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Post by jg08mhs on Aug 20, 2010 8:32:23 GMT -6
Coaches, I would like your opinion on something. First, let me review what I mean by positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, and punishment, the way they were defined to me in psychology classes.
1. Positive reinforcement: increases the probability of a behavior by pairing it with something good. 2. Negative reinforcement: increases the probability of a behavior by pairing it with the removal/avoidance of something bad. 3. Punishments: Reduces the probability of a behavior by pairing it with something bad.
I'm a new coach, so I am still trying to define my style of coaching. Personally, I am not a fan of using punishment when it comes to teaching techniques, assignments, etc. An example of this would be making a kid bear crawl because he had a brain fart and pulled the wrong way (if he didn't know what to do because he wasn't paying attention, then bear crawling doesn't sound all that bad anymore). An example of negative reinforcement would be yelling at a kid for a blown assignment (if he does it correctly the next time, then he will avoid being yelled at). An example of positive reinforcement would be telling a player "Good job!" when he does what he is supposed to.
Now, what I would like some opinions on. Looking at what I do in practice, I think that I have been relying too much on negative reinforcement, and I have been finding it difficult to work positive reinforcement in there enough. Does anybody else have this problem? Are there any unique ways anyone incorporates positive reinforcement? Has anybody found relying more on negative reinforcement to be an effective method? These are just a few questions that come to mind.
Sorry for making this so long, but I would really appreciate any thoughts on this.
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Post by brophy on Aug 20, 2010 9:20:47 GMT -6
Negativity is easy, and it comes natural. You have to beat it for at least a 3 to 1 favor (positive to negative), so the odds are stacked against it. You're gonna have to cram and find creative ways to deliver a positive message. Positive = quantityDoesn't have to be detailed or warranted, just lather it / heap it on as much as possible ("great effort", "we look good", "it is a good day to get better", "bobby, you got better on that rep right there", "how is it gonna feel when we beat City High?") Develop a 'performance' relationship with your playersNegative = quality If you are going to make an unpositive comment make it specific and direct it to the problem (which spells out the solution). (instead of saying, " you dumbshit! you didn't reroute!" try " remember, we need to control the stem of the receiver with the heavy hand, use the hands not the feet" addressing the same action, but one delivered something of substance) Don't reinforce unpositive images. It should never really be personal either. Address the behavior (lack of effort) not the person exhibiting the behavior (" you're better than that, Trey! That effort will get us beat against North High. Lets amp up the intensity and make the plays / be the star you are") great ways to destroy your playersIts all about perspective / how we frame the experience. Coaching/instruction is something we do FOR the players, not TO the players. Be aware that your message isn't just what you SAY. It is the entire package, how you act, the energy you delivery, your body language, and how you interact outside of football
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flingt
Junior Member
"We don't care how big or strong our opponents are as long as they're human.?
Posts: 311
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Post by flingt on Aug 20, 2010 10:42:37 GMT -6
Brophy's dead on but let me add that Punishment should be paired with accountability, i.e., pushups of dropped balls. If you're talking punishment for, say, losing your cool, then that is a case by case basis.
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Post by superpower on Aug 20, 2010 13:56:48 GMT -6
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Post by coachks on Aug 20, 2010 15:09:00 GMT -6
Lots of factors at play here. Chiefly, what caused the error? How many errors are effort/attitude/concentration effors vs how many errors are legit 'learning process" errors.
There also comes a point of diminishing returns, no matter what method you use. At some point kids become immune to yelling/"punshiment", but they also become immune to the "cheerleader" style compliments.
And, of course, accountability. At some point, the player in question AND HIS TEAMMATES have to see the player being held accountable (usually mainfested in playing time).
Another factor would be "tempo" or "intensity" so to speak. How many times can you slow down a drill to "coach" before you hit a lull and the rest of the kids lose interest?
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Post by mattyg2787 on Aug 20, 2010 16:37:35 GMT -6
This is always gonna vary between coaches but here's my view
Negative- I only ever use negative at training. And even then, its never "johnny, your a useless f*#& " its always either constructive criticism or punishments (personal favourite for linemen is burns, have them drop into 2 point stance but so their thighs are parallel to ground and stay there for a minute) use a position relevant punishment. Linemen don't get anything out of doing laps, get them doing push ups, sprints or burns. This said, I try to never end training on a bad note (even if its as little as saying good training to every single player. Positive - at training, don't let guys get away with mistakes, let them know if they make mistakes. However, come game day always be positive. If your receiver misses a catch,chances are they will be harder on themselves then you could ever be. I run with the attitude of "next play". Obviously if said receiver misses most his catches on a game, you need to do something at training about it but don't destroy their confidence, if anything, try and get their confidence back up.
