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Post by younggun10 on Jun 21, 2010 18:58:28 GMT -6
For those of you out there who have either witnessed or heard (from reliable sources of course). Who are some of the current grinders in the profession and flip it, who are some of the coaches that get in, get their work done, and get out? I'm curious to see what people have to say on this one...
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 21, 2010 19:08:12 GMT -6
Dudes that burn the midnight oil- Saban, Belichick, Todd Haley, Stoops, Bill Snyder (at least in his first run as HC), Petrino
Dudes that work hard, but delegate and have a life- Gary Pinkel, and of course Bowden and Paterno
I heard Pinkel say one time that you don't have to fall asleep by the VCR anymore because a lot of the things you used to have to do by hand is now done by computers. I just know more about him because our program has 4 kids playing there.
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Post by coachdubyah on Jun 21, 2010 19:20:55 GMT -6
2 day a week grinder for me. Monday and Tuesday are my LOONNNGG Days. Typically 16 hours. Wed. Thurs. and Fri. are cake walks. Out of the office by 6 on those days. To me it is all about time management.
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Post by hustleandheart on Jun 21, 2010 19:21:34 GMT -6
I thought I read in a Lou Holtz book that he always got home for dinner or something to that extent (maybe it was getting out of work before 8). I'll look it up now.
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Post by phantom on Jun 21, 2010 19:27:35 GMT -6
I thought I read in a Lou Holtz book that he always got home for dinner or something to that extent (maybe it was getting out of work before 8). I'll look it up now. When did his assistants get home?
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Post by hustleandheart on Jun 21, 2010 19:33:48 GMT -6
I thought I read in a Lou Holtz book that he always got home for dinner or something to that extent (maybe it was getting out of work before 8). I'll look it up now. When did his assistants get home? haha good point. Not 100% but I believe I read it in "Wins, Losses, and Lessons" by Lou Holtz, it was either about him or one of the head coaches he worked under. My apologies.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 21, 2010 19:35:11 GMT -6
I thought I read in a Lou Holtz book that he always got home for dinner or something to that extent (maybe it was getting out of work before 8). I'll look it up now. A lot of these guys will go home, eat dinner with their wife and kids, and then go back up to the office until 11pm. That's the only time they see their kids. I've heard that Stoops makes his assistants take their kids to school in the morning, get to the office about 8am, work till dinner, go home and eat with the family, then come back up until late. In Bowden's book, I think he said he didn't allow his assistants to come in before early afternoon on Sundays so they could go to church with their families.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 21, 2010 23:08:07 GMT -6
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I have no idea how some guys spend so much time on stuff. I'd say, including teaching a full 6 period schedule with one prep, that my longest days are usually 12-14 hours. In at 730, out by 8 or 9. Unless I go to a JV game to watch. Weekends are about 5-6 hrs a day during the season.
I think it's all about time management. I've known a lot of guys who spend unreal hours "at work" but don't really get a lot done. If I'm going to be there I'm there to get crap done. Time doesn't equal working. Work smarter, not longer. IMHO.
I'm sure college is a different animal.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jun 21, 2010 23:19:10 GMT -6
I agree, I think lots of coaches spend time at work without being productive, or because they feel like they need to "outwork" their opponents, or looking for gold in a coal mine for some mystical clue to victory. I work as much as I want to, but when I get the nagging suspicion I'm no longer making progress, I just put it down.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jun 22, 2010 5:36:10 GMT -6
The higher the level, the more $hit to breakdown & prepare for, the longer the hours...
I'd say I'm gone by 6pm everyday during the season...never more than 12 hours including teaching.
I agree with the above- time management is critical. A lot of people who grind at this level waste time in meetings, watching film, basically playing grab-ass & shooting the $hit, bitchin rather than fixin...all of these attributed to being unprepared.
I loved when the HC facilitates the meeting, sticks to an agenda, and doesn't ramble or let people ramble. Short & to the point...
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Post by mitch on Jun 22, 2010 11:09:45 GMT -6
At my first job we would come in at 1pm on Sundays. We would mostly read the paper and watch NFL games all afternoon, with maybe an hour or two actual preparation thrown in there.
I didn't have a family, so I didn't mind, but now-a-days I would have to revolt.
To me this is just like the OTA thread. Most guys spend all weekend at the fieldhouse b/c "everyone else is doin it", or they think spending inordinate amounts of time doing crap equals 'outworking' someone.
