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Post by mrdeca55 on Jun 1, 2010 18:49:45 GMT -6
Here is the situation:
I coach at a school that has had some decent success the last 4 years. We have had a few players who were great for us, but for some reason did not have "it" to earn big time scholarships ("it" seems to be height & 40 time).
-I understand that a lot of parents dream about their children being big time college athletes. I know that as coaches, we should never sell a kid short (no pun intended), but when a Defensive Lineman is 5'11" 200 LBs and his parents are wondering how we are going to get this kid a scholarship, what can you say that won't get their feelings hurt and won't turn the kid into a sour anti-team player? Other kid we had played JV for 3 years and his parents wondered why we didn't have film on him to send out to colleges. At what point do you tell a parent the truth- that their child's best chance at earning a scholarship is by studying real hard and getting good test scores.
-Is it unethical to sell a player to a college, knowing that the kid is nowhere near as good as his highlight tape looked? When a recruiter comes in and asks the kid if he runs a 10.7 100-meter, and the kid is able to say he doesn't know because he didn't run track that year (probably about an 11.5 guy), should the coach speak up and let the truth be known, even if it might cost his player a scholarship?
-Long-term risks of sending out "suspect" talent. Will college recruiters keep coming back if you continuously sell kids who aren't very good and who don't last long? I know of one situation where a buddy who is a DC at a 1AA school told me after 3 players we sent to him were all back home after 2 years, that he could not recruit my school anymore. Anyone else run into something like this?
-Is a coach hired to win games or to help players get recruited?
-What should coaches tell players who are offered early by C+ school, but are hoping that they will get offered by B+ or A school? (Had two great HS players miss out on full rides because they didn't want to give their word and back out on it).
Hopefully this will get some good conversation going. My only hope is that coaches be real with their responses. I do not want any clinic talk. I will not judge someone and call them a bad coach if they admit that their little 5'9" 150 lb CB who runs a 5.1 40 does not have what it takes to play at the Division 1 level.
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Post by struceri on Jun 1, 2010 19:42:01 GMT -6
its been my experience that if you aren't truthful to college coaches when they come around they probably won't when you have a kid who is worthy of it. Be upfront at the beginning of the season that you will coach their kids the best you can and prepare them the best you can. If college football is something they and their kids want then help them in that process but don't promise them anything and be upfront an honest with them. I think almost every high school kid feels like they can play "big time" college football so be honest with them even if they don't like it at first they will respect you more.
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Post by ajreaper on Jun 1, 2010 19:47:57 GMT -6
Get them film and transcripts and answer their questions truthfully- you don't decide who gets a scholly the colleges do. You'll gain nothing by lying or over stating the facts as they'll see you for what you are about 2 minutes into the first game tape or hi-lite they watch.
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Post by leighty on Jun 1, 2010 19:51:26 GMT -6
I've never been a head coach, so I've had very limited experience with the recruiting process, but I'm bored, so I'll offer up my opinions. (You English majors try diagramming that sentence.)
1. Print out the roster of the local state college, and ask mom and dad if their kid fits that mold. A 5'11'' 200 lb kid can play defensive line in college, but it won't be at Florida State. As for the JV kid, I've been in the office when the head coach had the "your kid's just not good enough" talk with a mom. It was awkward as hell, but in the end, the mom thanked the coach for being honest.
2. In the interest of self-preservation, you need to be honest with college coaches. Everytime you sell a college on a kid, and the kid doesn't pan out, it's your credibility that takes a hit.
3. I think you answered your own question with the anecdote you provided.
4. Both and a lot more
5. Given the way colleges evaluate talent these days, if a kid hasn't been offered by an A school by the end of his junior year, he's probably not going to be offered by an A school. What's the saying? "A bird in hand..." If he does end up getting offered by a better school, I don't have a problem with the kid switching his commitment.
I understand the whole "keep your word" argument, but the fact of the matter is a school will over offer and have no problem telling the kid they are no longer honoring their scholarship offer.