Hope this helps
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hawke
Sophomore Member
Posts: 209
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Post by hawke on Aug 20, 2010 16:44:23 GMT -6
Brophy, as usual, is correct.; but let me say this as far as my experience is concerned. The most important thing is to know the young man you are speaking to. A mistake is a mistake but how do you handle it? Some need to be talked to; some need to be screamed at; others need you to put your arm around their shoulder and whisper sweet nothings in their ear; others need to be cursed at like a junk yard dog. I have 3 kids right now that are at the same position (corner) and 1 never played football before (came here from Puerto Rico but has great talent); the next is a "book smart" kid but not street smart; the 3rd with great talent also is a wise ass. They all make mistakes but each one is treated differently. The first, I never yell, only explain. The second, I put my arm around him and whisper what a dumb"a__" he is for such a juvenile error. The third, well he hears me say my version of the rosary and how we are going to the hospital on 3 l3gs to get my foot out of you know where if he doesn't wise up. Who is going to get the position? I have no idea until I grade the pre-season scrimmages and feel who is the best to be their. You are not perfect, neither are the kids but you have to treat them according to their understanding , not yours.
Hawke
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Post by coachwood on Aug 20, 2010 23:52:09 GMT -6
Coaches, I would like your opinion on something. First, let me review what I mean by positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, and punishment, the way they were defined to me in psychology classes. 1. Positive reinforcement: increases the probability of a behavior by pairing it with something good. 2. Negative reinforcement: increases the probability of a behavior by pairing it with the removal/avoidance of something bad. 3. Punishments: Reduces the probability of a behavior by pairing it with something bad. I'm a new coach, so I am still trying to define my style of coaching. Personally, I am not a fan of using punishment when it comes to teaching techniques, assignments, etc. An example of this would be making a kid bear crawl because he had a brain fart and pulled the wrong way (if he didn't know what to do because he wasn't paying attention, then bear crawling doesn't sound all that bad anymore). An example of negative reinforcement would be yelling at a kid for a blown assignment (if he does it correctly the next time, then he will avoid being yelled at). An example of positive reinforcement would be telling a player "Good job!" when he does what he is supposed to. Now, what I would like some opinions on. Looking at what I do in practice, I think that I have been relying too much on negative reinforcement, and I have been finding it difficult to work positive reinforcement in there enough. Does anybody else have this problem? Are there any unique ways anyone incorporates positive reinforcement? Has anybody found relying more on negative reinforcement to be an effective method? These are just a few questions that come to mind. Sorry for making this so long, but I would really appreciate any thoughts on this. Hammer, Hammer Hammer, Hug. Hammer, Hammer, Hammer, Hug. ..... After teaching BD students for almost 20 years, a few things have become clear. Fair does not mean equal. Trust your gut. When dealing with parents, be honest. When teaching players.... teach them. Scream for motivation only. Love em. Hug em. Be honest. Never disrespect. The rest will take care of itself.
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Post by jg08mhs on Aug 21, 2010 2:26:31 GMT -6
Thanks coaches. Today at practice, I made a conscious effort to use more positive reinforcement and limit the negative, and I think it really made a difference. I was watching our center, who we are always getting on about stepping as he snaps the ball. I noticed he was still false stepping, hopping, not stepping at all, basically everything we don't want him to do. I thought about getting on him, but instead just held back and watched his feet every time. Finally, he did what he was supposed to, and I immediately told him about how good a job he did stepping with the snap. And wouldn't you know, he stepped properly on every play thereafter! It just goes to show that butt-chewing is not always the best answer.
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Post by coachbuck on Aug 21, 2010 3:33:30 GMT -6
My idea of being negative is different than yours. If you are yelling at a kid for being lazy, slow to the ball, just generally giving the player a hard time, that is negative. If the player is using bad technique and you correct it, its not being negative its coaching. JMO
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Post by airtrafficcontrol on Aug 21, 2010 4:39:16 GMT -6
To expand on Brophy's ideas on it,it is important to remember if you have to be negative then attack the performance,not the the performer.
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Post by blb on Aug 21, 2010 5:53:30 GMT -6
Be positive but demanding - "No way we can fail because we're too good, unless we beat ourselves."
Kids know they will get azz chewed for lack of effort and mental mistakes. Will get corrected (coached) on fundamental or technique flaws. Will get high praise for good plays, especially second-effort ones.
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Post by champ93 on Aug 22, 2010 15:18:36 GMT -6
Positive reinforcement is adding anything the subject desires to increase the frequency of a behavior. Compliments, helmet stickers, a pat on the back, etc as fore-mentioned.
Negative reinforcement removes something the subject considers adversive to increase the frequency of a behavior. Stating we will run 40 40s at the end of practice, but will we can reduce it by 5 for every perfect play run against air would be an example. Taking an aspirin to eliminate a headache increases the likelihood of taking an aspirin again the next time you have a headache, assuming it worked the first time would be another example.
Punishment is giving the subject an adversive stimulus to reduce the frequency of a behavior. Up/downs for jumping off-sides would be an example.
As was mentioned by others, it is important to know your kids as some kids adversive may be another kids desired stimulus.