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Post by phantom on Jun 22, 2010 11:20:23 GMT -6
At my first job we would come in at 1pm on Sundays. We would mostly read the paper and watch NFL games all afternoon, with maybe an hour or two actual preparation thrown in there. I didn't have a family, so I didn't mind, but now-a-days I would have to revolt. To me this is just like the OTA thread. Most guys spend all weekend at the fieldhouse b/c "everyone else is doin it", or they think spending inordinate amounts of time doing crap equals 'outworking' someone. We used to meet at one of the coaches' house at 5 on Sunday. Trouble was he lived with his mom (he was just out of school) and she insisted on cooking us a huge sit-down dinner every week. So we'd spend an hour stuffing our pie-holes then be more interested in a nap than in breaking down film. So, we moved to another coach's apartment. He was a single guy who lived at the beach. Beer became invloved. No better. No we meet at the school and coordinators have already done breakdowns and preliminary game planning. Result- better work in half the time.
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Post by blb on Jun 22, 2010 11:29:46 GMT -6
The older I get the less use for meetings I have, so we keep them to a bare minimum.
We meet from 3-5 pm Sundays (less if we get done sooner). I have all the breakdown-preliminary game plan done before then. We go over that and watch trade film, then discuss anything game plan or program-wise that needs it.
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Post by kcbazooka on Jun 22, 2010 12:48:31 GMT -6
FWIW, we meet as a staff from 8-noon on Sundays - Coordinators have CD's before we leave Friday night and watch them on their own Saturday.
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Post by dubber on Jun 22, 2010 15:42:03 GMT -6
We spend 4 hours on Saturday as a staff, and the OC and I spend a couple hours Sunday night together making the script.
However, we show our kids the top 5 plays we need to stop, GL and 3rd down tendencies (for O and D), and then defensive alignment to 2x2 and 3x1.
That's all the kids can handle, and at this level, that is all we as a staff can handle.
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Post by Luther Van Dam on Jun 23, 2010 7:45:18 GMT -6
I have heard similar things about Leavitt- I have even heard that while the assistants were working (or waiting) until midnight, Leavitt was often asleep in his office.
Our staff works a lot, but it has really paid off for us. We have a 6am staff mtg before school, followed by 7am install with the players during the season. We get out of practice by 6:30 and are often home by 7. Saturdays we work 7-4ish watching/grading the game from Friday and film breakdown. We sometimes meet 2-4ish on Sunday if there is some unfinished business. Film guys often stay longer on Sunday to finish cut-ups and data input on APEX.
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Post by phantom on Jun 23, 2010 8:13:27 GMT -6
I happened to read Saban's article in the 2010 COY Manual. Toward the end he says,
"A lot of people think I work all night like Bill Belichek. I leave the office by 10:00. I'm in bed at 11:00 and I'm in te office at 6:00".
See, these guys do take time to stop and smell the roses.
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Post by jdprep42 on Jun 23, 2010 10:47:50 GMT -6
I know Jim Grobe is one of the guys who really stresses having his assistants get to to dinner with their families, especially during spring ball. It was either him or one of his assistants who was quoted saying something like...you can choose what time you get up in the morning but you cant choose when your kids go to bed. Thought that was a cool view on it.
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Post by younggun10 on Jun 23, 2010 19:38:42 GMT -6
Great thread guys. Some coaches that I have heard that grind like machines: Parcells, Belichick, Saban, Leavit, Bill Snyder, Tedford at Cal, Urban Meyer.
The opposite: Paul Johnson, Gary Pinkel, Mike Leach, Dave Christensen at Wyoming, those are the coaches I have heard of anyway.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Jun 24, 2010 6:46:13 GMT -6
Single A school + 1 coach on staff who also coaches other sports + a few community coaches + no custodial support + limited maintenance support + no planning period + teaching English = 120-130 hours a week during the season, 5,000+ hours per year.
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Post by Juliath on Jun 26, 2010 16:01:57 GMT -6
While Holmgren was with the Packers, they worked an 8-6 schedule during the season. Get in, get it done, get out. The idea was if pros can't prepare for a game in 40 hours time, you don't know what you're doing.
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Post by phantom on Jun 26, 2010 19:05:46 GMT -6
I saw an NFL Films show comparing the hours worked by modern NFL coaches with those worked by guys like Lombardi and Chuck Noll. They asked an old Steeler- Andy Russell, I think- what Noll would think about these hours. He said, "He'd be amazed that there were people so inefficient that they couldn't get done in a working day".
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 26, 2010 22:02:28 GMT -6
I saw an NFL Films show comparing the hours worked by modern NFL coaches with those worked by guys like Lombardi and Chuck Noll. They asked an old Steeler- Andy Russell, I think- what Noll would think about these hours. He said, "He'd be amazed that there were people so inefficient that they couldn't get done in a working day". Well, you gotta Twitter and Facebook and all those really important things you know.
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Post by Luther Van Dam on Jun 26, 2010 23:54:52 GMT -6
Great quote I came across in Saban's "How Good Do You Want To Be?":
"You can always do more, but I've found 100 hours a week is enough."
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Post by airmale on Jun 27, 2010 5:38:58 GMT -6
Read somewhere Spurrier gets it done in a work day. Says if you can't get it done in a regular work day, then you can't get it done. Makes assistants go home at noon on Fridays. Stuff like that.
