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Post by coachdoug on Jul 28, 2010 0:25:48 GMT -6
After two practices doing a rather extensive dynamic warmup (nearly 15 minutes both Monday and today - I was hoping to get it down to 5-10 minutes eventually) I was pulled aside by several board members this evening and told that I am required to have our players do a series of static stretches at the beginning of each practice.
I am pulling together some research (it's not hard, there are hundreds if not thousands of articles online on the subject), but I wanted to hear from y'all. Some personal testimonials may resonate better that dry research articles with some people. So, please state whether your team does static stretches or a dynamic warmup (I don't want to be exclusionary here - I want to hear from people in both camps) and what injuries you've had. Also, please state a quick summary of your credentials (i.e. how long you've been coaching, your level of success, and your record wrt injuries, etc.).
Thanks in advance for helping me pull this info together.
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Post by FBCoachMike on Jul 28, 2010 1:02:56 GMT -6
Dynamic warmup only. Takes about 8-10 minutes. Moved to dynamic only 3 years ago. No injuries in the past three years that I can remember (except collision based injuries...nothing that our warmup/stretching routine had anything to do with). I've been coaching off and on since 1984- college, high school and youth.
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Post by coachtfry on Jul 28, 2010 3:31:41 GMT -6
I have been coaching youth football and some High School Football for 26 years. I have attended numerous coaching clinics and classes on this very topic. I used static stretches until about 3 years ago. I only use the Dynamic Warm Ups now. None of my players have sustained any injuries during the last 3 seasons. I allow 30 minutes for the Dynamic Warm Ups but would prefer to use less time. We usually run a few sprints at the end of the Dynamic Warm Up session and the sprints are included in the 30 minute time frame. I too was concerned about not having my players conduct the static stretching initially because I was afraid to change. I got over that and would never switch back. I believe the static stretches are a waste of time. Coach Jack Gregory has some good Dynamic Warm Up information on his www.gregorydoublewing.com website.
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Post by davecisar on Jul 28, 2010 4:44:11 GMT -6
Ive used only dynamic warmups for the last 14 seasons. Our dynamic period is 8 minutes long and we have yet to have any injuries that could be attributed to lack of stretching. Old school static stretching does nothing to lessen the threat of injury and is a huge time waster In my opinion. BTW our dynamic warmups are all about football movements- killing 2 birds with one stone.
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Post by mhcoach on Jul 28, 2010 5:54:36 GMT -6
Doug
Welcome back pal!
Dynamic warmup is the way to go. Static stretching is best after practice if at all. We have been using Dynamic Warmups now for over 10 years. The trainers in Florida actually kept stats on the number of pulls & strains when we changed over. We had 185 players in the program ( 3 Teams V, JV, & FR) prior to dynamic warmups (only doing static stretching we had almost 10% of the players having pulls or strains( worst being quads or hamstring). The first season we started Dynamic Warmup this number dropped to 4% & at the Varsity level it dropped to 2%. We did see a dramatic drop, it proved it's value the very first year.
Joe
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Post by coachdoug on Jul 28, 2010 11:07:54 GMT -6
Joe, I know you don't like to toot your own horn, but please list your credentials so when I show this to the powers that be they'll know this isn't coming from some uninformed yahoo. Please give me total years coaching, years at each level (youth, HS sub-var, HS varsity, etc) and how many championships you've won (which I know includes at least a couple youth (AYF) national championships. Thanks.
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Post by daveinsarasota on Jul 28, 2010 11:59:57 GMT -6
I originally posted a lengthy response....but I decided to keep it brief...
You can do a combination of static and dynamic stretching...it's not going to hurt a thing. I do this from time to time, and it takes no more time that just dynamics...
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Post by coachbrek on Jul 28, 2010 12:31:18 GMT -6
We do dynamic only, since about 2006. It takes 10 min. tops.
I was in the same boat as you I wanted to get the staff to change because of the time issue, we did cal, static, and dynamic, it took forever! It really drove me nuts.
I have been coaching since 1989 and did the static stretches because its what we did in high school and college.
I ran into a college teamate of mine at a camp one summer he had just won his first state high school championship as a head coach, we were talking about the dynamic warmups at the camp and he told me thats all they do they don't strech.
He put it to me this way, a lion does not stretch before it chases down a gazzell, And dog does not stretch before he chases a rabbit, he lays on the porch all day licking his balls and chases a rabbit if it runs across his yard.
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Post by coachcomet on Jul 28, 2010 12:42:22 GMT -6
We do dynamic only, since about 2006. It takes 10 min. tops. he lays on the porch all day licking his balls and chases a rabbit if it runs across his yard. ;D Be honest; if you could do it you would too ;D
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Post by utchuckd on Jul 28, 2010 18:07:04 GMT -6
My dog stretches all the time and he doesn't do dynamic warmups.
