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Post by swarm2ball on May 21, 2010 16:11:27 GMT -6
Hey fellas, long time no thread.
I am currently a DC at a brand new school (10 months old) with the first season under our belts. What a ride......We are going to have a staff meeting to discuss the future path of our program. I would like to hear what others would do.
I need to provide you a good deal of info to paint a picture. Sorry!
We played a varsity schedule with grades 9-11 in the building. In order to make a load of money for the entire athletic program we played the area schools (which fed into our school), getting our butts handed to us as they were all in larger classifications. The first three weeks of our nonconference schedule was brutal. Conference play was not much better.
We played many kids on varsity who should not have been playing JV, but we were able to see who were our players and who weren't. We brought up 3 of our top freshman players one game and we won. We knew we could compete beacuse they were a starter program the year before. In the end (from JV/Varsity perspective), 95% of our better players were our 9th and 10th graders.
Our middle school programs were great....all winning season. I actually work in the middle school and I am excited because these kids have a bit of swagger.
MY QUESTION:
If you were in charge, would you move up all that can help you compete in the league this year to gain varsity expereince....OR would you try to keep as many 9th and 10th graders down on JV to learn how to WIN and get some swagger? Cause I know they will do so.
(note: we have three rising 10th graders who will def. be varsity guys. The rest of the rising 10th graders are the question, with some incoming freshman who will compete)
The youngin's we could bring up may win us a couple/several games this year. We are still not there yet. But the score will not be 70-6 as was several times last year.
I guess I am on the side of gaining confidence, learning how to win and getting a swagger. I do not know if it comes from my daily interactions with the 8th graders, but they would tell me every Monday "Coach, I need to be on the team. I could beat out some of those players!" Its great to see. But, patience is not easy for me either.
Just like to hear your thoughts!
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Post by coachguy83 on May 21, 2010 16:22:54 GMT -6
If the young kids can play varsity ball they play varsity ball. If they are just going to stand on the sideline looking pretty I would keep them down playing JV. I came from a small program where the coaches had to make this decision every year and I think the answer is your best players have to play Varsity, however if you can get some of them into a few JV games that might help with their confidence.
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nels85
Freshmen Member
Posts: 70
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Post by nels85 on May 21, 2010 20:45:50 GMT -6
i agree 100% with Coachguy83. If they can compete their way in and are honestly the best player at their position, they should play varsity. Period. If they need some time before they are at that point then don't promote them, but I definately think it should all be on an individual basis.
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Post by op4shadow on May 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -6
one thing to think about, you don't want those young guys to move up and get pounded all season, possibly resulting in lack of confidence moving on. i'm neither for or against moving kids up, but i am all about making sure they understand what they're walking into...they need to know that they'll see talent at the higher level that they are not used to going against. they must know they will wind up licking their wounds from time to time do to their age/lack of experience. don't think there is a wrong answer here, you just need to be careful with your decision IMO.
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Post by swarm2ball on May 22, 2010 19:14:31 GMT -6
If the young kids can play varsity ball they play varsity ball. If they are just going to stand on the sideline looking pretty I would keep them down playing JV. What is your definition of playing varsity ball? Is it the ability to beat out everyone else at their position on your own team or is it the ability to compete against our varsity opponents? In the meantime since I posted, I was flipping through TV channels and there was a special on the civil war (local stuff). It sparked a thought in my mind. What if I looked at this as a war. A war that I know is not going to be won next year, but a war that could take several years. If I was marching my troops near enemy terriotries, how will I dispatch my units? I have one to my East that could very easily destroy my unit, no matter who I send out. But the one to the West I can definitely defeat with much less worry. Do I want to send out my best against our strongest competition, knowing I will more than likely be defeated.....or send my best at my weakest, build confidence, swagger, peer leadership, ect., and then come around in the future against the strongest opponent? |
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nels85
Freshmen Member
Posts: 70
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Post by nels85 on May 22, 2010 23:13:15 GMT -6
QOUTE "Do I want to send out my best against our strongest competition, knowing I will more than likely be defeated.....or send my best at my weakest, build confidence, swagger, peer leadership, ect., and then come around in the future against the strongest opponent?"
so you are basically conceeding a defeat before the season is even underway. Thats not the right attitude and is poison if the team catches on. If you try your damndest to win every single game you have a chance to win every game. If you are playing with the mindset that you are gonna lose you most certainly will. Then, the team learns that when the odds seem insurmountable, just fold up. Bad football logic and bad life logic. I'm not hating, thats just my take.
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Post by swarm2ball on May 23, 2010 6:21:26 GMT -6
Maybe the term destroyed is a bit far....but I know where we need to be and I can be honest enough to know we are not quite there yet. My last program, we contended every year, always won the divison and went into the state playoffs, and I had that special feeling after spring/summer drills. We currently have a good way to go in teaching the game football. Just a matter of fact the program is in.
The idea of this thread is how do we strategically place our players to be in the best position for our program top be successful in the future.
