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Post by Defcord on May 7, 2010 7:00:57 GMT -6
Let me pose my opinion with a scenario...
Say you are coaching at a school and your team is hovering around .500. About the 6th or 7th game of the season your stud player comes into your office and says coach my parents are moving out of district this weekend. "My parents said I could stay the rest of the year and finish the season or transfer schools and the other school is undefeated and has a chance to go to the State Championship. Our family met with their coach and he said I would fit right in and play and that the transfer will be cleared from day one. What should I do coach?"
Who in this room doesn't remind that kid of his loyalty and commitment to his team?
To me too often we as coaches talk a good game about dedication and loyalty to our kids and we don't follow that example.
I have no problem bettering yourself but shouldn't we stick to our commitments in the process?
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on May 7, 2010 7:07:55 GMT -6
I don't know where I stand with this guy's situation-I've rolled in January to reunite with my girlfriend [my wife now] and take on a new job in a different state...it was tough but it was a family decision and had to be done.
As far as the sick day deal- my contract is signed saying I can take 11 days, 3 of which are personal. If they don't want us to use them they wouldn't award us with them. They should do away with the whole sick/personal differentiation- does it really matter why I need a sub? No one needs to know but me and my family. If I have 40 days banked and need a few days off then I'm taking a few days. Don't ask me for a sick note/doctors excuse or any reason.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on May 7, 2010 7:13:27 GMT -6
dcohio-
you're my hero dude
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Coach Unk
Junior Member
[F4:coachdonjones]
Posts: 392
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Post by Coach Unk on May 7, 2010 7:13:58 GMT -6
That is a tough deal. Not sure what I would do if I was in his shoes. I may stay and wait it out just to not burn the bridge because you never know if it would come back to bite you. But 1500 for a week is hard to pass up.
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Post by leighty on May 7, 2010 7:14:14 GMT -6
What does anyone involved stand to gain by this guy staying three weeks?
The principal sounds like she's going to be bitter regardless of what the guy does. Meanwhile this guy's new school has someone other than the new coordinator installing the new offense or defense. Then there's a sub out there who's not making money because this guy's sticking around.
The way I see it, there's a lot more harm than good done for the sake of the sanctity of a piece of paper.
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Post by olinecoach61 on May 7, 2010 7:26:17 GMT -6
Professionalism goes both ways. If I was this principal I would fire him immediately. You make $40,000 to teach / $6,000 to coach. He's already missed at least 10 days of school for whatever reason, now he's going to take a week off? Sounds like a total jack off. I think some of you should look in the mirror and think about if you really belong in the classroom. What do you think is going on in his classroom while he takes a week off? There is no such thing as a quality substitute, a good sub just gets the class through the day.
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Post by leighty on May 7, 2010 7:29:52 GMT -6
Professionalism goes both ways. If I was this principal I would fire him immediately. You make $40,000 to teach / $6,000 to coach. He's already missed at least 10 days of school for whatever reason, now he's going to take a week off? Sounds like a total jack off. I think some of you should look in the mirror and think about if you really belong in the classroom. What do you think is going on in his classroom while he takes a week off? There is no such thing as a quality substitute, a good sub just gets the class through the day. Teacher of the Year
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Post by sandstorm on May 7, 2010 8:27:08 GMT -6
First of all... If he is taking too many days off and getting paid, don't blame him. Blame the school district for signing the contract with the teachers' union. Here if we take more than allowed we get nada. A promotion is a promotion. IF it betters yourself and your family. Go for it. If I could get paid $1500 to caoch FB for 1 week? ? SEE YOU NEXT WEEK!!! If this Administrator can't deduce the length of service from the interview, (moving to be near dying parent, kids staying in other area 300 miles away), then he/she is incompetent and should be fired. I do agree he is a heel though. I mean taking days off to be with a dying parent, spending quality time with his kids, this guy is obviously a deranged lunatic that must be locked up now for the safety of us all! (Sarcasm definely intended) Loyalty to the school?!?!?!?! My best friend just resigned from his coaching position effective immediately, (to help create a speedy hire for the program) and his teaching job effective at the end of the year. He was fired immediately! Took his keys and escorted him to the door. They are now trying to fight his unemployment! This is 2 weeks after giving him a glowing review as a teacher!! Some of us teach to coach. Some of us teach and coach. Each of us have our own reasons. But, I have never sat in an interview where teaching was not a sidebar. The teaching questions are "Oh, by the way..." Never do they say bring copies of lesson plans, or a video/powerpoint of one of your lessons. Also, if they cared about the teaching in PE they wouldn't dump 80 kids in each PE class. My last OC interview I asked about the teaching situation. I was told, "don't worry about that. We will figure it out later. Just get us in the endzone big guy." Oustanding post. Hit the nail on the head, "big guy"!
