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Post by airman on Jul 30, 2010 12:58:39 GMT -6
i think hazing is a waste of time to be honest. it is much better to assign veterans a rookie to mentor in my mind.
I think general patton said it best
it is the duty of sr officers to insure the welfare of jr officers. it is the duty of jr officers to insure the welfare of non commissioned officers. it is the duty of the nco's to insure the welfare of the enlisted.
in the USMC I remember as a butter bar platoon officer I ate last, I showered last. the enlisted ate first, the ncos second and me last
as in the bible he who is greatest among you must be your servant. meaning those who are powerful have a duty to serve those who are not so powerful
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2010 7:10:41 GMT -6
If you think that having to carry some older guy's shoulder pads or being taped to the goalpost or being forced to pay for a $10,000+ dinner builds camaraderie, you are a meathead. That kind of crap has NOTHING to do with winning and doesn't build a strong locker room.
What "lessons" are learned by the hazed player? How does subjecting yourself to humiliation, however minor, make you a better football player, teammate, or human being? How does it contribute to winning? Hazing doesn't do ANY of those things.
The gist of the argument in favor of minor hazing is that it is a "tradition" or a "right of passage" or "everyone has to endure it". Well...there are LOTS of things that we as a society USED to feel were acceptable that aren't anymore. I believe that hazing, in whatever form, meets that criteria.
I also take issue with the programs that make the freshmen carry the gear to and from practice every day. In every program I have been in, the whole team took turns with gear. No one gets a free lunch...everyone pulls their own weight equally. There are no special exemptions for players who simply had the good fortune to be born before other players.
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Post by lionhart on Jul 31, 2010 7:30:37 GMT -6
19delta.... everyone does take turns carrying the gear. its YOUR turn when youre a freshman. then the next 3 years its someone elses turn.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2010 8:13:25 GMT -6
19delta.... everyone does take turns carrying the gear. its YOUR turn when youre a freshman. then the next 3 years its someone elses turn. Again...what is the purpose? How does making the freshmen carry the bags and gear every day contribute to winning? What "lesson" are you trying to impart on the freshmen? What about some sophomore, junior, or senior who goes out for football for the first time? Why doesn't he have to carry bags? How come he doesn't have to "pay his dues"?
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Post by blb on Jul 31, 2010 8:39:20 GMT -6
Impossible to educationally justify bullying or hazing. Hazing is against the law in our state.
In our program Freshmen take out and in their equipment, JVs likewise theirs; and on Varsity, Linemen are responsible for bags, Backs line spacers and balls, Receivers scrimmage vests and cones that we use.
Juniors probably do most of above but if it doesn't get done whole group does extra work post-practice.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2010 9:15:37 GMT -6
Impossible to educationally justify bullying or hazing. Hazing is against the law in our state. In our program Freshmen take out and in their equipment, JVs likewise theirs; and on Varsity, Linemen are responsible for bags, Backs line spacers and balls, Receivers scrimmage vests and cones that we use. Juniors probably do most of above but if it doesn't get done whole group does extra work post-practice. That is outstanding.
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Post by lionhart on Jul 31, 2010 22:01:50 GMT -6
i think you are taking it a little too seriously. not every single thing involving your program necessarily "contributes to winning". how exactly does a homecoming parade contribute to winning? or a pep rally? for us... since we dont have a freshman program (budget cuts), our frosh play on our j.v squad. having them responsible for bags and coolers is just another way to have them feel "a part" of our program. we preach the importance of each player knowing his role within the team. from our all-state rb to our senior who only plays on kickoff.... all the way down to the freshman who carries the stepover on and off the bus. its really not a big deal in my opinion, and no kids have complained about it. i certainly wouldnt call it "hazing" either. "contribute to winning" is not the only thing teams should be concerned about..... when notre dame takes the field and each player taps the famous sign while exiting the lockerroom.... how does that "contribute to winning"? what "lesson" is being learned?
