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Post by brophy on Jul 16, 2010 8:49:34 GMT -6
I was spending a few hours yesterday afternoon just soaking up a major 7on7 tournament locally and couldn't help but wonder if the time (and money) couldn't have been used better. Now, there was some pretty good competitions, a good time (entertainment), and kids got to be active and, I suppose, get better acclimated with their systems, but......... I saw very little good/winning technique being reinforced. The guys who actually were using/impressing with solid technique probably were getting something out of the snaps (2 quarterbacks out of more than a dozen), but for the vast majority of players, it was a sink-or-swim-I-don't-care-how-you-do-this-just-don't-get-beat approach to playing. The guys mentioned using technique (and excelling on the field) certainly learned these mechanics and honed them at a camp or something........not at / in 7on7. For the rest of the 'country coverage' and slop 2-man being played and tight bunch (2 yards from the ball spot), and receivers split to 1 yard within the sideline......... I don't see what this did to develop the players or build them for anything meaningful with the game. Could it be argued that (perish the thought) that a team forgo a heavy 7on7 schedule, and better use those $300-$800 program expenditures on bringing the kids in for some fun (team building) activity and devote 2-3 hours on hammering home one or two simple, fundamental techniques? Whether it be stance and starts, or receiver releases, or man technique.........I wonder if you wouldn't be a better all-around team if you were solid at doing one thing, rather than throwing a mash of stuff against the wall and hope something sticks? Now, I'm all for 7on7 and like it. Any time we can justify spending with our players is a good thing. However, when it comes to making an investment in your season, does a heavy 7on7 schedule (or $$ use) not a wise cost-benefit?
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 16, 2010 9:06:15 GMT -6
An excellent question. I really think it comes down to the individual programs and coaches. We've all seen the junk offenses and defenses that occur in 7 on 7. At the same time it IS time being spent as a team and in "competition". I remember early in my career I put way too much emphasis on winning the game instead of teaching and coaching the kids. I think its like anything else, 7 on 7 is a tool. In the hands of a Master Craftsman it can create something beautiful. In the hands of an amateur, it can do more harm than good.
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Post by cc on Jul 16, 2010 9:14:46 GMT -6
I really don't get the slamming of 7 on 7 so much. Our kids and coaches love it.
Now we don't run a 7 on 7 offense. We use our offense. But we do "tweak" it a bit as it's a much more spread version with everyone running patterns than we would normally use. It's more of a have-to-pass version of our system.
I think it has great value - it is a team builder, the kids love it and they get to bond. When you were young didn't you play pickup football with your friends? Well this is a better version. I think sometimes as coaches we spend so much worrying about the Technical side that we lose track of the fun-value of it.
Anyways, getting back to the technical . I see A LOT of skills that get neglected when the pads get put on that are honed in 7 on 7's. As a DB/WR/QB coach I think it has HUGE value to work on those fine points.
Yes I know some if it is "well that would never happen in REAL football".... but if you get beyond that and take it as is I think it's well worth the time and money.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Jul 16, 2010 9:21:50 GMT -6
Good to read posts from two great coaches.
Brophy is right, it's not meaningful. It's a waste of money if actually football is something you want to happen out there. I wish they would just let us practice instead of this charade called 7 on 7. However, at least it's something. But I don't think that a lot of money should be spent on it. I know big shot teams that use it as a publicity and recruiting tool though.
Rant following:
I have always thought that the POINT of 7 on 7 was not what everyone sees. Putting anything of value on these things is silly. The game isn't about what these guys do, but what the guys in the line do. Who in their right mind is going to be running this particular coverage in a real game anyway.
It doesn't say a thing about how successful a team's going to be. Case on point, a local team won our county's 7 on 7 with a T.E. at QB. They really thought they had done something, but promptly went on to a very disappointing losing season. Why? They were terrible in the offensive line-poor technique, too skinny, too young etc.
The game is won on the line-period.