I know of a kid who was offered by East Carolina as a wide receiver. Kid calls ECU to commit about halfway through his senior season and is told they had already received commitments from the max number of receivers they were taking that year. Kid ended up at App. State.
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Post by seagull73 on Jun 1, 2010 19:51:56 GMT -6
1. Tell the parents and player ASAP that their expectations are unrealistic. The problem wont get better with time.
2. I do not and will not lie about a player. I tell colleges the good, the bad & the ugly. They are going to find out any way. Once you build a relationship your word will mean a lot more.
3. A coach is not hired to get kids recruited or win games. They are hired to develop a program that allows the players to grow as men. Sometimes it leads to wins and scholarships but you don't need to play in college to make high school football a worth while experience. The large majority of your players will be done after high school. The current culture of "get exposure" will be what runs me out of coaching. I've coached over 10 years and have only coached 5 scholarship players (1 D1, 2 1AA, 2 D2) and they were all this year! It just isn't as easy as everyone thinks.
4. I tell players their only loyalty in the recruiting process is to themselves. Any college will take an offer off the table is they think they found a better player to take it. If you think you found a better college do what's right for you.
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Post by 42falcon on Jun 1, 2010 22:47:17 GMT -6
Got to be honest with the recruiter. The worst thing you can do is beef the kid up to be more than he is. The kid goes out to the school and ends up at home: no football and no education. In the end you helped no one.
The D1 guys are special they just are, not special as in better than all the kids you have but special as in you have coached for 10 years at a big program and this kid is the best you have ever seen.
In Canada where I coach I have had 11 DB's graduate over 3 seasons 7 of them have been able to play post secondary ball out of that group only one has been highly recruited others made it because there was space and they were pretty decent. The one being recruited this year everyone wants problem is...... he is good but there are a lot of questions yet to be answered. He is the best we have had but not the best we will see. I say this because we have a grade 9 who started for us this season who is going to be lights out better than any kid we have ever had. He will not be able to play in the NCAA or even a D2 maybe NAIA if he is lucky. But we tell our parent group that right from day 1. We have to. I had a kid 2 years ago come to me with letters from NCAA schools he said what do you think? My response was simple you are to short, to fat to slow and not agressive enough. He did not belive me showed up this season at a practice thanking me for being honest he is playing Junior ball and dressed for a few home games last year. Great kid bad expectations
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Post by mrdeca55 on Jun 2, 2010 3:17:22 GMT -6
Great stuff so far guys!
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Post by struceri on Jun 2, 2010 7:46:41 GMT -6
a coach at a local school had some players transfer from his school because of promsing the kids' older brothers some things that would happen with college recruiting that never materialized. The parents were upset and the kids transfered and as well as their younger brothers who are pretty good athletes.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Jun 2, 2010 8:08:51 GMT -6
DC makes a lot of good points. Especially the one about camps. Send them with their parents to one of those one day combine camps at a big school where 4 or 500 kids show up. Reality sets in pretty quick after that.
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Post by gdn56 on Jun 2, 2010 8:49:45 GMT -6
Great Thread. We have a couple of kids right now who are gonna be D3 or NAIA types, but from what I gather they are not interested in playing unless its at the big time scholarship level....any advice on how to get those kids to view their prospects a bit more realistically? I do like the take the kids to a camp argument.
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Post by indian1 on Jun 2, 2010 8:53:28 GMT -6
I think a major problem with the recruiting thing is that people think coaches can "get" there son a scholarship. The boy gets the scholarship. The coach can't "get" him anything. Thats the first thing I tell my players and parents regarding recruiting. I also then tell them what steps to take if THE PLAYER is interested in playing college ball. Schedule the right classes, take the ACT early and often. Go to camps. Send out video, and let the COLLEGE COACHES decide what level the kid is. I tell our guys that if they haven't had any contacts with a big school by the end of their Jr. year they probably aren't going to get any. Just the way it is.