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2010 22:11:49 GMT -6
i think you are taking it a little too seriously. not every single thing involving your program necessarily "contributes to winning". how exactly does a homecoming parade contribute to winning? or a pep rally? for us... since we dont have a freshman program (budget cuts), our frosh play on our j.v squad. having them responsible for bags and coolers is just another way to have them feel "a part" of our program. we preach the importance of each player knowing his role within the team. from our all-state rb to our senior who only plays on kickoff.... all the way down to the freshman who carries the stepover on and off the bus. its really not a big deal in my opinion, and no kids have complained about it. i certainly wouldnt call it "hazing" either. "contribute to winning" is not the only thing teams should be concerned about..... when notre dame takes the field and each player taps the famous sign while exiting the lockerroom.... how does that "contribute to winning"? what "lesson" is being learned? Pep rallies, homecoming dances, or tapping a sign doesn't transfer some kind of privileged status to some players that is denied to others.
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Post by khalfie on Aug 1, 2010 0:17:54 GMT -6
I believe in hazing...
As a member of a fraternity, a member of several football programs, and a father, I think there exist very few instances in which a person humbles themself to a voluntary situation not for their betterment.
I've been paddled, berated, humiliated, and forced to answer some tough questions about integrity, honor, and selflessness.
Can those questions be asked within the environment of football? Maybe, maybe not? But the way one reacts to a situation of adversity, as small as humbling themselves to carry someone elses pad, simply because they were told to do it...
Well... its like the old saying goes. Football doesn't develop character... it reveals it.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 1, 2010 6:52:41 GMT -6
I've been paddled, berated, humiliated, and forced to answer some tough questions about integrity, honor, and selflessness. khal - How your wife spends Saturday night should really be kept between the two of you...
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Post by khalfie on Aug 1, 2010 8:35:29 GMT -6
I've been paddled, berated, humiliated, and forced to answer some tough questions about integrity, honor, and selflessness. khal - How your wife spends Saturday night should really be kept between the two of you... My doctor says its healthy and natural! However, the real point of the hazing... isn't the physical / mental challenge... but... is when you, as a man, say, "no more!", and why you say, "no more." The NO is everything, and though it would seem obvious to say no on the first day, the first time, therein lies the issue. Why are you saying no? The culture of this organization is below you? Beneath you? You think to highly of yourself to humble yourself as those before you have? You're afraid? The reason isn't as important as the fact that you have been challenged, and your response is contrary to those that you claim to want to allege yourself with. Its not important what the organization, the culture has chosen, as its rite of passage, whats important is your willingness, or unwillingness, to do as those before you have done. In all hazing, you have the right to say NO... however, don't be upset, when others define for you what that NO means for this organization.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 1, 2010 8:50:30 GMT -6
I do think that there is a place for a legitimate initiation rite that builds a bond between new members of an organization and veterans. I think that carrying shoulder pads or singing a school song probably fits into that category.
However, whenever someone is humiliated or taken advantage of, that, IMO, is unacceptable. And that's the basic problem with condoning these kinds of rituals...the line between what is and what is not acceptable is blurry and easily crossed.
The question I have for you guys who think Dez Bryant was in the wrong...how would you have handled it if you were a veteran player? If you believe that these kinds of rites are essential to the bonding process, how do deal with a new member of the organization who does not want to comply with your traditions?