But to me, that's not even the point. The point is that we actually get to play some semblance of football. While baseball and basketball get to play their sport all year long EXACTLY as they will play it in varsity competition, we would get thrown under the bus if we go out in the yard and throw the ball around.
After years of us fussing with the P.T.B. in the state association, they throw us a bone and AT LEAST give us this. I know I personally fussed at these guys for years that they allowed baseball and basketball to play and we are only allowed to lift weights and run. It fell on deaf ears for ever.
Now, at least, we have 7 on 7 and you don't get put on probation for picking up a football in the summer. Now, they've gone one step farther and let linemen put on pads for camp.
thank you thank you. Now we are at least able to COMPETE with the basketball and baseball coaches for some of our best kids. The higher the level of attention that 7 on 7 gets, the better chance we have to have our kids ready for the Fall.
Brophy, you are right, it ain't worth much, but MAN it's better than having to watch my kids play basketball and baseball.
OJW
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Post by brophy on Jul 16, 2010 9:29:07 GMT -6
nobody is slamming 7on7.
I think I said........"i love 7on7" (and yeah, I don't understand/endorse the immediate dismissals of the 'oh, we'll never see this...this isn't a real offense/defense')
Just an open-ended question.
If we spend 2-3 days or one long day and a substantial amount of cash running a sloppy version of our offense/defense, and at worst running backyard ball, would it be a better use of resources to just get the kids together and hone 1 skill?
Would getting (all) your kids together and spending that $300 on a slip n slide and pizza to lure them to have a good time and get them to focus on repeating one skill set for 2 hours (and team build), than going out and reinforcing poor mechanics.
Now, I think you can make 7on7 like a competitive practice and really hammer technique. The OP was going over how, in the last 3 or 4 years, I haven't seen anyone doing that (focusing more on 'just win' than 'how you play').
But then, maybe technique isn't / shouldn't be that high up on the list of needs for a season. I dunno. You can be a great technician and still lose, so I don't know.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 16, 2010 9:41:43 GMT -6
7on7 throughout the rest of the country is totally different than summer 7on7 in texas.
1. it is not a school event, no school funds can be spent on it. 2. coaching by high school coaches is prohibited 3. 'forcing' kids to play 7on7 is prohibited - it's not a school function so ...
so, our alternative here is for our kids to do absolutely nothing... which is why 7on7 is rather a big deal here in texas. this past weekend the state 7on7 tournament had 2 divisions with 64 teams each - they had to win a specific type of tournament to qualify. over 100 media passes were issued for various media outlets across the state. the championship was webcast by fox sports southwest.
it is the ONLY football thing available to us in the summer - we can't coach our kids, have football camps, or anything else. we adhere to the NCAA system - and may be even stricter in the summer.
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Post by coachweav88 on Jul 16, 2010 9:53:33 GMT -6
7on7 throughout the rest of the country is totally different than summer 7on7 in texas. 2. coaching by high school coaches is prohibited Who coaches the kids/calls plays etc.? Curious how this works because we may be able to use something from this idea.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 16, 2010 10:05:54 GMT -6
one of 2 things... parents or former players
they call their own plays - at least ours do. that is what i want. the qb has to think like a coach in calling our offense. the FS has to think like a coach in calling the coverages.
it is a "players" game ... i simply show up and watch them play. a parent rounds 'em up, they all meet somewhere then carpool to the tournaments. coaches get there before the start and sit in the back of the endzone out of the way. merely a spectator.
it is a teaching tool for the leadership of our ball club .... for the players to use our offense/defense to win a game .... THEY have to decipher/choose what is best to compete/win rather than simply execute a play we called for them.
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Post by blb on Jul 16, 2010 10:19:47 GMT -6
Good points raised, pro and con by earlier posters.
I am ambivalent about 7-on-7s. We don't do tournaments, "jamborees", or "shootouts."
We got together five times this summer (which was probably at least two times too many) with local schools. Score was not kept, ball was returned to same yard line each play.
I tell our kids these sessions are for teaching assignments-keys-responsibilities, pass patterns so they know WHAT to do.