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smu92
Junior Member
Posts: 415
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Post by smu92 on May 7, 2010 8:28:27 GMT -6
That is all fine and dandy...except that I would strongly disagree with the "unethical" part. Based on a work year of around 180 or so days, he probably makes 200+ a day. Being docked 70 is nothing. Man up and tell them they can dock the full days pay. Basically, you are telling me that in this time of massive cuts, a school gave him a job that allowed him what he needed (to take care of family matters), allowed him to take a week off while not being sick (when you work 180-185 days a year, vacation days are frowned upon). Now that he no longer needs to be near his family, he craps on the school... He might have already done so with the other 5 days he took... But the importance of WHOSE athletics. And weighed against the education that happens from 8-3. Also keep in mind that it is VERY LIKELY that other candidates were up for this job. The principal chose HIM over others. Now the principal has to do it all over again. Always a crappy situation, made WORSE by the fact that this guy is basically saying "eh, look I am out of here now..." I think it gives the teacher/coach profession a little black eye, which is not a great thing at the moment since the "coach as god" position is eroding quickly as evidenced by Leach/Leavitt. What exactly does that mean? How is their education any less important? A week of spring ball 3 months prior to the season??? It is great you have your own opinion. I disagree with it in this situation. The guy teaches P.E. and with three weeks out from the end of the school year, I am sure that the students won't suffer from his absence. It is not unethical. It is buis-ness. It isn't friend-ness. If the shoe was on the other foot, and the school had to make some cuts, they would cut his throat without blinking an eye. Call a spade a spade...when a coach leaves a place to improve his life/family people always cry foul, but when a school cuts loose a coach they justify it with rhetoric. To suggest he recommend that they dock all his pay is not only ridiculous, it is illegal. The school is only out the money they have to pay the sub, why should they pocket the rest. Don't they get enough from the taxes, fund raises, private donations, ect. Cry me a river, he got a promotion. People incline and decline everyday in this great nation. Should he have not taken the job because it might cause strain on the principal? There is honor, and there is reality. This buisness is a cut throat buisness. You have got to make sure that you take care of your family and yourself. The reality of it is behind all the fake smiles and handshakes, people will cut your throat to save theirs in dire times. That is a fact. We try to "Hollywoodize" things up, but the truth is what it is...take care of you, because your the only one who will. Honestly, I don't know how it is where everyone is, but where we are from, you don't get hired because your a good algebra teacher. You get hired because you are a good football coach, that can teach algebra. Break it down, peel it away, and the bottom line is he was hired to coach football. Right or wrong, it's just the way it is. A week of spring ball is of dire importance in my opinion. You don't collect the wins when the season starts, you collect them with the work you put in up to the season starting. That week is the week he has to go in and change the mentality, change the enviroment, change the lack of work ethic, implement his philosophies & schemes, and most importantly build a connection with his players. Great debate though...enjoying it. ;D Coach, If you are going to speak so commandingly, you should learn how to spell the word " BUSINESS". I'm just saying.