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Post by khalfie on Aug 1, 2010 9:28:09 GMT -6
Allow me to preface my comments on hazing with the following. 1. Though I believe it has its value, I believe it is entirely too dangerous to be practiced and used by young men in recreational circumstances. 2. And though I think it is a very powerful tool self-awareness and introspection, for those not interested in asking themselves the tough questions, it could be a problem. However, whenever someone is humiliated or taken advantage of, that, IMO, is unacceptable. And that's the basic problem with condoning these kinds of rituals...the line between what is and what is not acceptable is blurry and easily crossed. I understand your perception on this, and even recognize it as legitimate... however, the process, at that particular moment of the initiates quest to become a member of whatever, has to be real, in the initiates mind... the only way a challenge can be recognized as such, is if it is truly challenging. In Fraternity's for example... everyone knows that they are going to get paddled, squeeze a banana in a toilet, or whatever... so how do you remove the farce from the ritual, and make it real for the initiate? Hence the need for the physicality, the brutality, the humiliation... Mentally, you have been removed from your comfort level, because of the physicality, even the brutality. Even worse, its all voluntary, you can quit anytime you want, but again, refusing says so much more than the actual hazing. Yes, the line is very blurry, but it has to be... for it to be taken serious. The shoulder pad ritual, is obviously not that serious... it is only as serious as those involved make it? The question I have for you guys who think Dez Bryant was in the wrong...how would you have handled it if you were a veteran player? If you believe that these kinds of rites are essential to the bonding process, how do deal with a new member of the organization who does not want to comply with your traditions? Again... whomever is attempting to do the hazing, has to take the responsibility of how serious the ritual is. If it is truly important, the initiate will be ostracized from the group, until he chooses to comply. If its not important, they'll ignore it, and move on... Either way, the importance of this particular hazing will be made apparent.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 1, 2010 9:41:10 GMT -6
If its not important, they'll ignore it, and move on... If that is the case, then why even bother with the ritual in the first place? I mean...if these rites are so essential for bonding rookies with veterans...if they are such important customs that must be upheld and respected...then how can a refusal to participate simply be ignored? How can the established members of the organization simply "move on" after a novice commits such a serious transgression of the group's culture, history, and tradition? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
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Post by khalfie on Aug 1, 2010 10:00:53 GMT -6
If that is the case, then why even bother with the ritual in the first place? Rituals are handed down from those before you, to give to those that come after you. If those before you, don't properly inform you of why it is important to hand to those that come after you, its importance can be lost. I can't speak to why NFL'ers do what they do... I could hypothesize, but it would only be a guess. I could guess to its importance, as it seems all programs do it. However, the hazing doesn't have to be intense to be effective... an old pro asking, and a rookie answering could be more than enough. Is the rookie willing to play by the unwritten rules? Yes or No? That may be enough, within itself. I mean...if these rites are so essential for bonding rookies with veterans...if they are such important customs that must be upheld and respected...then how can a refusal to participate simply be ignored? How can the established members of the organization simply "move on" after a novice commits such a serious transgression of the group's culture, history, and tradition? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? Again... hazing, isn't about MAKING you do anything... its purely voluntary... you can always say NO... however, the hazing, the question, the saying NO, defines you... and once defined, the Hazing has done its part. Its not about being upheld, respected, its about asking you a tough question, and seeing how you answer. You aren't apart of the group, culture, the history, the tradition, if you do not partake... you have defined yourself as an outsider... The hazing has served its purpose... it has allowed YOU to define yourself as an insider or outsider... that's all it was meant to do... No one forces you do to anything... you define yourself as a member or not.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 1, 2010 10:47:56 GMT -6
Its not about being upheld, respected, its about asking you a tough question, and seeing how you answer. You aren't apart of the group, culture, the history, the tradition, if you do not partake... you have defined yourself as an outsider... So, for the rest of his career, Dez Bryant will be judged an "outsider"? There is no recovery from what he did?
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 1, 2010 11:06:14 GMT -6
Again guys... this is NOT our arena. We have no more insight to the interpersonal relationships of NFL players and organizational dynamics of NFL teams than we do the complexity of the crumbling economy of Greece.
