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Post by hamerhead on Jun 21, 2010 20:53:07 GMT -6
Hello gents. I'm intending this thread to be a general discussion about freshman playing varsity football, but I have a specific situation I'd like to hear your thoughts on as well. I work at a small school in a rural area, about 350 kids total. We generally have anywhere between 45-55 kids out, grades 9-12. We play a Varsity and JV schedule, with maybe one Frosh game along the way. I stress that, because I really believe this situation is different for larger programs, so perhaps this relates more to smaller schools. Four months ago we thought we were going to be starting five juniors across the offensive line. The HC was not asked back due to a variety of reasons not related to wins/losses (traditionally we're pretty successful, but went 5-5 last season.) We've never been opposed to playing sophmores who are ready, three of those juniors started on one side of the ball or the other last year and are pretty good. The other two (guards in my mind) both played well at the JV level and got a lot bigger/stronger over the winter. Fast forward - one of the returning starter juniors has decided not to play. He has all the tools, and I mean he could be/could've been a fringe D-I/D-II kid if he had the heart. But he doesn't, just doesn't love the game and seems really upset the old HC got canned, though he's familiar with the new HC and seems to like him well enough. Another probable starter (one of the callups from the JV) is reportedly 'on the fence' about playing. He's incredibly strong but he's not the sharpest tool in the shed and has been at zero weight sessions and missed two days of our five day camp last week. Kids are telling me he doesn't want to play OL (he's competing for a LB spot, and wouldn't be our fourth best RB). So, I'm down two OL. And I don't know where they're coming from. I have a senior who started 9 games OL last year, but is also uncommitted at the moment. He was an average OL at best (300lbs, though) and will need to be our NT in our 3-5. I don't think he has any chance at being in shape enough to play both ways, especially not lifting/running this summer. I could weight out the other 'uncommitted' kid and see if changes his mind when he realizes he'll be standing on the sidelines if he doesn't play OL. I have a STUD 270lb DL returning (senior) who played OL most of last year. One play he'd look like Tarzan, the next he'd look like Jane. Frankly, he doesn't have the heart to block consistently at the OL, he gets banged up a lot, is out of shape, etc. He's just not a "team" guy and if the play is going away from him or he has to work particularly hard, he's not interested. He'll probably be a situational RB/TE for us to go along with his DL duties, he's done it before and responds better in that role, he's good at it. (D-I body, Juco brain...) SOOOO...... I have these two freshman lineman. Both are flirting with 200lbs (which isn't huge obviously, but in our class/conference is big enough to get the job done) and are pretty athletic. One of them is freakishly so, he could almost play RB. Both are attacking the weight room this summer. One of them had an older brother who just graduated and was a four year starter for us at OL, he was a stud. They squat/clean well, move well, and seem committed. They're freshman so they do as their told no questions asked.  I teach at the Middle School, and have had them both in numerous classes and know them well (so I may be biased). They're great kids and will one day be AWESOME varsity football players, I believe that. The question is...is that day this season? We open the first week on the road at a major conference rival who went 13-1 last year, not losing until the class 3 championship game. We lost to them in OT last season, and had a lead with :06 left in the 4th Q. I'm scared to death of trotting out two freshman OL against this team, I don't want to ruin them. I don't want to ruin their work ethic if they feel like "they've made it" as freshman. They have the tools, but freshman generally lack the mental makeup to handle Friday nights Ok, I've rambled long enough. What do you guys think: 1) Generally speaking, can freshman with gifted physical tools handle playing Varsity ball? Or should it only be left to cases of absolute desperation or extreeeemely talented freshman? 2) Am I in a "desperate situation" in which I should look at my freshman because they're more committed, more willing, and are physically capable of playing at that level? Is OL just too hard of a position for freshman to play? Sorry for taking up so much of your time, hopefully you skimmed. I look forward to hearing everybody's thoughts. |
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cwood
Junior Member
Posts: 262
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Post by cwood on Jun 21, 2010 21:29:16 GMT -6
If they are 2 of the best 5 then play them. Now it's up to you to get them ready. Coach the heck out of them. I would much rather have a kid that wants it than a kid thats on the fence. One of them had an older brother start all 4 years so that is probably the expectations he is holding for himself. There is nothing wrong with young kids. Like you said they do whatever you say so what you see is what your coaching. Play the best 5 and you don't have to worry about anything.
