ton of really hard throws. He doesnt have a 500 page playbook either DC |
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Post by daveinsarasota on Oct 30, 2010 10:07:12 GMT -6
DC Everything always comes down to basics. You run a great youth system you have developed, it allows you to teach great basics & have an answer to any situation. Where these other guys continually get in trouble is trying to get around the basics. You know I run a youth Spread Offense, we could talk routes vs coverages all day, but protection scheme's & blocking technique are more important. One question has been popping up lately, do I get all the best players or do I make my players the best? Pasco Paul(my Oline coach) & I have been tossing this one around. I look at players on other teams & see just as much talent as we have, but either they are playing the wrong position or just not "coached up". Saying all this I still realize I am not Vince Lombardi or Nick Saban. Yet as I look around the country checking on what teams I will see, consistently I see the same coaches winning. I read your posts & tend to agree with you about 95% of the time. You have found a way to make this available to everyone, & for that I thank you! Joe Interesting when I looked into the spread a little and kind of payed a ton of attention to Mike Leach, his offense is really pretty simple stuff. Handful of really well executed integrated plays. All curl, some shallow concept, Smash concept, maybe Y stick etc But man they execute nice patterns and catch the ball. Not a ton of really hard throws. He doesnt have a 500 page playbook either DC I will chime in here...Mike Leach is one of the reasons that I toy around with Spread on paper...although I have not put a serious effort into applying it. When you look at the Texas Tech Playbook...it really is a series of well integrated, simple, but perfectly executed plays. I will never forget Mike Leach reaching into his pocket, rifling through papers from a notepad...no big fancy playcard... |
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Post by blb on Oct 30, 2010 11:45:07 GMT -6
If you had heard or read anything from those and other Packers of the Lombardi era, you would know the answer. I have...I dub them cliched responses coach. Well, I guess if you refuse to accept either the facts I presented or the testimony of the men that played for him, you're mind is pretty closed on the subject. Has nothing to do with "romanticizing" anything, merely disproving your statement that Lombardi "didn't do much with average players." |
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 30, 2010 11:58:14 GMT -6
I just have to wonder if you have talked to the hc of your team about this. My best coaching decision was to get some AC's, also daddy coach's, with experience I could draw from. I don't know your HC but i favor a direct approach if you have not tried talking to him I don't see where i would hurt About 2- vs. 3-pt. stance? Trouble is, our hands are tied, because it's the one who I incorrectly IDd above as president -- actually he's director of football operations -- was the one who told us at the beginning to teach them 3-pt. And now that we're going to practice on a hard court for the rest of the season is no time to be working on their blocking & tackling form! I talk plenty to our HC. He gave me a ride home from the game today. He tells our players to hit lower, but we don't have any time to practice it now. I don't see any point at this time discussing something we can't do anything about. Maybe in the off-season we can discuss whether the organiz'n should continue with this half a bridge. |
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Post by daveinsarasota on Oct 30, 2010 13:12:42 GMT -6
If you had heard or read anything from those and other Packers of the Lombardi era, you would know the answer. I have...I dub them cliched responses coach. Lombardi is also the guy who had Nitschke pound on a concussed Bill Curry's head for an hour to see if Curry was tough enough to make the team... He has Great credentials, but lets not over-romanticize the past...and keep in mind the point was for youth coaches to recognize that Lombardi/saban et all..are not the end all be all for coaches. No offense coach...but you will never win an argument, if you are implying that Lombardi was not as great of a coach as he most obviously was. Medicine today is far more advanced than it was in the 60s. You can't apply today's standards, as it pertains to concussions, to the 60s. It's just not fair. The Packers were clearly the embodiment of Vince Lombardi...there is no one in their right mind, who would argue otherwise. Just out of curiosity...and not to be disrespectful...I would really like to hear who your idea of the great coaches were/are. Especially since Vince Lombardi seems to be one that you would not consider. Sorry to veer off the topic of the original post. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 30, 2010 16:21:08 GMT -6