I worry about top 5 plays they run, and how they adjust to our formations. After that, who are their studs, and what type of team are they: Blitzers, Zoners, Man Cov, option, wing t, etc... Don't need mush more at the HS level.
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Post by coachks on Jun 27, 2010 22:44:56 GMT -6
The higher the level, the more $hit to breakdown & prepare for, the longer the hours... I'd say I'm gone by 6pm everyday during the season...never more than 12 hours including teaching. I agree with the above- time management is critical. A lot of people who grind at this level waste time in meetings, watching film, basically playing grab-ass & shooting the $hit, bitchin rather than fixin...all of these attributed to being unprepared. I loved when the HC facilitates the meeting, sticks to an agenda, and doesn't ramble or let people ramble. Short & to the point... Disagree with that opening statement. Regardless if it's on friday night or monday night, there are only x number of plays. I think the typical pro/college game is around 130 plays...the average high school game was around 110 (in the previous thread on the topic). While 20 extra plays is a decent chunk of time, I don't think it accounts for 20+ hours of work. Maybe an extra hour? More importantly, the quality of film is vastly different. Endzone shots, on clear cameras, operated by professionals, organized by professionals into perfect cutups. I get wide screen sideline shots from the top of the bleachers shot by a good-intentioned parent. We spent a good chunk of film breakdown figuring out if a player is a 2...3....4..in the game, playing an inside shade ect. That's before trying to figure out his job (was that a slant? It's hard to tell from the blimp view). A lot of high school coaches have a position on both sides of the ball, so they have to watch every snap of the game. Another non-issue at higher level. Let alone QB, TE, ILB/OLB and Safeties/Corners coaches (oh, and coordinators who don't coach a position). And the reality that the NFL is a homogenous league. You get a little zone and a little power. No Wing-T, no Double Wing, No Veer. You aren't going to see shotgun read option followed by flexbone followed by Power-T. We get two games from league opponents, if both our opponents games were against full house teams, we are SoL.
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Post by dirtybird13 on Jun 28, 2010 9:55:36 GMT -6
A note about the NFL though, and I would assume college works this way... in high school you may only be breaking down 2-3 tapes of your opponent (the region I coach in exchanges your most recent 3 games). In the NFL you get every game they have played up this point in their season via overnight mail. When you arrive Monday you have an entire season worth waiting on you. Granted there is always a filtering process (IE more focus on how they played against a 3-4 if you run one etc.), but there is a lot more breaking down to do when you have 14 games from THIS season to go through. Still, as has been mentioned, the camera work is ... to state the obvious, professional.
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Post by phantom on Jun 28, 2010 10:39:40 GMT -6
In the NFL it's the "arms race" thing again. Steve Spurrier failed in the NFL and there's a perception that work ethic had a lot to do with it. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter. NFL people believe it and so if they're not working until 2 AM that's why they lost. There may be many NFL coaches who secretly hope that a 9-5 guy wins the Super Bowl some year.
The depth that NFL coaches research video is unbelievable. Mike Lombardi of the National Football Post wrote that his duties included charting the opposing QBs mannerisms, including the position of his head when the ball is going to be snapped. Jim Hermann of the Giants showed us some tendencies that they look at which was stuff like "First Down After A Twenty Yard Gain.".
Technology hasn't made their lives easier. It's just made more info available, which means that have more and more digging to do.
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Post by coachks on Jun 28, 2010 13:51:48 GMT -6
I'll also mention that "grinding" extremes in college make a lot more sense to me because of recruiting. You look at 50-60 hour a week working on an opponent, but you still need to breakdown recruits, place calls, make visits ect. I can understand that a lot more than the NFL guys charting facial expressions after being by a player <260 pounds.
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Post by warriorhog51 on Jun 28, 2010 15:52:18 GMT -6
I think the number of hours you work in a week tends to be correlated to your ability to work effeciently. Unless you have to do everything from game planning to painting the field, then you are s.o.l either way. I think that the college guys that work rediculous hours either don't work effeciently, or are chasing after details that may or may not make a difference. The NFL, from what I know, loves chasing those little things. They are a whole different animal, so I am going to leave them out of the discussion. A few big time college programs can probably be put in the same category. I am a firm believer in get your work done and get the heck home. Don't go chasing ghosts if you don't have to. I don't concern myself too much with the "what if's." I want to know what they run. I will look for some tip-offs like the OL's stance, splits, odd alignments, etc., but I don't waste a lot of time looking for things that may or may not be there. Also, a big think that I like to do is to take work home with me. I am lucky enough to have a laptop for work, and have our film software on it. I know that it may take me a little longer to do at home, but at least I am at home and can give my wife some attention. I know its not quality time with just her and I, but at least I am there.
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