Although I of course comment on technique during 7-on-7s (and even before at our one "install" practice before first session), we will polish up HOW to do things during our three-day camp last week in July (two weeks before practice starts). We do "Pass Skelly" each day during camp too.
We do not run anything offensively or defensively that we won't use during the season because we are not concerned about "winning" at 7-on-7s.
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Post by lochness on Jul 16, 2010 10:30:19 GMT -6
Good points raised, pro and con by earlier posters. I am ambivalent about 7-on-7s. We don't do tournaments, "jamborees", or "shootouts." We got together five times this summer (which was probably at least two times too many) with local schools. Score was not kept, ball was returned to same yard line each play. I tell our kids these sessions are for teaching assignments-keys-responsibilities, pass patterns so they know WHAT to do. Although I of course comment on technique during 7-on-7s (and even before at our one "install" practice before first session), we will polish up HOW to do things during our three-day camp last week in July (two weeks before practice starts). We do "Pass Skelly" each day during camp too. We do not run anything offensively or defensively that we won't use during the season because we are not concerned about "winning" at 7-on-7s. Ditto, ditto, ditto! Between what you and OJW have typed, I don't need to say much. We never do "tourneys" or anything like that. We partner with a few other local schools and we use it as a competitive teaching tool about 4 times during the summer. We don't keep score, we don't move the ball, and if a coach on the other team wants to see something again, we all help each other out. I don't have any desire to participate in a tournement or do it competitively. I'm in fundamentals teaching mode in the summer.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 16, 2010 10:41:27 GMT -6
Good points raised, pro and con by earlier posters. I am ambivalent about 7-on-7s. We don't do tournaments, "jamborees", or "shootouts." We got together five times this summer (which was probably at least two times too many) with local schools. Score was not kept, ball was returned to same yard line each play. I tell our kids these sessions are for teaching assignments-keys-responsibilities, pass patterns so they know WHAT to do. Although I of course comment on technique during 7-on-7s (and even before at our one "install" practice before first session), we will polish up HOW to do things during our three-day camp last week in July (two weeks before practice starts). We do "Pass Skelly" each day during camp too.We do not run anything offensively or defensively that we won't use during the season because we are not concerned about "winning" at 7-on-7s. Ditto, ditto, ditto! Between what you and OJW have typed, I don't need to say much. We never do "tourneys" or anything like that. We partner with a few other local schools and we use it as a competitive teaching tool about 4 times during the summer. We don't keep score, we don't move the ball, and if a coach on the other team wants to see something again, we all help each other out. I don't have any desire to participate in a tournement or do it competitively. I'm in fundamentals teaching mode in the summer. that stuff is great --- in states that allow such. Here, we got nothing other than the tournaments and leagues. neither of which can be coached by us (coaches). if we could coach our kids in the summer our version of 7on7 would be totally different than what we have. but, based on the parameters laid out by our governing body this is the best system we can devise. (btw, i sit on our state's 7on7 board of directors - which tries to maintain 7on7 'rules' to best match friday nights and keep it as mirrored closely to football as we can)
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Post by lochness on Jul 16, 2010 11:35:14 GMT -6
Ditto, ditto, ditto! Between what you and OJW have typed, I don't need to say much. We never do "tourneys" or anything like that. We partner with a few other local schools and we use it as a competitive teaching tool about 4 times during the summer. We don't keep score, we don't move the ball, and if a coach on the other team wants to see something again, we all help each other out. I don't have any desire to participate in a tournement or do it competitively. I'm in fundamentals teaching mode in the summer. that stuff is great --- in states that allow such. Here, we got nothing other than the tournaments and leagues. neither of which can be coached by us (coaches). if we could coach our kids in the summer our version of 7on7 would be totally different than what we have. but, based on the parameters laid out by our governing body this is the best system we can devise. (btw, i sit on our state's 7on7 board of directors - which tries to maintain 7on7 'rules' to best match friday nights and keep it as mirrored closely to football as we can) Oh, I understand. Our rules here are really weird. We can't work with JUST our team during the summer. So, if we were to go out and run pass plays on air or against our own defense, that's illegal. BUT, if we get together with 1 or 2 other area schools and call it a "Summer Passing Camp" we can do whatever we want. It's kind of ridiculous. Do you know why the rules are so strict? Is it simply because it mirrors the NC2A rules, or are there reasons for having the off-season limitations?