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Post by sandstorm on May 7, 2010 8:29:48 GMT -6
First off, it's his own fault on 2 points: #1 for being out of days #2 for being honest and telling his current employer what he's missing the days for. (especially if the bridge is already smoking). That being said - F*** the bridge. You don't need to worry about burning bridges if you can swim. As sad as it is to say, administrators come and go. Administrators are no longer about education anyway, they are about MONEY and covering their own @$$. My 2 principals...one is a former band director and the other a PE teacher...exactly what makes them an expert on teaching math, english, science, etc.? They do that crap all the time around here. State Clinic - AD brings down professional leave forms. (I did not fill one out...I just called in sick). Every other coach filled one out, every single one of them denied. They then tried to use personal days, every single one denied (even the HC). They were then told "and if you call in sick, you'll be denied a sick day and you'll be docked." You just can't be honest with people anymore. I've learned it the hard way. Filled out bereavement when my great grandmother died. I missed the day of the funeral. I got docked a day's pay because she was not "immediate" family. It doesn't matter than she was 101, lived with my grandmother, who lived .5 miles from my parents, had sunday dinners there every sunday since I was born...no that didn't matter. So now I just take sick days. F*** em'. (and if they want a doctor's excuse, my wife works at a doctor's office...so once again...F*** em'. Heck, I call in sick months ahead of time, you'd think they would figure it out eh? But that would take common sense, which is not a trait requirement for administrators. Sorry to go off on a rant there...but anyway...my advice: F*** her, go coach. 36 weeks of english class, 10 weeks of football... indiana - first, there are rules preventing kids from transfering inseason. and second, teaching is a career, playing HS football is not a career. If you want to compare the loyalties, then you should compare apples to apples and compare the teaching profession to professional football players. This isn't a loyalty situation, it's a business decision. Yeah, this might be the post of the year. Nice work!!!
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Post by flexoption91 on May 7, 2010 8:40:37 GMT -6
First off, it's his own fault on 2 points: #1 for being out of days #2 for being honest and telling his current employer what he's missing the days for. (especially if the bridge is already smoking). That being said - F*** the bridge. You don't need to worry about burning bridges if you can swim. As sad as it is to say, administrators come and go. Administrators are no longer about education anyway, they are about MONEY and covering their own @$$. My 2 principals...one is a former band director and the other a PE teacher...exactly what makes them an expert on teaching math, english, science, etc.? They do that crap all the time around here. State Clinic - AD brings down professional leave forms. (I did not fill one out...I just called in sick). Every other coach filled one out, every single one of them denied. They then tried to use personal days, every single one denied (even the HC). They were then told "and if you call in sick, you'll be denied a sick day and you'll be docked." You just can't be honest with people anymore. I've learned it the hard way. Filled out bereavement when my great grandmother died. I missed the day of the funeral. I got docked a day's pay because she was not "immediate" family. It doesn't matter than she was 101, lived with my grandmother, who lived .5 miles from my parents, had sunday dinners there every sunday since I was born...no that didn't matter. So now I just take sick days. F*** em'. (and if they want a doctor's excuse, my wife works at a doctor's office...so once again...F*** em'. Heck, I call in sick months ahead of time, you'd think they would figure it out eh? But that would take common sense, which is not a trait requirement for administrators. Sorry to go off on a rant there...but anyway...my advice: F*** her, go coach. 36 weeks of english class, 10 weeks of football... indiana - first, there are rules preventing kids from transfering inseason. and second, teaching is a career, playing HS football is not a career. If you want to compare the loyalties, then you should compare apples to apples and compare the teaching profession to professional football players. This isn't a loyalty situation, it's a business decision. I get everything you are saying and do much of the same stuff. I do not mess with professional forms or personal forms, I just take a sick day. The only thing I would be worried about is the vindictive nature of some of these administrators. You get a female administrator drunk on power and on the rag, katy-bar the door boys all hell is about to break loose!
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Post by Defcord on May 7, 2010 8:50:33 GMT -6
indiana - first, there are rules preventing kids from transfering inseason. and second, teaching is a career, playing HS football is not a career. If you want to compare the loyalties, then you should compare apples to apples and compare the teaching profession to professional football players. This isn't a loyalty situation, it's a business decision.[/quote]
I understand that there are rules it was a hypothetical situation. I am just saying that we preach one thing and live another in too many situations. I did not compare it to pro football because we are not talking about professional football. I don't care what this guy does but if he talks commitment to kids he is full of crap.