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Post by los on Jul 29, 2010 23:24:55 GMT -6
Heck Doug, after my 1st year or two coaching, we didn't do any warm-ups after the initial 2-3 weeks of pre-season practice and then only football specific dynamic stuff....the dynamic warm-ups were just to teach them some of the basic football movements....like sliding, backpedal, carioca,weaving around cones while changing the ball to the outside arm, stuff like that....once they knew how to do it well, we were through .....after that initial 2-3 weeks, no more warm-ups.....before practice or games......they got plenty of warming up at PE class in school and running around like rabid squirrels before practice and games....I coached youth for 13-14 seasons and at the hs level as an asst. for 4......course the hs boys did a short "dynamic only" warm-up before practice and before each half of the games but in youth ball we didn't do any, other than what I mentioned earlier......never had any injuries related to muscle pulls or things of that nature.....no cramping.....nothing.....we had some broken fingers, and at least one wrist, from getting them stepped on or hit between two helmets.....one kid fell on a rock on one of our crappy practice fields and broke an ankle....had a bunch of bumps and bruises....a few stitches..... a sprained ankle or two from someone falling on the back of their foot.....uhhh.... thats about all I can remember, but warming up wouldn't have prevented these kind of things......if warm-ups are required for some kind of insurance purposes, I guess you just have to do it.......is it necessary for pre-teens.....I don't think so.
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Post by gameface on Jul 30, 2010 17:42:53 GMT -6
Doug, I don't have all the experience as others here but we had a bad hamstring pull last year. we do dynamic and up until last year we never had an issue. we had this idiot come out and start running around with out warming up dynamic or static ( I doubt either would help this fool) and sure enough he pulled his hamstring running sweep reps on pursuit drill for the D. The idiot was me! With the dynamic we are good. I haven't had any injury's since we started them. I don't like the static stretch especially with a partner kids pushing or pulling another kid that is when they get hurt stretching to far when they are cold. It is better to do dynamic and warm up. Heck half of these kids can wrap there leg up over there head anyway!
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cougs
Freshmen Member
Posts: 19
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Post by cougs on Jul 31, 2010 10:33:09 GMT -6
We've done dynamic warmups for the last 6 years. 3 years ago we switched things up a little. We now start off practice combining EDD's and dynamic warmups for 10 minutes (8 later in the season). As noted above this allows us to work football skills and movements then go into static stretching.
We like this approach as we get our EDD's (focused on core position skills) worked while we complete our dynamic warmup session then go right into static stretching.
While a lot of people disagree with the need for static stretching we've found that parents, board members, other coaches, and even our players feel more comfortable if we take a few minutes with a static stretching session. We figure it can't hurt (other than taking a few more minutes of practice time) and even if it doesn't help prevent injuries it increases range of motion and flexibility.
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Post by coachbuck on Aug 3, 2010 3:09:26 GMT -6
Coach, I have had the same problem with old school coaches and parents about this stretching issue. We went to dynamic stretching my first year. I had a parent say that there lil johnny was gonna pull his hamstring. " I said really, does lil johnny 9yrs old, stretch before he runs on the playground to go play with his friends." We spend 10 min on dynamic. To the coach that spends a half an hour, wow that is alot of time.
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Post by coachtfry on Aug 3, 2010 6:39:50 GMT -6
I agree 30 minutes is too long. Conditioning is included in the 30 minutes. We also run some sprints after warm ups. We get it done faster as the year goes on but it still usually takes 15 to 20 minutes and includes neck stretches after we get pads. We are able to speed things up after we get their form down and the kids know what to do.
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Post by davecisar on Aug 3, 2010 12:21:37 GMT -6
We havent done any stretches or conditioning in last 14 seasons, not a single minute Saving me 30 minutes each practice gives me about 10 free practices per year- weve gone 121-17 in 4 different leagues doing it this way. Works for us
Super high tempo practices, with "football conditioning" not mindless sprints built into our normal routine.
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Post by coachbuck on Aug 5, 2010 1:58:37 GMT -6
I think of a quote when I hear people say mindless sprints. "the harder you work, the harder it is to quit. The easier it is the easier it is to quit." If you run sprints it does not take a half an hour. We do conditioning at the end of practice and it takes us about 7minutes. In my view pushing a player past his limit and him digging down deep helps a player to develop "heart" the no quit attitude. I know you have been successful at your way but I also have been very successful. I just think its a little back handed to call them mindless sprints. I think just the opposite. It also is a sense of accomplishment in the players when they can run our conditioning program and not be tired. Our main stay is the 6 1/2. that is sideline to sideline 10seconds there 10 second rest. Do this for 6 1/2 minutes. 20 sprints very little time wasted. Works for us.