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Post by rpetrie on Jul 16, 2010 11:38:06 GMT -6
We do 1 tournament during the summer. Local college (Stony Brook University - FCS Great South) runs a tournament that draws teams from NYC, Long Island, New Jersey & Connecticut. Don Bosco Prep and some other highly ranked regional teams come so it can be quite competitive. Probably not to the extreme that Texas has with a State Tournament, but still good. It is quite obvious that we can't compete with such teams athletically, but the kids still want the challenge and that reason alone is worth the $300 entry fee. We simply want our kids to compete athletically and see how they respond (good & bad).
Being a small school (Long Island, NY) it is often difficult to get kids to split time from baseball, basketball and around here LACROSSE consumes a ton of summer time with travel teams, tournaments & showcases. But...this is a tool for getting them involved and allowing us to work on OUR techniques. We do not put in C2-MAN, or anything formationally that we won't use...and yes we will run Waggle a couple times per game.
So 2x per week from mid-May through mid July we get quality work in with the July tournament as the focus. After that we group with other local schools of various divisions to have a few inter-squad workouts 1x a week for 2-3 weeks. Then we are starting double sessions. Makes a nice transition and provides motivation to stay involved. If we have them through the end of July then the transition into August is much easier and we aren't starting from scratch come. Do I think that $300 could be spent elsewhere...yes, but it wouldn't yield the same results because our skill kids aren't all "football first athletes" so the motivation is vital. What other options though are really out there?
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cls
Junior Member
Posts: 295
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Post by cls on Jul 16, 2010 14:28:50 GMT -6
In Ohio you are allowed 10 days of coaching during the summer (Between June 1st and July 31st. First day of official practice is August 2). Coaching in Ohio varry how they use them. Some spread coaches use 10 days of 7 on 7. Others do none at all but have 10 days of practice and installation. Our program (we are a multiple offense), we do 3 7 on 7s. Two days with 3 other teams and one day with 7 other teams. On all of those, we do not use an entire practice on 7 on 7. We may practice for 2 hours then take a break then have the 7 on 7 for 2 hours.
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Post by coachbb on Jul 16, 2010 14:44:52 GMT -6
Mostly a curiousity question for Huey or any other Texas coaches, but can a coach ref a 7 on 7 game?
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Post by blb on Jul 16, 2010 15:50:22 GMT -6
How much 7-on-7 you do in summer probably has to do with how much you throw the ball or see passing teams in-season, as well as what your state association allows you to do.
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Post by coachbdud on Jul 16, 2010 18:23:26 GMT -6
Damn you Brophy, Why do you always have to make insightful posts and start up threads where a coach has to actually do some serious thinking about the value of what they do and how they do it. Stop making us think!!! Let us be happy with minimal thinking and effort and thus blind to the mediocrity of what we do as coaches. Sarcasm of course. Excellent Points Thats why we have forgone the expensive 7 on 7 tourneys in favor of smaller local ones. We still get the same amount of games but for next to nothing in terms of price. Our 7 on 7 actually does help us, at the very least offensively, this is our first year as an air raid passing team so the more reps against a defense the better. And our DC actually runs his coverages... no man 2 deep in order to try to win a tourney. We go simply to improve the things we already have in our playbook.