I have...I dub them cliched responses coach. Well, I guess if you refuse to accept either the facts I presented or the testimony of the men that played for him, you're mind is pretty closed on the subject. Has nothing to do with "romanticizing" anything, merely disproving your statement that Lombardi "didn't do much with average players." BLB--I listed 10 NFL hall of fame players on those Packer teams. How does his success prove that he did much with "average" players..given that 10 of his players over a relatively short time span are in the HOF? Your contention is that these were average players..and he turned them into hall of famers? Adderley--was all Philly in football, basketball and baseball in H.S. At MSU he In 1959, Adderley led the team in rushing yards and pass receptions, led the team in pass receptions in 1960 was the co-captain of the team in his senior yearhe made the All-Big Ten Conference team and played in the East-West Shrine Game, the Coaches' All-American, and the College All-Star games. was picked for the All-Michigan State University team in 1970. Davis--Legend down here in Louisana. Had he gone to LSU as opposed to Grambling..... He wouldn't have been a 15th round pick. (Lsu didn't have a black scholarship football player until 1973) Hornung---Heisman. Henry Jordan-- placed 2nd in the NCAA's in Wrestling in 1957 to go along with his football career at UV. Jimmy Taylor--another Louisiana Legend. Collegiate all america, amazing high school athlete at Baton Rouge High School Not knocking Lombardi--I am just saying that he didn't have a team with MMP's (youth ball..remember that's what we were talking about) dave--I clearly said he had great credentials and great success. My point was simply that guys with tremendous success at the youth level should not feel deference to Lombardi or Saban.. |
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Post by phantom on Oct 30, 2010 23:42:07 GMT -6
Let's not make this a referendum on Lombardi or Saban. At any level you have to have players.
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Post by mhcoach on Nov 1, 2010 7:05:47 GMT -6
Phantom
I never thought the small blurb would overcome the thread. Sorry.
Bob
It's one thing to tell a player to stay low, it's another to coach it. I understand your limitations, yet there are drills you can do on the hard court. Work hard on first step drills & try to get lots of reps.
Joe
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 1, 2010 9:45:12 GMT -6
It's one thing to tell a player to stay low, it's another to coach it. I understand your limitations, yet there are drills you can do on the hard court. Work hard on first step drills & try to get lots of reps. Specifically how do those drills work? Of course I'd need Dave's permission to do them, unless he's late and I'm in charge. |
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Post by mhcoach on Nov 1, 2010 10:02:37 GMT -6
Bob
First step drill, (question do you teach gunslinger or not?) our OLine will work their first step, let's say Zone right. We look for a 6" step, back flat not raising up at all. We will do this numerous times till we progress to the second step. Each has it's own coaching points.
Usually we work this order.
1) Zone Right
2) Zone Left
3) Stretch Right
4) Stretch Left
5) Trap Right
6) Trap Left
7) Pull Right
8) Pull Left
9) Slide Right
10) Slide Left
Pasco Paul works first step everyday it is a warm up for the Oline it takes him less then 5 minutes to work that progression. The next drill you can use is "Dog Fight" it is all about leverage. You have players pair up the man desiginated O gets into a good fit position on the defender. On the first whistle(or go) he drives the defender, on the second whistle(or go) the Defender becomes the Olineman drops his hips snaps his hands under & drives. We usually let each man drive twice(the drill will break down if you try more reps).
Hope that helps.
Joe
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 1, 2010 12:50:39 GMT -6
First step drill, (question do you teach gunslinger or not?) We don't. That's similar to the way I teach it. In lieu of the chute that the club lost to a maintenance crew, to keep the blockers from rising I have another player hold out an arm as a low bridge. Heh. We keep it a lot simpler than that, blocking either left or right. The only rule Dave let me give them, after repeated questioning, boiled down to MOMA. If they're man on, then I just try to have them get on the POA side. Thanks. That looks like it could be fun for them too. Is it safe on a gym floor, no mats? |
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Post by mhcoach on Nov 2, 2010 5:56:40 GMT -6
Bob
Very safe. The drill isn't intended to go to the ground & a key coaching point is no twisting from the Olineman. The Dlineman must offer resistance & still let the Olineman drive him. We usually do this with no pads it's more about fit & form then anything else. First Step is important because it is the only way I know to keep the lineman low & yet is easy & quick. You can taylor it to what you do, I was only telling you what we do. When I coached in HS we used Gunslinger, I don't in youth ball. The difference is how the hands get set for the punch. You can also use punch drill, we place the Olineman on his knees, sitting on his heels, hands at his side. The defender gets in tight(you can use a pop dummy here) on the go the lineman punches his hands while you check for good form.
Joe
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