From the psych books I've read and teach from, the jury is still out on the effectiveness of punishment. Generally speaking, it is most effective if it's immediate and strong enough while combined with teaching what should be done using positive reinforcement. So making your team run on Monday for a crap performance Friday is not effective as the association of the act and the punishment are too far apart in time and space. Pulling a kid out of a game because he's getting beat every play doesn't teach him to be a better player unless you take the time to show him how to do it and praise him for doing it right/put him back in the game. Of course this takes time and effort on our part.
Please keep in mind what I wrote is a lot of psycho-babble, but it merits some conscious thought when dealing with people.
Personally, I wish I could ALWAYS follow the strategies above, but I don't, and I should know better.
The easiest and simplest way to sum up what I wrote would be "you can catch more flies with honey than with sh!t."
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Post by coachcb on Aug 22, 2010 18:33:35 GMT -6
Here's the way I do things, it's worked well for me;
1. Lots of SPECIFIC positive reinforcement. When they do something right, I make sure I let them know EXACTLY what they did right and praise them for it. "That was a great first step; nice strike and drive." I am a very, very upbeat and loud in this aspect. I use a fair amount of GENERAL positive reinforcement; "Nice hustle, great job." etc I stay away from too much of this because it just gets redundant; in one ear and out the other.
2. When it comes to correcting a mistake, I still use SPECIFIC positive reinforcement as much as possible. When they screw up, I tell them what they did right within the progression; "That was a great job of popping your hips on that tackle and working hard, but WE need to work on grabbing a hold of jersey." I use the term WE a lot because they understand that I'm not laying it all on them; that the two of us are going to work on it. I used to use a lot of GENERAL positive reinforcement ("Nice hustle, but let's work on _____") The kids get tired of this quickly; they just start focusing on what they did wrong in terms of skill because you're not telling them what they did right.
3. The only time I used negative reinforcement is when a kid is being lazy or disrespectful. As far as being lazy goes, I always make sure that they know what they're doing and that they're just playing slow. It's taken me a while to pay attention to the entire skill progression to see if they know what they're doing. A lot of times, they're playing slow because they don't know what they're doing or haven't gotten enough reps at the skill to play fast. I generally give the kids the benefit of the doubt here. If they're being rude, it's self-explanatory. However, I never raise my voice with the kids in these situations; I keep my tone neutral and calm. I lay out the consequences of their actions in very simple terms; this crap keeps up, you won't play, period. I used to come down on them hard because I figured that I was providing enough positive reinforcement but I realized that I was really coming across as Jekyll and Hyde and overly emotional. The kids know I'm severely p-ssed off when my tone becomes flat. I was so angry with a kid last year that I sent him to the locker room, in the middle of a game, to change into his street clothes because of his attitude towards his teammates. But, I never raised my voice once, I told him to get his gear off, that he wasn't playing and that I didn't want to hear another word out of his mouth.
4. I don't use punishment; there's just simple consequences for actions. If you're being a cancer or being lazy, you don't play. It's not a punishment; it's the simplest consequence of one's actions. You want to play the game, you need to work hard, be respectful, and pay attention. If not, then you haven't earned the right to play. If it's something very serious, they're gone, kicked off of the team. I NEVER punish the kids (especially the whole team!!) for skill mistakes they make for several reasons: -Punishing the kids for something one or two kid do doesn't build teamwork; it sets the stage for resentment for them and for you as a coach. -It's your job to coach them and teach them the game; if they're screwing up a skill consistently, you have to fix it. -It wastes practice time; I used to make the OL and DL do up-downs or go for runs for jumping off sides and other stuff. I realized in a hurry that I was p-ssing away about 20 minutes of practice time a week by doing so. Plus, again, it's my job to coach them; instead of wasting those minutes of practice time punishing them, we could have been working on getting it right.
I know a lot of coaches that punish kids for making a mess on the bus or in the locker room. The solution to me is very simple; MAKE THEM CLEAN IT. I won't let kids get off of the bus until I go through it and make sure that it's spotless. If the locker room is trashed, they'll stay after practice and clean it top to bottom including the shower and the toilets. I'll get cleaning gear from the janitor and they'll go to work. Several years ago, I had to meet with my AD right after practice, came back to the locker room, the kids were gone and it was trashed. I picked it up because I didn't want to leave a mess, but you can bet your a-- those kids cleaned it the next day. They swept, mopped, wiped down the walls and mirrors, cleaned out the toilets, etc.. It never, ever happened again.
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Post by dubber on Aug 23, 2010 11:09:09 GMT -6
It's a case by case thing.
Overall, you want to be positive........I mean, there is a goal WE ALL are working toward, and my correcting of you MUST be understood as necessary for achieving that goal.
Now, here is a generalized approach I take:
The young guys/non-varsity guys get a TON of positive comments from me.........I'll even overlook some mistakes to accent the positive. This is really why I like JV games........the win/loss doesn't matter as much as the kids "getting it", which makes more pure (like practice).
Varsity players are CONSTANTLY corrected, but reassured.
CORE guys need to be perfect.......and until then, they get nothing.
Our two senior OL guys (4 year players, all conference, team captains)............they are expected to take the pressure we as a staff apply.
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