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Post by airraider on Jul 16, 2010 18:53:31 GMT -6
nm
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Jul 16, 2010 20:54:36 GMT -6
Hey, is Brophy like the little spoiled brat kid who starts a fight then hides in the bushes to watch it? Just wonderin' OJW
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Post by phscoach08 on Jul 16, 2010 21:21:30 GMT -6
I like 7 on 7 competition during the summer. It allows our kids to rep (alighment, qb reads, routes, etc) our formations and plays that we run during the season. Also it allows our younger kids to get alot of reps leading into their first year of varsity as a jv player. We don't tweak/change anything in summer 7 on 7 competition that we do with our passing game during the season. It's all about executing what we will run during the season. Yes, we will see 2 man alot of times, but that will help us to work on our passing game vs press coverage, although we will not often see a 2 man coverage if ever. Some games we will see cover 1. Defensively, we are mostly a cover 3 team and that is what we run most in our 7 on 7 competition. We also do not participate in entry fee tournaments. We are fortunate to have a tournament of 8 teams in our area that is free because of the sponsors that sponsor the tournament (they even feed the kids/coaches after the tournament). We also schedule several 7 on 7 scrimmages with other local schools throughout the summer at no cost.
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Post by lionhart on Jul 17, 2010 7:30:15 GMT -6
one thing our kids get out of 7 on 7......... they get to learn our signals, formations and calls.(we are no-huddle and signal every play.) so our kids get alot of reps of practicing our procedure... whistle blows play dead, look to sideline to find signalling coach, get to formation alignment while recieving the play call, listen for audible, run play, repeat. it serves as conditoning when we go up tempo... and allows our skill guys to get familiar with procedure and hand signals.
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 17, 2010 11:18:50 GMT -6
We do a local (county) thing that's super informal and very relaxed a few times a summer. We mostly use it to experiment a little and hone a lot. We were facing a team that has a pretty good receiver, to we experimented with playing our best CB m2m on him and then everyone else doing their usual C.2 stuff. Went really well, we'll probably do it against him during the season because he folded like a house of cards (interesting sign when a kid mentally folds from being shut down in 7's). We experimented with a "2 X" package where we took out the TE and ran a lot of flexbone formation stuff (we're wing-t). But you better believe we ran the heck out of waggle from every conceivable formation and route combo.
We also do 11 on 11 vs a friendly team where you can run any pass, screen, draw or outside sweep. Offensive team's coaches run a quick whistle to keep tempers down. It really highlighted 2 things for me: 1-we can't protect for shizz on the edge atm, and 2-taking the inside game out of the wing-t really makes it a bad offense. The first lesson is important, the second not so much. We now have film to use to improve ourselves and see what we need to get better at, all in all it's very productive stuff. I really encourage you guys who can to try it out some time.
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Post by drewdawg265 on Jul 17, 2010 14:39:09 GMT -6
One thing we have done this year that has been good is split our expected #1s and #2s and make two team. Our qbs take the same reps with both offenses and do 7 on 7 against ourselves. It makes it tougher on the offenses because the defense have a solid knowledge of all of our offensive concepts. We keep score and run our stuff exactly how it will be run during the saeson. We have done this 4 times so far this summer and it has ended up working out better than when we have worked against other teams. All four times it has been very competitive as far as the score goes. It has also really helped us evauluate close competitions between starters. Another plus as an offensive coach I have specifically been attacking areas that I think our defense has to improve on. Specific players that are having a tough time guarding certain routes will get a ton of reps against those routes. Doing these have sped up our improvment.
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Post by buck42 on Jul 17, 2010 16:51:26 GMT -6
We only did 3 7v7's this summer...had one more scheduled but was rained out...
I only play a couple of other coaches that are trying to prepare for the season and treat it like a practice. We run our basic spread type offense and our basic defense. None of us use 5 WRs, we do get a back out in the pattern, but we do not line up in 5 WR...
We play VERY little C2 Man...we play C0,C1, C2, C3...it is has been very productive...
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mhs99
Junior Member
Posts: 250
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Post by mhs99 on Jul 17, 2010 19:23:44 GMT -6
7 on 7's are one of the most overrated aspects of high school football today. They are great for conditioning and that only. Here are the reasons they are ineffective:
1. Unless you are a football power that throws a tone there is little schematically to be gained here. Now if you are a 5A Texas school, large Florida or California school, or a 2,500 kid school this may be effective. The problem is 85% of high schools in the country that play football are not.