That's my thoughts!
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Post by jhanawa on Jun 21, 2010 21:45:25 GMT -6
They have the tools, but freshman generally lack the mental makeup to handle Friday nights
This is my concern also, some kids might seem physically ready but the speed of the game at the Varsity level and the techniques/strength required are difficult for freshmen to grasp. IMO, its quite easy to miscalculate and bring a kid up and get him shell shocked. This is the last thing that you want to do. IMO, keeping the freshmen together and building the program from the bottom up are important for long term program development. I can see it if pure necessity dictates it at a small school, however, at bigger schools, I don't think it should happen, if so, it should be extremely rare.
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Post by phantom on Jun 21, 2010 22:16:37 GMT -6
Best players play. Ideally you could break them in as starters gradually and it looks like you may be able to do that. You have two guys who may be able to start the season as starters while you get the freshmen playing time giving the starters breaks. Maybe the young kids will gradually take over as starters or maybe the older kids will be able to play if the get some breaks.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jun 21, 2010 22:23:38 GMT -6
If you're worried about them getting big heads and worried that they'll get overwhelmed against a much better opponent, I figure they'll cancel out. What's the worst that could happen?
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Post by Chris Clement on Jun 21, 2010 22:26:08 GMT -6
If you're worried about them getting big heads and worried that they'll get overwhelmed against a much better opponent, I figure they'll cancel out. What's the worst that could happen? (I'm chuckling as I type this)
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Post by buck42 on Jun 22, 2010 7:03:51 GMT -6
I am in a similar situation...I just took over a new program about a week ago. During our workouts we have small numbers compared to the other school in the area. However, we do have 3 freshman that are in the top 2-3 at their position right now. We have a TB, TE, WR right now that are pretty impressive. However, it has always been my feeling that you have to hold off on placing a freshman on Varsity until after we hit. I feel pretty solid that all three will be on Varsity unless we get a influx of some skill kids.
I agree with dcohio, they are freshman now, but come their senior year they will be 4 year staters...
My only advice is the same that I am TRYING to take myself, just be careful getting big eyed about a freshman...they can look good in shorts and a helmet but when its time to hit, they will prove it they are ready....then get excited....
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Post by blb on Jun 22, 2010 7:12:12 GMT -6
If a young player and an older player are even, younger plays.
Older kid should be stronger, faster, more mature; has more experience, has been coached more. If he's been "resting on his laurels", expecting to play just because of his status - or flat-out caught by the other kid, he finds somewhere else to play or goes to the bench.
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Post by gunrun on Jun 22, 2010 7:24:02 GMT -6
We had the best two players on our team get arrested before the season started and we were forced to start two freshmen at WR on a team that liked to throw the ball (we also had a freshman QB). We took some lumps, but by game 6, they started to really step up and make some plays. The next year they took off--QB avg'd over 200 yds/game and WR had over 1,000 yds.
Young guys can get the job done if you work at it. You must coach them up after every single practice rep and the use of practice and game film is essential to correct mistakes and improve technique.
I agree with everyone else, if younger player is close in ability to the older player, go with the younger player.
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Post by mattharris75 on Jun 22, 2010 7:24:36 GMT -6
Hamerhead, I think you've gotten a lot of good advice on this. If they are the best players, they should play. This may be a rare situation at a large school, but it happens all the time at the small school level.
We're a school similar in size to yours, 5 years ago we started a freshman at QB. He took a few lumps early, but he was the best we had and 4 years later his name was all over the state record books (From 3rd to 12th in most statistical categories all-time), including breaking a 23 year old state record for most passes completed in a game. This year we have 2 freshmen who will be starting both ways. (one at LT/NG, the other at TE/LB) It happens.
The best advice I've got is, 'don't over think it.' Play your best players and take your lumps early if you have to. They will most likely surprise you in both good and bad ways at times, but ultimately they will be better players for it.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jun 22, 2010 7:31:51 GMT -6
This is tough-
I personally think it is critical to put a player in a position to be successful. Confidence and knowing that you have had a great season and can beat people your age is an impiortant aspect of growth/maturity/development.
I have seen (and been guilty of) basically "ruining" talented youngsters who were not ready to play at the varsity level. I agree with phantom in that "the best players play," but I also think that I'd rather have a guy with varsity experience switch positions before I play up a youngin.