When dealing with college coaches I'm BRUTALLY honest, and they appreciate it. I have a kid some D-I guys have come in to see. They take one look at him, smile at me and say "boy, he really is 6'5'' isn't he". They always say how many times they go to see a kid who is 6' 5'' and find out he's really 6'3''. Those coaches really appreciate your honesty, and you will develop good relationships with them. Tell them the whole truth. Get everything on the table, good bad and ugly and let the chips fall where they may. Don't be afraid to talk about the kid's weaknesses or other potential issues. Remember you don't get the kid the scholarship, he does.
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Post by coachbrek on Jun 2, 2010 9:00:49 GMT -6
High School coaches have very little to do with getting a kid recruited. The top players are already on the coaches radar.
I have been in college film rooms watching high-light tapes that high school coaches have sent in on their players, Speed does not lie on film, college coaches get some real chuckles out of some of those tapes.
They also get a real chuckle, or are pi55ed when a coach or player lies on their recruiting questioner, such as their 40 time.
It is very seldom that a college caliber player flies under the radar.
The only time a high school coach makes a huge difference in getting a kid scholarship is providing the college coaches with the recruits attitude, character, and work ethic, they already know about his ability and his grades.
Another area where players, parents, and sometimes high school coaches come up short is the hard working kid who worships the game of football, he lives in the weight room, and plays his guts out in practice and games but he is that 5'11" 200lb d-lineman, who wants to play at the next level.
If that kid wants to play and contribute, help him get a shot at a Div 2 or NAIA school, they still give scholarships, in no way does it diminish your college experience.
It is true that college programs will not give you much time if you are a flake or you send them a flake.
It is very frustrating to spend the time and resources on a kid who ends up being a dud.
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Post by blb on Jun 2, 2010 9:10:33 GMT -6
I tell them at our Parents' Meeting (next Monday) what colleges are looking for, that I will do whatever I can to help them in the process, but that Lloyd Carr never asked me to whom he should offer scholarships.
I do have a little cred - but not much - with parents because I coached CFB for six years and have been on other side of recruiting.
Combines and college camps can really open kids' eyes. They don't realize that there are 620 HS football teams in our state and every one of them has a best WR, DT, etc. And there's something like 30 All-Conference teams, too.
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Post by wingtol on Jun 2, 2010 9:15:44 GMT -6
DC makes a lot of good points. Especially the one about camps. Send them with their parents to one of those one day combine camps at a big school where 4 or 500 kids show up. Reality sets in pretty quick after that. Isn't that the truth! We are lucky enough to have a local D-2 college affiliated with our HS so we use their filed for workouts a lot in the spring and summer. The college has played in two of the best D-2 conferences the last few years (GLIAC and PSAC) so they have played some teams with talent. Anyways we were having some spring drills and a couple colleges guys were conditioning on the other end of the field. As one of them ran by, about 6' 230ish a kid said "dang look at the size of that guy wonder what he plays" I told him that's their new tailback. The kids mouths were hanging open, esp. our RB who thinks he should be getting D-1 offers. Reality sets in quick when kids see that up close and personal. |
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Post by coachbrek on Jun 2, 2010 9:19:04 GMT -6
Great Thread. We have a couple of kids right now who are gonna be D3 or NAIA types, but from what I gather they are not interested in playing unless its at the big time scholarship level....any advice on how to get those kids to view their prospects a bit more realistically? I do like the take the kids to a camp argument. I don't know what the stigma is with kids and parents who only want to play big time ball. I guess it's what they see on TV and it's all they know about college football. You need to get those players on campus, you need to get them to a game, they need to meet the staff, and see the facilities. Get in the coaches ear, if it's a kid they want they will recruit him. They will get his parents on campus and sell the program to the family, they do have some money but it's the lure of playing and contributing that gets the kids at a smaller school. Not to mention the great education and college experience they will get. |
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Post by blb on Jun 2, 2010 9:25:28 GMT -6
Most kids (and parents) have no idea how different CFB is, how difficult it is, or how good the level of play is below D-IA/FCS, BCS whatever they're calling it today.
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Post by RENO6 on Jun 2, 2010 9:48:59 GMT -6
You know what I've always thought is funny, the saying, "be realistic."
I've always thought that nothing is realistic when making predictions about what will happen in the future. You can make a prediction that your dreams will come true or you can make a prediction that you will fall short.