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Post by sandstorm on May 7, 2010 9:23:48 GMT -6
indiana - first, there are rules preventing kids from transfering inseason. and second, teaching is a career, playing HS football is not a career. If you want to compare the loyalties, then you should compare apples to apples and compare the teaching profession to professional football players. This isn't a loyalty situation, it's a business decision. I understand that there are rules it was a hypothetical situation. I am just saying that we preach one thing and live another in too many situations. I did not compare it to pro football because we are not talking about professional football. I don't care what this guy does but if he talks commitment to kids he is full of crap. [/quote] So is Brian Kelly full of crap too? How about Lou Holtz? How about Jimmy Johnson? Successful people move on, deal with it. Obviously he is doing something right, or he wouldn't keep progressing in his career. I am happy for him. He will buy the first round, finally. I just want to say this...I love this profession. There are some very passionate people in it, and even though I don't agree with what some of you say, I respect your opinion.
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Post by olinecoach61 on May 7, 2010 9:33:17 GMT -6
Professionalism goes both ways. If I was this principal I would fire him immediately. You make $40,000 to teach / $6,000 to coach. He's already missed at least 10 days of school for whatever reason, now he's going to take a week off? Sounds like a total jack off. I think some of you should look in the mirror and think about if you really belong in the classroom. What do you think is going on in his classroom while he takes a week off? There is no such thing as a quality substitute, a good sub just gets the class through the day. Teacher of the Year Wow, thanks for your intelligent insight into this debate.
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Post by flexoption91 on May 7, 2010 9:59:53 GMT -6
indiana - first, there are rules preventing kids from transfering inseason. and second, teaching is a career, playing HS football is not a career. If you want to compare the loyalties, then you should compare apples to apples and compare the teaching profession to professional football players. This isn't a loyalty situation, it's a business decision. I understand that there are rules it was a hypothetical situation. I am just saying that we preach one thing and live another in too many situations. I did not compare it to pro football because we are not talking about professional football. I don't care what this guy does but if he talks commitment to kids he is full of crap. So is Brian Kelly full of crap too? How about Lou Holtz? How about Jimmy Johnson? Successful people move on, deal with it. Obviously he is doing something right, or he wouldn't keep progressing in his career. I am happy for him. He will buy the first round, finally. I just want to say this...I love this profession. There are some very passionate people in it, and even though I don't agree with what some of you say, I respect your opinion. Brian Kelly..... Held a meeting in the morning promising his players he was staying put and that afternoon had a press conference accepting the ND job. He is a great coach, motivator, and speaker, but he is corssed the line by flat out lying. I am not sure he is best example to use in this situation. Like I said in my above post he better be careful. I applaud and congratulate him on what seems to be a hell of a promotion. That being said, on average administrators only stay in one spot about 3 years. If he burns too many bridges or pisses too many people off, he may end up on the short end of the stick if they get back in control of his work environment.....
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Post by leighty on May 7, 2010 10:07:35 GMT -6
Wow, thanks for your intelligent insight into this debate. I've offered plenty throughout this thread, something you have neglected to do.
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Post by phantom on May 7, 2010 10:10:26 GMT -6
If you guys want to Twitter each other use your cell phones or PMs.
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Post by phantom on May 7, 2010 11:32:33 GMT -6
What I haven't seen (maybe it was in there- it is a long thread) is mention of what class he teaches and what the schedule is like at his school over the next couple of weeks. At some schools and in some classes the last few weeks are critical. At some it's just marking time.