This is the epitome thread of "everyone has opinions and ______holes"
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Post by khalfie on Aug 1, 2010 11:09:11 GMT -6
Its not about being upheld, respected, its about asking you a tough question, and seeing how you answer. You aren't apart of the group, culture, the history, the tradition, if you do not partake... you have defined yourself as an outsider... So, for the rest of his career, Dez Bryant will be judged an "outsider"? There is no recovery from what he did? Nah... Everything is temporary... which is why his refusal, speaks so much louder than his willingness... He chose the blue pill, for whatever reason... and while he's with the Cowboys, and those veterans are around... he'll be that guy. Doesn't mean he won't be all pro... does mean he won't be team captain... won't be asked to the linemen get together... but he chose that path. 5 years from now... it'll be forgotten like the scabs that cross the picket lines, or the teachers that refuse to strike... but for right now... at this moment... when the team is trying to come together for the season... Dez has identified himself as an individual first. More so, he's provided everyone, that has a problem with him... the justification for why HE's the problem.
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Post by bouncingboredom on Aug 1, 2010 21:12:38 GMT -6
In Fraternity's for example... everyone knows that they are going to get paddled, squeeze a banana in a toilet, or whatever... so how do you remove the farce from the ritual, and make it real for the initiate? Hence the need for the physicality, the brutality, the humiliation... Mentally, you have been removed from your comfort level, because of the physicality, even the brutality. Even worse, its all voluntary, you can quit anytime you want, but again, refusing says so much more than the actual hazing. There are numbers you can all if you need to talk to someone about this.
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hoosier
Sophomore Member
Posts: 176
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Post by hoosier on Aug 2, 2010 0:17:27 GMT -6
Its not about being upheld, respected, its about asking you a tough question, and seeing how you answer. You aren't apart of the group, culture, the history, the tradition, if you do not partake... you have defined yourself as an outsider... So, for the rest of his career, Dez Bryant will be judged an "outsider"? There is no recovery from what he did? perhaps next year he will carry a rookies pads and inspire a change of culture on a team of super star primadonnas?
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Post by pvogel on Aug 2, 2010 0:54:12 GMT -6
nice little debate we got goin here.
i would like to point out the great flaw in the nfl's pay scale though. It certainly puts a huge target on the rooks. For the teachers out there, it would be like if your school hired someone who had never taught before and yet they are paid oodles and oodles more than you.
not justifying it, im just seeing both sides of it. and i certainly wouldnt want this goin on in my program.
and a side story- when i went to school, one of the girls athletic team had a nice little introduction to the new varsity members. They went to a local eatery and ordered a milkshake. Burgers, fries, ketchup, relish, ranch, whatever anything in sight was thrown into this milkshake. new girls drank it. really nasty stuff. but they always had great relationships with each other. and they were very very good.
interesting thread though. good stuff.
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Post by coachks on Aug 2, 2010 8:33:21 GMT -6
It's a lack of respect. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if it's the NFL, High School, the workplace or the shopping mall. There's a level of respect that is expected to be shown to people with a more senior role (be it veteran players, an authority figure or a simple store employee trying to organize the checkout line).
If you choose to show the lack of respect, you face being ostracized, until you choose to conform. If he is having a issues learning the playbook or understanding a technique, he probably won't get help from the veterans he just disrespected. Maybe he won't get invited over for a poker night or maybe the vet won't pick up his bill after a dinner one night. Who knows?
It's no different than the Sophmore on varsity who won't listen to the seniors. He isn't going to get the invite to the post-game party. Maybe they won't let him borrow an undershirt. Maybe they'll makeup some nickname for him. Once he conforms he's accepted, until then he's not. Boo-hoo.
The same thing exists in the conventional workplace. We've all probably worked with a person who wants to change something the first day on the job. Maybe they take food that isn't theirs, finish the coffee without refilling it or they refuse to watch the lunchroom. They end up isolating themselves until they either quit or conform.
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Post by phantom on Aug 2, 2010 8:39:45 GMT -6
The same thing exists in the conventional workplace. We've all probably worked with a person who wants to change something the first day on the job. Maybe they take food that isn't theirs, Whoah! Nobody- NOBODY- messes with my food.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 2, 2010 10:20:39 GMT -6
Whoah! Nobody- NOBODY- messes with my food.
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