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Post by coachzola on Jul 29, 2010 20:38:57 GMT -6
Hey Coaches,
Was wondering if anyone has a basis for a 300 yard shuttle run conditioning test by position? Or if not, what do you use for a conditioning test the first day of camp?
Can't believe 3 more weeks til camp starts..
Coach T
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 29, 2010 21:29:23 GMT -6
What is the purpose of your conditioning test?
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 30, 2010 0:40:24 GMT -6
300 shuttle is a great way to fry someone's hamstring, imo. Not really worth it considering how non-practical it is and fairly arbitrary most 'conditioning' tests are. Conditioning tests aren't really going to tell you someone you don't already know: Todd has been coming all summer and is in shape and Phil hasn't and isn't. Running 300yds because it's painful won't change that reality.
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Post by blb on Jul 30, 2010 5:25:02 GMT -6
We use 40-yard dash (speed), Bench Press (upper body strength), Squat (lower body strength), and Mile Run (endurance-stamina).
Purpose of the test is accountability plus will get asked for first three by college coaches.
Mile Run is also test of commitment and mental toughness plus as a Physical Education teacher I just believe 14-18 year old kids, especially athletes, ought to be able to run a mile.
We assign points for their scores on each test and rank by position, use to help formulate initial depth chart.
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Post by redandwhite on Jul 30, 2010 6:38:34 GMT -6
I agree with the earlier posts that question "why?" As stated, we know who's been working and who hasn't - a conditioning test isn't going to reveal anything we didn't know. I can't rationalize the loss of practice time that conditioning tests would take away. The last day of our Summer Strength and Conditioning, we run an Iron Man competition, similar to blb, with 8 or 10 events, and the top 5 linemen and top 5 backs are given awards and announced at our Fall Kickoff/Parents' Meeting. This is more about recognition for the kids who have worked hard than evaluative - as stated above, we already know who's put the work in.
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Post by coachzola on Jul 30, 2010 6:43:19 GMT -6
Thanks for the advise mariner42.. It was proposed to me from one of my assistants, more for a commitment and mental toughness situation like blb said.
But I agree with reandwhite, I don't want to sacrifice practice time as well. I'm a new HC at a small school and installing a new offense and smiliar defense with different terminology.
I've be struggling with this for a few weeks..test them or focus on install during the first three days. Like most I believe, we have three days just helmets. Figured this time would be a good time to get some good install time in, but wanted to see what I have to work with as well.
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Post by Coach Klemme on Jul 30, 2010 7:44:22 GMT -6
Our staff used to do a 12 minute run on the track. Linemen had to get in 5 laps while everyone else had to get 6+. Some exceptions were made of course. Everyone had to do it a few years ago, then it switched to those with less than something like 70% attendence for camps, wt room, 7 on 7 etc. I haven't even heard if we are going to apply this for this summer. We didn't have to last year because everyone showed up for everything.
I realize that we coaches know who has and has not been getting themselves prepared, but I think one thing that the conditioning test does is show the other players who and who hasn't been working out. It reassures those who have been busting their tails by having them finish that task at hand while the others who chose to do other things stick out and it shows the team that they have some work to do if they want to help the team to their fullest ability. I don't know if I'm right, but that my 2 cents on the idea.
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drk
Freshmen Member
Posts: 21
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Post by drk on Jul 30, 2010 8:00:43 GMT -6
Isn't conditioning of any kind (drill or test) a good way to 'burn a ham' if the kids are totaly out of shape? Does that mean you don't condition?
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Post by blb on Jul 30, 2010 8:52:28 GMT -6
We don't "waste practice time" testing.
Practice starts a week from Monday, August 9. Next Friday (August 6) we have team meetings, do Mile Run, issue helmets.
Saturday morning we give out rest of gear, and finish testing.
Having an objective test also good way to explain to Mommy or Daddy why Junior isn't playing as much as they think he should: "Your son scored eighth out of nine players at his position on Physical Fitness Test. Maybe because he showed up to less than half of our Summer Conditioning workouts."