I believe op4shadow has a good point and in the same ballpark of thought as me. My goal is to look out for the program and the players.
Anybody in starter programs (last three years or so) that can chime in with the others?
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Post by blackknight on May 23, 2010 11:53:26 GMT -6
Actually, I think that assuming every game is winnable is ridiculous. As football coaches we constantly compare our situation to war, quote from the "Art of War", etc. Any good general would avoid contact with an enemy that can overwhelm.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 23, 2010 12:00:37 GMT -6
Actually, I think that assuming every game is winnable is ridiculous. . I would agree with this statement. Actually it is one of the tougher things that coaches have to deal with. |
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Post by coachguy83 on May 23, 2010 23:50:54 GMT -6
If the young kids can play varsity ball they play varsity ball. If they are just going to stand on the sideline looking pretty I would keep them down playing JV. What is your definition of playing varsity ball? Is it the ability to beat out everyone else at their position on your own team or is it the ability to compete against our varsity opponents? You have to put your best 11 on the field regardless of what grade they are in because you have to try and win every game. I think you also need your best back ups dressing on Friday night where they are one play away from getting into the game and can even give you some help on special teams. I just don't like the idea of holding back kids so that you have a really good JV or Frosh team. I have seen way too many times schools that have really good JV and Frosh teams that never do anything at the Varsity level. Yes you are going to take your lumps. You are literally playing boys agaisnt men in some situations. It is up to you to keep your players positive and as much as I hate to say it take away moral victories. |
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nels85
Freshmen Member
Posts: 70
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Post by nels85 on May 24, 2010 0:20:01 GMT -6
Actually, I think that assuming every game is winnable is ridiculous. As football coaches we constantly compare our situation to war, quote from the "Art of War", etc. Any good general would avoid contact with an enemy that can overwhelm. Obviously as coaches there are time when we feel like we will have to be 100% perfect or we'll lose. But tell me how one would go about "avoiding contact" with a team that is on your schedule? Pop the tires on the bus so you don't have to go to the game? Call in a bomb threat to the stadium? Bring the golf team to the stadium instead and insist you must have gotten confused? They are on your schedule....period. Why not trying to win. If every underdog never tried to win football would be a boring sport. But thats just my take. And as far as the Sun Tzu, Art of War thing...each man is free to subscribe to his own philosophy. And while similiarities in tactics and strategy may exist...football is not war. And war is not football. Football is football...and it is important enough to me that it stands tall on its own merit, without having to be mentally transformed into a "war". Studying Sun Tzu as an important part of your football coaching development is reaching a little far. Like studying Scottish history in an effort to help your golf game. |
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Post by lassen on May 24, 2010 1:01:38 GMT -6
What is your definition of playing varsity ball? Is it the ability to beat out everyone else at their position on your own team or is it the ability to compete against our varsity opponents? You have to put your best 11 on the field regardless of what grade they are in because you have to try and win every game. I think you also need your best back ups dressing on Friday night where they are one play away from getting into the game and can even give you some help on special teams. I agree to some extent. The best 11 should always be on the field regardless. But concerning the backups, I am not with you 100%. I believe that the players grow proportionally to the amount of playing time they see. So therefore I would rather play a kid at JV, where he would be a two-way starter, than a 2-plays-a-game backup on varsity. At least that is the case if you are building for the future. If you are trying to win now, bring all your best to varsity, but I don't think that's the situation coach is in |
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Post by blackknight on May 25, 2010 20:26:48 GMT -6
Not to be argumentative, but there have been many great football coaches that studied military stategy and applied the lessons learned to football. One was a guy named Bill Walsh, and I think he was a pretty good coach.
As far as avoiding contact, in the context offered, I was refering to moving up the younger players. I don't think it is defeatist to have a long term goal and save those kids from being throttled.
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nels85
Freshmen Member
Posts: 70
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Post by nels85 on May 26, 2010 10:16:41 GMT -6
I understand what you are saying BlackKnight. And i think there are good coaches on both sides of the issue. I am the type that wants to give my kids the best chance at winning this weeks game, and we can worry about next year's games next year. Either way, it is an interesting argument. Good luck either way.
P.S. I know some great coaches study and apply military theory to coaching. My point was that not every single thing in Art or War or Machiavelli or something is going to make sense when applied to the game of football. Too very different subjects with some limited similiarities.
Either way, the debate was fun. Thanks.
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Post by blackknight on May 26, 2010 17:41:27 GMT -6
nels85,
Understood. I would agree that Sun Tzu or other martial studies are not always applicable to sports.
Where I am at, JV is for sophomores. We are not allowed to play upperclassmen on the JV.
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Post by phantom on May 26, 2010 18:30:22 GMT -6
I believe that there's something to be said for keeping the young players together and developing a winning attitude. Our old HC, who retired in 2008, took over here in 1985. He inherited a perennielly horrible team with a very talented young group, which he kept at the JV level. After taking his lumps that first year we haven't had a losing season since.
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