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Post by daveinsarasota on Aug 5, 2010 8:38:15 GMT -6
I think of a quote when I hear people say mindless sprints. "the harder you work, the harder it is to quit. The easier it is the easier it is to quit." If you run sprints it does not take a half an hour. We do conditioning at the end of practice and it takes us about 7minutes. In my view pushing a player past his limit and him digging down deep helps a player to develop "heart" the no quit attitude. I know you have been successful at your way but I also have been very successful. I just think its a little back handed to call them mindless sprints. I think just the opposite. It also is a sense of accomplishment in the players when they can run our conditioning program and not be tired. Our main stay is the 6 1/2. that is sideline to sideline 10seconds there 10 second rest. Do this for 6 1/2 minutes. 20 sprints very little time wasted. Works for us. I understand why coaches run sprints...but I choose not to do it. The reason I do not have them run sprints at the end, is because I know what it is like from my playing days, when you are half way through practice, and you are wondering how many sprints you are going to have to run. I would bet my bottom dollar that if you dog those guys out with sprints at the end of every practice...they are thinking about it during valuable practice time, when you are trying to teach them things, that they need to absorb. We condition through practice...not after. We need them sharp and focused, not worrying about sprints. I borrow my philosophy from JT Curtis, who is the 2nd winningest high school coach of all time with a career record of 482-50-6 entering his 41st season in 2010. His teams have won a state record 23 state championships. Not a bad guy to take advice from. I have done so since 2006 and it works.
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 5, 2010 20:22:13 GMT -6
Regarding sprints or any other "wind"/conditioning program: Have any of you found endurance to be a factor at all in youth football games?
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Post by coachbuck on Aug 6, 2010 0:44:44 GMT -6
I totally get not conditioning. To each there own. There are many ways to win a game. Yes I have seen kids not perform in game because of conditioning. I also understand kids worrying about wind sprints but 80% of our players are down for this. I'm also talking bout 789th grades. Lil guys I am much easier.
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Post by mhcoach on Aug 6, 2010 5:45:35 GMT -6
Coaches
HS football & 6 days a week conditioning is a large part of making a team. Youth Football & 2-3 days a week how much conditioning really can you do. We (like DC often talks about) condition with football related drills. Things like pursuit angles & signal drills take the place of sprints. IMHO we get our teams in football shape. Again that's just 1 man's oppinnion.
Joe
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 6, 2010 20:48:43 GMT -6
HS football & 6 days a week conditioning is a large part of making a team. Youth Football & 2-3 days a week how much conditioning really can you do. You could assign homework on that. Does homework ever work for that, or developing any individual skill?
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 6, 2010 21:12:05 GMT -6
I think of a quote when I hear people say mindless sprints. "the harder you work, the harder it is to quit. The easier it is the easier it is to quit." If you run sprints it does not take a half an hour. We do conditioning at the end of practice and it takes us about 7minutes. In my view pushing a player past his limit and him digging down deep helps a player to develop "heart" the no quit attitude. I know you have been successful at your way but I also have been very successful. I just think its a little back handed to call them mindless sprints. I think just the opposite. It also is a sense of accomplishment in the players when they can run our conditioning program and not be tired. Our main stay is the 6 1/2. that is sideline to sideline 10seconds there 10 second rest. Do this for 6 1/2 minutes. 20 sprints very little time wasted. Works for us. I understand why coaches run sprints...but I choose not to do it. The reason I do not have them run sprints at the end, is because I know what it is like from my playing days, when you are half way through practice, and you are wondering how many sprints you are going to have to run. I would bet my bottom dollar that if you dog those guys out with sprints at the end of every practice...they are thinking about it during valuable practice time, when you are trying to teach them things, that they need to absorb. We condition through practice...not after. We need them sharp and focused, not worrying about sprints. I borrow my philosophy from JT Curtis, who is the 2nd winningest high school coach of all time with a career record of 482-50-6 entering his 41st season in 2010. His teams have won a state record 23 state championships. Not a bad guy to take advice from. I have done so since 2006 and it works. Jt's players don't need conditioning. Jt's players could beat chuck norris.
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Post by vince148 on Aug 31, 2011 19:52:03 GMT -6
Can someone point me in the direction of some good research on this as I've cut our warmups to about 10 minutes and I'm starting to get a little flack?
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Post by Coach JR on Sept 1, 2011 7:56:57 GMT -6
Ive used only dynamic warmups for the last 14 seasons. Our dynamic period is 8 minutes long and we have yet to have any injuries that could be attributed to lack of stretching. Old school static stretching does nothing to lessen the threat of injury and is a huge time waster In my opinion. BTW our dynamic warmups are all about football movements- killing 2 birds with one stone. A buddy of mine who is heavily involved in HS Girls Softball says he's seen research indicating that the risk of injury can be higher in younger players that do static stretching. I have not seen it though. He said it's an increased risk of strains on ligaments.