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Post by phantom on Jul 30, 2010 9:07:07 GMT -6
Thanks for the advise mariner42.. It was proposed to me from one of my assistants, more for a commitment and mental toughness situation like blb said. But I agree with reandwhite, I don't want to sacrifice practice time as well. I'm a new HC at a small school and installing a new offense and smiliar defense with different terminology. I've be struggling with this for a few weeks..test them or focus on install during the first three days. Like most I believe, we have three days just helmets. Figured this time would be a good time to get some good install time in, but wanted to see what I have to work with as well. Install. After a few practices you'll know who's in good shape and who isn't.
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 30, 2010 9:50:02 GMT -6
Isn't conditioning of any kind (drill or test) a good way to 'burn a ham' if the kids are totaly out of shape? Does that mean you don't condition? Not like traditional programs, no. We condition through repetition, which a lot of people talk about but few really do, and through our tempo in the weight room. We have maybe 5 guys who could run a sub :60s 400, but who cares? The 300 shuttle is equally non-specific, how many times will your kids have to run 60 yards five times in a play? Or 25 yards 12 times? We absolutely test our guys to track improvement, but we do stuff like 10 and 20y starts, pro agility, L drill, broad jump, etc. Practical tests.
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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 30, 2010 10:16:06 GMT -6
the only test we do early in the season is in the weightroom to establish what are %'s will be for lifts. We don't test in the mile or 300 yard run for the reasons other coaches have already mentioned. Was an assistant where the mile was timed and if you didn't run it under a certain time you couldn't play skills position. I understand the thought, but we had a 240 pounder who turned out to be a college shot putter - had quickness for a big guy but couldn't make the time. He would have been a helluva fullback.
At same school, if you didn't get a certain time you had to run extra after practice - again I understand the thought - but just led to a lot of kids quitting.
We have a +300 pounder who can stop a play in the A gap - if he had to run the mile he wouldn't come out.
We will condition with 40's and 20's and you can tell pretty quick who has been working out and who hasn't. BUT, there are also some kids who seem to always in shape whether they participate or not.
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drk
Freshmen Member
Posts: 21
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Post by drk on Jul 30, 2010 10:23:55 GMT -6
Agreed mariner42. We do condition during the first two weeks but our main drill is something I stole and adapted from basketball called the basketball mile. We run what we call a gridiron mile. It simulates a full game; run, jog back, huddle, sprint to the line, run again. The time between runs, in the huddle, varies. It is broken down into a warm-up, four quarters, and if I'm not satisfied overtime.
We will also do some position specific form running drills I got from NDSU and a circuit course the kids call bootcamp.
Kids talk about hating these but are always pushing to improve so I take that to mean they work. We try to make all our conditioning have a purpose beyond getting them in shape. If the drill is not reinforcing some aspect of the game we don't do it.
The only time we do straight up sprints, which is not often, our QB's run it on cadance. Everybody must get off on the count. We call it discipline sprints.
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Post by jml on Jul 30, 2010 10:28:56 GMT -6
We do the 300 yard shuttle test. I like it because while it is not completely football specific. It is more so than a mile run or a 12 minute run. I think football is all accelleration and deceleration and the player has to do both of those 12 times. We use 1 minute for our backs and 1:05 for our linemen as target times. For the JV we at 5 seconds.
People jump on it like it is a terrible test. Is it perfect? No, but I also think it is better than the 40. It is so rare to see a football player run 40 yard with out changing speed or direction. I think the best tests are probably the pro shuttle 5-10-5 and the 10 yard dash. The 10 yard dash has to be electronically timed for it to be accurate however.
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Post by tim914790 on Jul 30, 2010 14:44:50 GMT -6
jml
Do your kids make those times? I saw where haynesworth had 70 seconds and 73 seconds to complete his 300 yard shuttle and didnt make it. I would think you would gie younger kids more time. But I have never done that test so I dont know.
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Post by mholst40 on Jul 30, 2010 14:52:17 GMT -6
The 300-yard shuttle tests anaerobic endurance due to the limited rest period provided and the length of the running. We use the test during our summer testing to determine who meets the minimum requirements at each position and who does not. We use it for the mental toughness factor as well. The test easily separates those who are "in shape" and those who are "out of shape". Is it the best test in the world? No. Do you ever run 60 yards five times, no. But I have never seen anyone run an L drill or many other specific agility drills either.