Biggest thing is that it's each individual's right to make their own prediction and no right for anyone else to say, "be realistic."
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Post by phantom on Jun 2, 2010 9:55:20 GMT -6
You know what I've always thought is funny, the saying, "be realistic." I've always thought that nothing is realistic when making predictions about what will happen in the future. You can make a prediction that your dreams will come true or you can make a prediction that you will fall short. Biggest thing is that it's each individual's right to make their own prediction and no right for anyone else to say, "be realistic." Well, if you're a 5'11" 200 lb. DE who's planning on a football scholarship to pay for college you'd better have a Plan B. |
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Post by leighty on Jun 2, 2010 9:57:46 GMT -6
You know what I've always thought is funny, the saying, "be realistic." I've always thought that nothing is realistic when making predictions about what will happen in the future. You can make a prediction that your dreams will come true or you can make a prediction that you will fall short. Biggest thing is that it's each individual's right to make their own prediction and no right for anyone else to say, "be realistic." Well, if you're a 5'11" 200 lb. DE who's planning on a football scholarship to pay for college you'd better have a Plan B. Exactly. You can't will yourself another 4 inches. |
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Post by blb on Jun 2, 2010 9:58:42 GMT -6
You know what I've always thought is funny, the saying, "be realistic." I've always thought that nothing is realistic when making predictions about what will happen in the future. You can make a prediction that your dreams will come true or you can make a prediction that you will fall short. Biggest thing is that it's each individual's right to make their own prediction and no right for anyone else to say, "be realistic." Well, if you're a 5'11" 200 lb. DE who's planning on a football scholarship to pay for college you'd better have a Plan B. Wish I had a dollar for everytime I heard "Well, he's only 5-9, 185, but he's a great kid and plays really hard" when I was recruiting. |
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hawke
Sophomore Member
Posts: 209
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Post by hawke on Jun 2, 2010 10:32:31 GMT -6
Be upfront with both parties and everyone will be better off. If there is a college near-by see if you can take the PARENT(S) through the locker room while the players are dressing. On TV they all look the same. Even from the stands to most but seeing them in the locker room getting dress brings reality quite quickly. In my 47 years I have been criticized numerous times for not playing certain kids or not getting others scholarships. My answer was (1) your son wasn't as good as the young man in front of him and we can view tapes (film) if you wish and I will show you or (2) if I gave out the scholarships my 2 sons would have had them. I was always taught,especially by my college coach, "the eye in the sky don't lie."
Hawke
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Post by coachbrek on Jun 2, 2010 12:32:16 GMT -6
The local college here got a kid who was an all state qb his jr and sr. years and was an all state receiver his so. year.
I asked the coach who recruited him what his 40 time was.
His answer to me was I don't care, his field vision and reaction was so good it really did not matter .
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Post by gunrun on Jun 2, 2010 18:10:50 GMT -6
My name, honesty, integrity is much more important than any one kid. My loyalty is not to any one player, it is to our program and all kids who come through it, current player and FUTURE players. Very well put. Proverbs 22:1 says that a good name/reputation is better than great riches, or in this case, better than getting one kid a scholarship. In the long run, your integrity will give you the opportunity to help many future players get scholarships. |
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Post by coachjd on Jun 2, 2010 20:27:17 GMT -6
I tell the recruiters my honest opinion of our kids. If a kid wants to play college football I will send out dvd's for the kid and have him return the questionaire. If the college guys don't like him they don't call. You did everything you could for the kid, plus you did not put your reputation on the line by selling the college coach a kid who cannot play. Its there job to evaluate kids, not ours. Like someone posted earlier, do our job of coaching all the kids up, get them better and let everything else take care of itself.
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Post by mitch on Jun 4, 2010 20:43:07 GMT -6
I had a kid that OK State was all over last year. There coach came in on game day (week 2) and wanted to look at week 1 film on him. Never asked any times, weight, etc. on the kid.
Looked at film, stayed around and watched him play that night, and offered him the next week.
Any 'measurables'' were never brought up. He got a full scholarship.
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