2. Too many teams that are a 4-4 or 5-3 teams during the season use two safeties and Cover 2 and 4 to be “competitive”. Garbage. If you don’t do it in season, do not do it in 7 on 7’s. It leads to bad habits. Give your DB’ and LB’s the looks they will get during the year and let them react appropriately.
3. On the flip side I see power I teams in 5 wide throwing the bal all over the place, again ridiculous. My kids say why do we run play action in passing league? Answer: because it works in real football because we beat the piss out of teams running the ball and boot, waggle, power pass are ones we complete 75% of the time in real games. Do what you do to improve timing.
4. At small schools, it is a grind to get three sport kids to participate in the summer with baseball and hoop going on.
5. Does anyone remember 7 on 7 champions???
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Post by fballcoachg on Jul 17, 2010 19:29:53 GMT -6
we just spent the weekend at the vandy 7s and i thought it had a lot of positives....competition, team building, building confidence in one another....BUT, we had a kid and coach join us on the second day who just got back from an FCA camp. I won't even pretend to know what happens at that camp but I do know that our player enjoyed it quite a bit. The plus to 7s is building comraderie and competition BUT you are leaving out arguably the most important part of the team...the line. So I guess in this slightly unfocused rant I am saying that I like anything that fosters team and competition but would love if there was a way to involve the o and d line. I think the best thing you can build in the off season is not the understanding of plays but the sense of responsibility and team so I am for anything that builds that whether it be 7s, a retreat, weight room, whatever.
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2010 19:50:18 GMT -6
99, you make some good points, many of which were touched on before - no need to be so strident.
Every situation is different and one coach's garbage could be another's gold.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 17, 2010 21:17:42 GMT -6
A tangent to Brophy's original post...AND along the same lines of thinking as my "My personnel Sucks" thread..
It seems that "everyone" seems to point out the practice of teams doing things outside of their normal system during 7 on 7, and "everyone" seems to agree that this is a ridiculous practice. So..if "everybody" sees it as a stupid thing to do.....who is doing it?
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Post by brophy on Jul 17, 2010 21:59:28 GMT -6
Good points, and is essentially the premise behind the thread question. We do it because we do it. We've got to do something. Other teams are doing something, so if we aren't doing something, then what are we doing? So it become something akin to 'missle gap'n where we're just chasing ghosts. If there is no real difference that can be seen in mid-September, then what difference does it make? If what we invest X amount of time/money in ____ but don't see any significant impact (where it matters), are we losing anything by not doing it? Now this may not be a fundamental truth - it may be something great for your program. I'm not against 7on7 at all. I get the 'experience with the system' / competition argument. *so spare me the "when the machine breaks down, we break down" type of rebuttal I was just wondering if there might be a better investment to be made in the summer months to - address player burnout/sport fatigue - something, anything that benefits the TEAM success in the season. What's the worst that could happen by not doing it? If the impact isn't significant, could that energy be directed elsewhere? -
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Post by phantom on Jul 17, 2010 23:26:25 GMT -6
Good points, and is essentially the premise behind the thread question. We do it because we do it. We've got to do something. Other teams are doing something, so if we aren't doing something, then what are we doing? So it become something akin to 'missle gap'n where we're just chasing ghosts. If there is no real difference that can be seen in mid-September, then what difference does it make? If what we invest X amount of time/money in ____ but don't see any significant impact (where it matters), are we losing anything by not doing it? Now this may not be a fundamental truth - it may be something great for your program. I'm not against 7on7 at all. I get the 'experience with the system' / competition argument. *so spare me the "when the machine breaks down, we break down" type of rebuttal I was just wondering if there might be a better investment to be made in the summer months to - address player burnout/sport fatigue - something, anything that benefits the TEAM success in the season. What's the worst that could happen by not doing it? If the impact isn't significant, could that energy be directed elsewhere? - I'm not a fan of 7-on-7 at all. As others have said, though, in our state it's the only chance that we have to do football stuff with our kids during the summer.
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