If an athlete doesn't make his prescribed time, he must run the test everyday AFTER practice until he does make the time. There is a huge buy-in to this method. The kids who bust their butts all off-season and summer, generally make their times. Those who don't suffer. We condition using the 300-yard shuttle more than twice during any 16-week period and we do it just so the test isn't brand new when they get tested.
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Post by champ93 on Jul 30, 2010 15:46:08 GMT -6
Hey Coaches, Was wondering if anyone has a basis for a 300 yard shuttle run conditioning test by position? Or if not, what do you use for a conditioning test the first day of camp? Can't believe 3 more weeks til camp starts.. Coach T I read through here quickly (thus I may have missed it) and did not see where anyone answered the original question, so I'll give one. My son will be playing at a D3 school this year and his numbers to meet are 65 seconds for bigs, 55 seconds for others. Not sure if there special circumstances for really bigs or not. As far as the validity of this test, if the kids know to prep for it, then it's valid. Many arguments here about whether it is useful, football related, realistic, etc. I argue it's as valid as any other test we do. I have never seen a player lie on his back and press another, or squat one, or clean one. But these are simply performance tests that many of us use. The kids are aware of the standards and that they will be tested, so they prep for it. May or may not show "being in shape," but it gives the player something to prep for and the coach some way to measure it. I don't use practice time to test. It's done in the pre-season (next Tuesday & Wednesday) when I can't install anything.
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msalazar51
Junior Member
"Believing that 95% commitment is okay results in 100% failure."
Posts: 305
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Post by msalazar51 on Jul 30, 2010 18:43:17 GMT -6
So my plan to get the kids up at 3:30 AM and run them around the Gettysburg Battlefield is a bad idea? Could burn up a hammy or two? What about the speech I was planning to give at the end of the run? I was going to give a great speech about living for one another at that point! Darn, gotta try and get a refund for that flight!
Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll be serious next time, hope you had a laugh?
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creid
Sophomore Member
Posts: 148
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Post by creid on Jul 30, 2010 19:47:15 GMT -6
We use the 300 shuttle test. It is part of the summer program and as a boarding school it keeps the boarding kids accountable, the day kids are on campus to work out all summer. Our kids arrive at 10, have an afternoon practice, and testing is done that evening...it also serves as our conditioning for day 1. It has worked for us...and I have used it since I coached at a D III school that used it.
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Post by buck42 on Jul 30, 2010 20:42:14 GMT -6
So a 300 is not practical because you do not do that in a game?
Well how often in a game do you squat in the middle of the field and stand up? I have yet to see a kid to a lunge in a game either? Bench Press? Shoulder Press?
It is all woven into total body fitness.
We do an Ironman Competition the last week of camp...we schedule it so the kids have time for the legs to recover and perform.
If you want to use a 300 go for it...we do and we always will....we run a lot of sprints at the end of practice and it is not punishment it is in preparation to win in the 4th quarter. I want to run more 100s this year....I would hate for one of my guys not be able to return a fumble or INT for a 100yd TD bc they are not prepared...Sure that MIGHT happen once every few years...but atleast our guys will be prepared when it happens...
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Post by fatkicker on Jul 30, 2010 20:58:06 GMT -6
What about the ol' 16 110's. Anybody do those anymore?
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jul 31, 2010 1:27:28 GMT -6
I may be wrong on this but I got the impression that Haynesworth has to run the conditioning test while others that showed up to offseason workouts do not.
Along the lines of knowing who is in shape and who isn't, does anybody administer a test like this to kids who are below a certain attendance figure for summer weights? Would it be a good idea, or does it open the door for too much mommy and daddy complaining that their son isn't being treated fairly?