My personal philosophy is:
1) Let them be dominant at their level- it build confidence and is a natural pogression.
2) Only let "new varsity" players start one way- in my experience a first time vvarsity guy will have too much on his plate trying to play O & D & ST.
3) Once they have established themselves at one position, let them start to establish themselves on the other side of the ball- more repsonsibility can be very detrimental to the young psyche
Now, if the freshman is an absolute DUDE then I would consider skipping step 1 but adhere to the other two rules.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jun 22, 2010 7:36:08 GMT -6
One thing that I do (I picked up from BigM) is to list my top offesnive players in order regardless of position. Have everyone on your staff do that. Then look at your top 15- how many RB's are on that list? How many OL?
If you are going to truly play your best 11-15 then you may have to make some position changes. IMO it is pointless to put a slug out at WR if there is a better RB on the bench- find a way to get him on the field in the slug's place. Same goes for OL- you have got to have your 5 OL positions filled from that top 15
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cmpd
Sophomore Member
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Post by cmpd on Jun 22, 2010 9:01:17 GMT -6
If he is the best play him. Make sure you are going to play him. He does not have to start but should have a lot of playing time to make it worth while.
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Post by coachsky on Jun 22, 2010 9:52:42 GMT -6
I tend to agree with Coach White.
I want them to reach their greatest success over the course of their high school careers. I've seen kids rushed into playing when they weren't ready and I think it hurt the kids overall playing career. They weren't as good as Jr's and Sr's as they could have been.
We are a big school and have only had two kids ever play varsity ball in 11 years. We had a Freshman start at MLBer for four years. He's going to a D1 this year. Those are freakish situations.
I understand that at smaller schools you may need to push kids a long a little faster, especially if they are your best kids.
I would however, really watch how they work against your best players. If you get and preseason work, feather them in and see how they perform. My preference would always be caution, let the get time but probably not start.
We have three OL/DL Juniors who will start this year. We groomed them all last year as Sophomores, giving them more and more time throughout the season. They played in 3 playoff games, but never started. They are frickne stallions right now, ready to roll. Already leaders in the weight room and on the practice field this spring. They are ready for the bigtime. They are dominant in our spring camps. Two of them should get league honors this year.
Right now, they are better than all of last years lineman but one. This is a case where we waited and groomed them. We do have a bigger group and have the luxury of doing this.
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Post by mattharris75 on Jun 22, 2010 12:27:22 GMT -6
I want them to reach their greatest success over the course of their high school careers. I've seen kids rushed into playing when they weren't ready and I think it hurt the kids overall playing career. They weren't as good as Jr's and Sr's as they could have been. We are a big school and have only had two kids ever play varsity ball in 11 years. We had a Freshman start at MLBer for four years. He's going to a D1 this year. Those are freakish situations. It would be nice to have the luxury of waiting with some kids. Keep in mind that the level of competition that kids at smaller schools face is commensurate with school size. So, those kids who are future elite players are more often ready at the freshman level than they might be at a larger school because they just don't need quite the same level of both physical and mental development that they would need to compete at a larger school. In the case of the 2 of our freshman starters this season, both went through the spring with us. One is a 6'2", 270 pound lineman who was pushing around some of our better upperclassman players throughout spring drills. He also comes from athletic stock, as his dad played O Line at FSU. He has some bad weight on him, as you would expect for a current 8th grader, but he is a beast. The second player is a 6'2", 200 pound kid who had 31 tackles in a single junior high game last season. He is top 50 in the country for his age group in basketball, and has been playing that at the varsity level since 7th grade. We manned him up on our opponent's best player during our spring game and he totally shut the other kid down. These kids are the exceptions, but at our level we often have a number of freshmen who are contributors, if not starters. Last year was more typical for us, we had 5 freshmen who played 30% or more of our snaps on one side of the ball, but none who were regular starters. It's just a fact of life for most smaller programs. We dress 50 kids 9th-12th. |
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Post by coachguy83 on Jun 22, 2010 17:12:25 GMT -6
I played at a small school and understand the need to play freshmen at the varsity level. Most of the time they are kids I would try to work in on special teams or as a second team guy, but sometimes you have to start them. They are going to go through some growing pains, but if they are 2 of your best 5 Olinemen you have to play them.