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smu92
Junior Member
Posts: 415
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Post by smu92 on May 7, 2010 11:33:53 GMT -6
What I haven't seen (maybe it was in there- it is a long thread) is mention of what class he teaches and what the schedule is like at his school over the next couple of weeks. At some schools and in some classes the last few weeks are critical. At some it's just marking time. I think I saw PE in there somewhere.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2010 11:37:41 GMT -6
Good point by Phantom. At my school, the last three week's (where we are now) would be a horrible time to turn a class over to a sub for a whole week. I don't teach PE, so maybe that's different. I know most of the "why" has been explained, but if it was me, I couldn't imagine being in a situation where all my days were gone and I couldn't imagine wanting to be away from my classroom for a week because of how hard it would be to catch back up on my work.
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Post by sandstorm on May 7, 2010 13:17:23 GMT -6
Just FYI, it wouldn't matter if he had days or not, the principal told him that her policy is she will not approve more than 3 consecutive days. The days are a non-factor in my opinion.
This is a weird situation, danged if you do....danged if you don't. Got to weight the options, make a decision, and roll with it.
I have a feeling he will be just fine. I still think he is the luckiest duck I know.
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Post by Defcord on May 7, 2010 15:53:48 GMT -6
indiana - first, there are rules preventing kids from transfering inseason. and second, teaching is a career, playing HS football is not a career. If you want to compare the loyalties, then you should compare apples to apples and compare the teaching profession to professional football players. This isn't a loyalty situation, it's a business decision. I understand that there are rules it was a hypothetical situation. I am just saying that we preach one thing and live another in too many situations. I did not compare it to pro football because we are not talking about professional football. I don't care what this guy does but if he talks commitment to kids he is full of crap. So is Brian Kelly full of crap too? How about Lou Holtz? How about Jimmy Johnson? Successful people move on, deal with it. Obviously he is doing something right, or he wouldn't keep progressing in his career. I am happy for him. He will buy the first round, finally. I just want to say this...I love this profession. There are some very passionate people in it, and even though I don't agree with what some of you say, I respect your opinion. [/quote] So you are raising your kids that commitments are meant to be broken? And if everyone else is doing it is okay to do it??? I have no problme with those guys leaving, but they did have to pay buyouts as part of a contract they were involved in. Moving on and moving up is fine, but honor your commitments. I have no problem with jumping ship and burning bridges just don't tell kids they better be committed and that football is about anything more than winning if you are going to skip town at any given opportunity. You are correct that they did something right....They Won football games...but I like to believe some of the cliches this wonderful sport presents.
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Post by phantom on May 7, 2010 15:59:44 GMT -6
I understand that there are rules it was a hypothetical situation. I am just saying that we preach one thing and live another in too many situations. I did not compare it to pro football because we are not talking about professional football. I don't care what this guy does but if he talks commitment to kids he is full of crap. So is Brian Kelly full of crap too? How about Lou Holtz? How about Jimmy Johnson? Successful people move on, deal with it. Obviously he is doing something right, or he wouldn't keep progressing in his career. I am happy for him. He will buy the first round, finally. I just want to say this...I love this profession. There are some very passionate people in it, and even though I don't agree with what some of you say, I respect your opinion. So you are raising your kids that commitments are meant to be broken? And if everyone else is doing it is okay to do it??? I have no problme with those guys leaving, but they did have to pay buyouts as part of a contract they were involved in. Moving on and moving up is fine, but honor your commitments. I have no problem with jumping ship and burning bridges just don't tell kids they better be committed and that football is about anything more than winning if you are going to skip town at any given opportunity. You are correct that they did something right....They Won football games...but I like to believe some of the cliches this wonderful sport presents. [/quote] Is your problem that he left early or that he left at all?
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Post by 19delta on May 7, 2010 16:21:57 GMT -6
Tell my ex-boss to go *$ herself. Tell your ex-boss to f-herself for expecting you to fullfil the obligations of your teaching contract? I don't think she is being unreasonable.
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Post by 19delta on May 7, 2010 17:03:22 GMT -6
Couple years ago, I was passed over for the head coaching position at the school where I was an assistant coach for 5 years. Guy they hired over me was some guy who had never even coached high school football before. Long story short...I knew that I had no future in that district. The adminstration showed me how much "loyalty" really mattered...