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Post by champ93 on Jul 31, 2010 6:58:07 GMT -6
Along the lines of knowing who is in shape and who isn't, does anybody administer a test like this to kids who are below a certain attendance figure for summer weights? Would it be a good idea, or does it open the door for too much mommy and daddy complaining that their son isn't being treated fairly? We have make-up work for those who miss more than 10% of the workouts. They run 8 200's for each day to be made up in 38 seconds for bigs and 33 for everyone else. No one has failed the test yet. We have about 8% of our kids have some sort of make-up work. Unfortunately, most of that 8% will be doing daily make-up work for 7 days, in other words, it's the same kids missing all the time. As far as the parents thinking it's unfair--I'm more concerned about being fair to the 92% that are committed.
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Post by jml on Jul 31, 2010 10:27:10 GMT -6
I would say that 95% make those times in the 1st week of practice. We make them run it again each day until they make it. After the first week it is usually the really fat kids who don't make it. Then you can have them do a different test or make them keep doing it. jml Do your kids make those times? I saw where haynesworth had 70 seconds and 73 seconds to complete his 300 yard shuttle and didnt make it. I would think you would gie younger kids more time. But I have never done that test so I dont know.
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Post by tim914790 on Jul 31, 2010 12:00:07 GMT -6
We have done the 16 110's in the past. We gave times of 16 18 and 20 seconds, skills, LB & QB, and linemen We would have 6-8 kids run at a time so their rest period was while the other groups were running. They could miss one, but the second miss they fail the test and have to take it again until they pass it. 100% off season attendance was exempt from the conditioning test.
We usually have a 6 week summer lifting between school getting out and practice starting. Week one and 2 was a 1/2 mile warm up MWF then, agility, plyos or sprint (6/8 110s) Week 3/4 was 3/4 mile warm up 10/12 110s Week 5/6 Mile run 14/16 110s
We believe that if you can run a mile in 7,8,9 min based on position and you attend all the workouts then you are in more than enough shape to pass the conditioning test and use that as a reward.
We end up only having 4-5 kids that make every workout because of vacations and all.
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Post by buck42 on Jul 31, 2010 12:03:18 GMT -6
Because I was hired so late and didnot get it in place we did not do the conditioning test as a requirement but we will next year for varsity football players...
Those that only miss ONE summer workout will be exempt...everyone else will have to make a time to be able to practice...We will do this the week before the first "official" practice in conjuntion with our Ironman competition...
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2010 12:35:12 GMT -6
So a 300 is not practical because you do not do that in a game? Well how often in a game do you squat in the middle of the field and stand up? I have yet to see a kid to a lunge in a game either? Bench Press? Shoulder Press? The energy system used to run short sprints or lift maximal weights is the same energy system used during a typical 3-5 second football play. The problem I have with using the 300-yard shuttle or mile run or any other long-duration aerobic activity is that you are holding kids accountable for using an energy system that is not used in the game of football. Let me ask you this...if you had a 250-pound lineman who could clean his bodyweight, squat 400+, and run a legit (FAT) 5-flat 40 but couldn't make the minimum 300-yard shuttle time, would you consider that kid out of shape? I had a kid like that last year...big, tough, strong kid. Powerful, fast, explosive, and violent. Tremendous football player. However, you would need a sundial to time this kid in the mile. He was built for speed, not for comfort. And that's what it is all about. If you are going to test kids, use tests that most accurately measure their ability to demonstrate mastery of the basic skills necessary for playing football. If you really want to find out who your athletes are, look at their 20-yard shuttle, 10-yard dash, and vertical jump before you look at their 300-yard shuttle or mile run.
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Post by mholst40 on Jul 31, 2010 16:08:36 GMT -6
Comparing a mile-run with the 300-yard shuttle is an apples to oranges comparison. Mile runs involve the oxidative (aerobic) energy system while a 300-yard shuttle pushes the ATP-PCr energy system as well as the anaerobic (glycolytic) energy system. To be performed effectively, 300-yard shuttles must have a work-to-rest ratio around 1:1 or 1:2. This gives recovery time, but limits it, allowing the test to showcase the anaerboic system, which is the same one used predominantly over the course of a football game. Each play in football is driven by the ATP-PCr energy system, but over the course of a game, the glycolytic system (and even the oxidative system) provide some energy. This is why the 300-yard shuttle is a decent test.