Whitemike52 also made a very good point about trying to get your best 11 on the field. You might have a guy that is a back up FB or TE that would be a better choice at Guard. I would really look at that first and if that is not the case then you start inserting the freshmen.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jun 22, 2010 19:26:10 GMT -6
I don't think there is a definite answer to this question, and to say that I'll never play a freshman on varsity is absurd. I really just want to say that I lean toward "slow playing" this issue- take it easy, and I'd rather not play the freshman up and "ruin him" early.
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Post by buck42 on Jun 24, 2010 8:40:55 GMT -6
Freshman are such a fragile thing...as many have said their psychy (sp) soo fragile some think they want to play varsity, some think "hey that would be cool" others are hell no...
I appreciate you guys comments because as I stated earlier there are now 3 freshman that will probably be on the Varsity team this fall. One RB, WR and a TE. The RB is probably 3rd on the depth chart right now but the 2 ahead of him are starting on D. Also, in NC a kid can play JV and V in the same week if certain things are met, so he will play both more than likely. The WR is the 2nd or 3rd best WR in the program and the TE is #2...I really do not want to have to play them on Varsity but we have nothing in front of them...
How to handle it is what is tricky. I want to hold them back until we see them hit, but that is 6 weeks away and gut feeling tells me and is confirmed by my staff to make the move. Actually they told me they were ready but I waited a few more practices to have them practice with the Varsity.
This might help someone, when I notified the 3 freshman that they were going to practice with the Varsity, I made if VERY clear that you are not nessassarily on the varsity team, we just want to see you workout next to them. I hope that it will keep their emotions in check and and also allow their egos not to be crushed if we decide to play them on JV...
I agree with dcohio...if you promoted a freshman and start him and he is not ready and you have to pull him that is the coaches fault. Often we can salivate over these kids because we see a great future for them...If your gonna make that move (unless it happens because of multiple injuries) then you need to stick with him...let him take is lumps and learn how to play at the Varsity level...
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Post by coachwoodall on Jun 24, 2010 11:16:22 GMT -6
I've been in the small school (225) setting before and had to count on freshman to contribute. The key is identifying them as early as possible, and then finding a way to work the kid through the whole process (off season, wts, etc..). I think a big part of it is knowing the kid and being able to read him well. Also, if possible if you don't need him right from game 1, wait and let him get a few JV games under his belt before you throw him to the wolves.
Another thing is that you can't let the upper classmen push him around. NO WAY ABOUT. You probably will do the kid good to find him a buddy/mentor that he can talk to and will show him the ropes.
Luckily in SC we have an 8 quarter rule that allows kids to play 8 in a calender week. Before, it did no good to bring a Fr up and have him ride the pine just b/c you needed him 'just in case'. It that is the situation, then I would only bring him up if he is going to play.
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Post by cqmiller on Jun 24, 2010 11:22:22 GMT -6
Coached at a school where we dressed 20 kids for varsity and 25 kids for JV. We didn't make decisions based on grade-level because we didn't have that luxury. Anyone with physical size and ability to play and not get crushed had to play on varsity. We ended up with 2 Freshman starting at guard, 3 sophomores starting at LB, and a freshman playing corner and WR.
If you are a school of only 300 - 500 kids and you are playing other schools your size, then you are all in the same boat. You do have to coach those really young kids a little differently, but we never had a problem.
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Post by downdownkick on Jun 24, 2010 19:35:48 GMT -6
I think its something to be really careful about. I've seen kids (great athletes) play up as frosh and get a big head about it. They think "I'm already a starter," and they lose their incentive to work. Plus there can be a discipline issue, because in a few years they'll start to think that you can't do without them and they can do whatever they want.
It's a real shame to see a kid with great potential peak in his 2nd or 3rd year and peter out as a senior, but it definitely happens. I'd only do it if you're desperate, because it'll help in the short term but might hurt in the long run.
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Post by phantom on Jun 26, 2010 8:15:29 GMT -6
I think that this issue about young players thinking that they have it made and not working hard after that is only an issue if you let it become one. They do need to understand that the idea is not just to earn a starting job but to beat other teams. OK, he beat out Sammy and now he's the starter. Great. Can he beat the guy from X High School (your first scrimmage), or Y (first season game), or Z (rival)? There's always a challenge.
If he's the best guy play him.
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I teach at the Middle School, and have had them both in numerous classes and know them well (so I may be biased). They're great kids and will one day be AWESOME varsity football players, I believe that. 