So, I managed to wrangle an O/C position at a nearby school. However, I was still teaching at the school where I had been passed over for the coaching gig. At the end of August, about 2 weeks before school started, a teaching gig that I was qualified for opened up at the school where I was the O/C.
So I called my principal (the guy who didn't hire me to be the head coach) and I told him that I was offered a teaching gig at this new school. He told me that, because there was less than 30 days left before the start of school, that he could force me to start the year teaching for him until they found a suitable replacement and if I quit, they could take legal action against me (basically they could try and get my certificate suspended or revoked).
Anyway, I contacted the superintendent and explained the situation. He had felt badly about me not getting the HC job in the first place so he directed the principal to release me so I could take the new teaching job.
Thing is...I have applied for a few jobs since then and, even though that principal is NOT one of my references, he has been called a few times and, from what I have heard through the grapevine, he has tried to fvck me over by saying negative sh1t about me
Hasn't cost me a job yet, but, I guess my point is that you should always remember that the teaching and coaching world is small and that any people you p1ss off might know people who are in a position to make a decision about your future.
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Post by Defcord on May 7, 2010 18:02:57 GMT -6
So is Brian Kelly full of crap too? How about Lou Holtz? How about Jimmy Johnson? Successful people move on, deal with it. Obviously he is doing something right, or he wouldn't keep progressing in his career. I am happy for him. He will buy the first round, finally. I just want to say this...I love this profession. There are some very passionate people in it, and even though I don't agree with what some of you say, I respect your opinion. So you are raising your kids that commitments are meant to be broken? And if everyone else is doing it is okay to do it??? I have no problme with those guys leaving, but they did have to pay buyouts as part of a contract they were involved in. Moving on and moving up is fine, but honor your commitments. I have no problem with jumping ship and burning bridges just don't tell kids they better be committed and that football is about anything more than winning if you are going to skip town at any given opportunity. You are correct that they did something right....They Won football games...but I like to believe some of the cliches this wonderful sport presents. Is your problem that he left early or that he left at all? [/quote] My problem is that he is leaving early. And that so many think the principal is wrong because she wants him to honor his commitment. I know a lot of people have been wronged by administration. I have as well. But I still believe in honoring commitments and loyalties and teaching my players to do the same thing. I don't see why so many of us think that the principal is in the wrong for not giving him a good recommendation. I think it is great he got the job. And I also hope that he does well.
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Post by coachal70 on May 7, 2010 19:48:37 GMT -6
If the two schools aren't in the same district, it won't be in his file in the new school. It seems the old boss has an axe to grind over him leaving. If he's planning on staying at the new school for a while it may be worth the risk to go early and bond with the new players. But, understand he'll catch a load of crap until the end of the year. Good Luck.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 8, 2010 9:18:04 GMT -6
Professionalism goes both ways. If I was this principal I would fire him immediately. You make $40,000 to teach / $6,000 to coach. He's already missed at least 10 days of school for whatever reason, now he's going to take a week off? Sounds like a total jack off. I think some of you should look in the mirror and think about if you really belong in the classroom. What do you think is going on in his classroom while he takes a week off? There is no such thing as a quality substitute, a good sub just gets the class through the day. Principal cannot fire teachers. The principal would have to make the recommendation, which would have to be followed up on by HR, then there would be a meeting/mediation, then it would have to voted on by the BOE. Which by this time of the year, they wouldn't do anyway especially since he's already leaving. But I do agree, already having missed 10 days?? If the principal was worth her salt, attendance should have already been addressed with this teacher. And I would also like to know how long he's been teaching. I have 136 sick days accumulated (13 years), I only miss a few days a year, why is he out of sick days? and no question there is no such thing as a quality sub, but I think that also has to do with what he teaches. Not all places are the same. Some districts / charter schools etc do leave dismissal authority with the principal. Not all districts honor sick days if you transfer to new districts. Could be that this was a quick one year stop into this district.
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