Like I said prior, is the 300-yard shuttle the best test? No, but no one test is. I think it adequately shows who is in good football (anaerobic) shape. I know this because the kids who are usually gassed in games are those who do not perform well on this test. Those who play both ways and on special teams who can go all game, perform well on the test. So, the test allows me to identify who can do how much, how effective our off-season conditioning program was and who busted their tail to get in shape.
Running a good 300-yard shuttle doesn't mean you will be a good athlete or a great football player, but neither does putting up big numbers in the weight room or running faster agility or 40 times. These tests are all overblown, but they need to be administered so you can find out if your program is working and you have a reference point from athlete to athlete.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2010 16:45:14 GMT -6
Comparing a mile-run with the 300-yard shuttle is an apples to oranges comparison. Mile runs involve the oxidative (aerobic) energy system while a 300-yard shuttle pushes the ATP-PCr energy system as well as the anaerobic (glycolytic) energy system. To be performed effectively, 300-yard shuttles must have a work-to-rest ratio around 1:1 or 1:2. This gives recovery time, but limits it, allowing the test to showcase the anaerboic system, which is the same one used predominantly over the course of a football game. Each play in football is driven by the ATP-PCr energy system, but over the course of a game, the glycolytic system (and even the oxidative system) provide some energy. This is why the 300-yard shuttle is a decent test. Like I said prior, is the 300-yard shuttle the best test? No, but no one test is. I think it adequately shows who is in good football (anaerobic) shape. I know this because the kids who are usually gassed in games are those who do not perform well on this test. Those who play both ways and on special teams who can go all game, perform well on the test. So, the test allows me to identify who can do how much, how effective our off-season conditioning program was and who busted their tail to get in shape. Running a good 300-yard shuttle doesn't mean you will be a good athlete or a great football player, but neither does putting up big numbers in the weight room or running faster agility or 40 times. These tests are all overblown, but they need to be administered so you can find out if your program is working and you have a reference point from athlete to athlete. Unless your athletes are running the 300-yard shuttle in 10-15 seconds, you are NOT pushing the ATP-PCr system. After 10 seconds of maximal effort, the ATP-PCr system is exhausted and the glycolytic system takes over. And finally, between 30-45 seconds, the glycolytic system is expended, power output is drastically reduced, and the oxidative system takes over. What's a good 300 time? I'm hearing good times in the 60-70 second range. So, it appears to me that a kid who runs a good 300-yard shuttle is only training the most appropriate energy system for football for about 10 seconds of a 65 second event. To each his own, but that really doesn't seem a very efficient use of football practice time to me.
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Post by mholst40 on Jul 31, 2010 17:59:43 GMT -6
There is a lot of wiggle room when you start talking about exact times that energy systems work for. You could listen to different strength coaches or exercise physiologists and you could hear completely different answers. From what I have learned and/or read, the ATP-PCr system generally can be sustained for 15 seconds before turning to the next system.
Glycolysis picks up where the ATP-PCr system left off and can carry the body in all-out effort mode for up to two minutes before the body relies heavily on the oxidative system. So, in my opinion, the 300-yard shuttle trains the glycolytic system extremely well.
While each individual play in football stresses only the ATP-PCr system, the accumulation of plays over a game stresses the glycolytic system as well. This is why you can't run the 9th sprint as fast as the first if you are limiting recovery to the same work-to-rest ratio football stresses.
Times for the 300-yard shuttle all depend on how it is set up (how many times you have to turn). Most people have been hearing about Albert Haynesworth running it and having to hit 70 seconds. The Redskins use a format where they set up cones 25-yards apart and thus they have 12 turns. Each turn will lengthen the amount of time.
Our 300-yard shuttle has cones 60 yards apart, so there are only five turns. Thus, the times are better. Great times for the 300-yard shuttle are around 45 seconds. This is achieved by a rare number of individuals I have been around and they are typical WR/DB types. Normal "good" times are in the low to mid 50s even at the high school level.
Delta19, you seem to know your stuff. What do you use as a conditioning test instead?
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