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Post by jrk5150 on Sept 1, 2011 8:00:12 GMT -6
Can someone point me in the direction of some good research on this as I've cut our warmups to about 10 minutes and I'm starting to get a little flack? I would recommend you reach out to Jack Gregory - dscreationsgregorydouble.homestead.com/index.htmlHe's done a lot of research and work on youth/adolescent physiology and how that applies to warming up and performance. He's got a bunch of alphabet stuff to - degrees and certifications. What he'll be able to give you is a lot of references and technical speak that will likely cause whoever is giving you flack's head to explode. It's hard to argue with a lot of technical words and citations that you don't understand that says you're dead wrong. If you're not going to be able to convince someone with anecdotes and common sense, baffle them with the buzzwords, LOL.
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Post by vince148 on Sept 1, 2011 12:02:11 GMT -6
Can someone point me in the direction of some good research on this as I've cut our warmups to about 10 minutes and I'm starting to get a little flack? I would recommend you reach out to Jack Gregory - dscreationsgregorydouble.homestead.com/index.htmlHe's done a lot of research and work on youth/adolescent physiology and how that applies to warming up and performance. He's got a bunch of alphabet stuff to - degrees and certifications. What he'll be able to give you is a lot of references and technical speak that will likely cause whoever is giving you flack's head to explode. It's hard to argue with a lot of technical words and citations that you don't understand that says you're dead wrong. If you're not going to be able to convince someone with anecdotes and common sense, baffle them with the buzzwords, LOL. Thanks. I can find a lot of articles about it, but I'm looking for the actual research references.
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Post by davecisar on Sept 1, 2011 15:41:15 GMT -6
I think of a quote when I hear people say mindless sprints. "the harder you work, the harder it is to quit. The easier it is the easier it is to quit." If you run sprints it does not take a half an hour. We do conditioning at the end of practice and it takes us about 7minutes. In my view pushing a player past his limit and him digging down deep helps a player to develop "heart" the no quit attitude. I know you have been successful at your way but I also have been very successful. I just think its a little back handed to call them mindless sprints. I think just the opposite. It also is a sense of accomplishment in the players when they can run our conditioning program and not be tired. Our main stay is the 6 1/2. that is sideline to sideline 10seconds there 10 second rest. Do this for 6 1/2 minutes. 20 sprints very little time wasted. Works for us. Not 30 minutes of conditioing- my post lumped conditioning and stretching together which often times together equal 30 minutes Ive had just 2 drops on my last 5 teams and we dont do TRADITIONAL conditioning. However we DO GET a minumum of 50 20s in most practices. We rotate at full speed pretty much every rep on team offense and defense from a sideline 20 yards away. We are no-huddle rapid pace and incorporating conditioning within the contxt of doing football stuff made sense for us. Low drop rates, lots of running, rapid pace, no huddle seems like a good mix and has worked very well for us.
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Post by coachdoug on Sept 1, 2011 16:41:22 GMT -6
When I went thru this, I simply did Google searches on "dynamic stretching" "dynamic stretching vs. static stretching" "study dynamic stetching athletic performance" "study static stretching athletic performance" and so on. I found hundreds of articles and studies. Of course, it didn't help me much. I was accused of just pulling stuff off the Internet (like somehow finding a scientific study on the Internet somehow makes it less reliable). And there was some guy who had NFL experience from the 90s telling the board that I was wrong, and they went with the belief that I couldn't possibly know more about anything than someone who had walked on the hallowed land of an NFL field. Sheesh ....
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Post by jrk5150 on Sept 1, 2011 18:58:18 GMT -6
I would recommend you reach out to Jack Gregory - dscreationsgregorydouble.homestead.com/index.htmlHe's done a lot of research and work on youth/adolescent physiology and how that applies to warming up and performance. He's got a bunch of alphabet stuff to - degrees and certifications. What he'll be able to give you is a lot of references and technical speak that will likely cause whoever is giving you flack's head to explode. It's hard to argue with a lot of technical words and citations that you don't understand that says you're dead wrong. If you're not going to be able to convince someone with anecdotes and common sense, baffle them with the buzzwords, LOL. Thanks. I can find a lot of articles about it, but I'm looking for the actual research references. That's why I recommended you reach out to him directly. He HAS done the research, he has the citations. I've seen him post with all kinds of cites on this topic. To me it's just common sense - 2 years into coaching 7-8 year old kids, I asked the HC - you ever see a kid with a pulled muscle? He said no. I said then why we doing this? He said you're right, and haven't done them since. We started doing dynamics just to develop a routine for the kids to get their heads into practice. Our kids are running all over the place in the 10-15 minutes before practice, they show up warmed up. Now we do them for flexibility, coordination and strength.
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