|
Post by coachk13 on May 6, 2010 7:43:05 GMT -6
I'm the WR coach at a 3A school. I'm having an issue with my OC and sometimes my HC continually contradicting things that I coach my receivers to do. They're both die hard wing-t guys and we're a TFS school now. I've played and coached in 4 WR spread offenses for 6 years, and anyone who knows me, knows that I'm pretty well versed in WR technique and the 4-wide passing game in general. I keep trying to tell them that what they're trying to teach them is not fundamentally sound or schematically sound. Example: running the TFS Ace 66 concept (hitches on the outside, seams on the inside) vs Cover 2. I keep telling the OC that we need to just convert it to smash, because that's what smash was developed for, but he just won't listen. We're running our receivers to get covered. What do I do?
|
|
|
Post by redandwhite on May 6, 2010 7:50:32 GMT -6
The biggest concern I would have is why a "die hard wing-T" HC and OC are running TFS; it's a recipe for disaster, and I would be looking for somewhere else to coach.
|
|
|
Post by joelee on May 6, 2010 7:57:25 GMT -6
I have run tfs for 6 years. sometimes bad plays get called. we do not convert anything. we hit the seam bend vs c2
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on May 6, 2010 8:02:32 GMT -6
Leave.
Or do what they tell you to. It's not your call to make.
|
|
|
Post by coachk13 on May 6, 2010 8:12:20 GMT -6
The biggest concern I would have is why a "die hard wing-T" HC and OC are running TFS; it's a recipe for disaster, and I would be looking for somewhere else to coach. I am currently looking. The reason they're running TFS is because the HC got a ton of pressure from boosters to run a more exciting offense. They specifically brought me in to coach receivers because of my background. I'm not trying to be a dissenting assistant, I'm really just trying to help us win and keep our offense from getting into trouble.
|
|
|
Post by sandstorm on May 6, 2010 8:19:40 GMT -6
The biggest concern I would have is why a "die hard wing-T" HC and OC are running TFS; it's a recipe for disaster, and I would be looking for somewhere else to coach. I am currently looking. The reason they're running TFS is because the HC got a ton of pressure from boosters to run a more exciting offense. They specifically brought me in to coach receivers because of my background. I'm not trying to be a dissenting assistant, I'm really just trying to help us win and keep our offense from getting into trouble. I would take a proactive approach. Communication is such key in a situation like this. Ask him for some time, and sit down and discuss what it is HE wants YOU to do. It is his responsibility to make sure his assistants are on the same page as him. However, it is your responsibility as a position coach to make sure you are coaching them kids up as it relates to the offensive system your program is committed to.
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 6, 2010 8:20:26 GMT -6
They specifically brought me in to coach receivers because of my background. Who is they? The boosters or the HC?
|
|
|
Post by coachk13 on May 6, 2010 8:30:00 GMT -6
They specifically brought me in to coach receivers because of my background. Who is they? The boosters or the HC? Both.
|
|
|
Post by airmale on May 6, 2010 8:33:30 GMT -6
Sandstorm is correct. Communicate. Make sure you are on the same page. My Rec coach and I have knock down drag outs almost weekly. We do it in the coaches office, mostly. But then we go have a drink or dinner. It is not personaljust 2 passionate guys. You and your OC & HC need to be on the same page. Even if they are wrong, they are right. Until you are the OC or HC. And remember this lesson to let your assistants coach, but make sure you are on the same page.
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 6, 2010 8:37:22 GMT -6
Who is they? The boosters or the HC? Both. Interesting. When you say the vertical should be converted to smash, are you talking about a sight adjustment?
|
|
|
Post by coachk13 on May 6, 2010 8:38:51 GMT -6
I think the communication is the problem. I try to communicate with them, but they don't often reciprocate. The HC has gotten a lot more lenient from fall to spring. But the OC has just gotten worse. I'll tell him before practice, how I plan on teaching a certain technique or concept and he says ok. When practice rolls around, he goes and changes it on me during 7 on 7 or team and makes me look bad because I taught the receivers something totally different during individual.
|
|
|
Post by coachk13 on May 6, 2010 8:40:35 GMT -6
Interesting. When you say the vertical should be converted to smash, are you talking about a sight adjustment? More or less. If we see a 2 shell pre-snap, convert to 66 smash. It's really easy and the QB can do it at the line. None of the teams we play roll their coverages, so it's not like we'd get caught in a jam.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on May 6, 2010 8:57:05 GMT -6
When life hands you lemons.......
say F-- these lemons and bail"Sometimes folks do dumb things.... Most coaches aren't receptive to making changes, especially after they've sold themselves on something. Chances are, these guys don't know any better, and don't understand the passing game enough to be comfortable in recognizing how to stress coverage. All you can do is all you can do - present the issue, explain how it would be easier (better) and letting them make/arrive at the decision. Give them time to think about it. They will either recognize this would be the way to go, or they will be bullheaded and try to force the square peg in a triangular hole....in which case you can start drinking or leave.
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 6, 2010 9:12:25 GMT -6
Sounds like a bad situation for all involved.
Don't know the specifics of you're hiring, but if you say the boosters had a hand in your appointment, I could see where that could be a source of some resentment for the OC.
As far as he is concerned, you're a hired gun forced upon him to coach in a scheme that was also forced upon him.
I think until you can either create a good working relationship with this guy or jump ship, you need to know your role. At best, you're third in the offensive pecking order - HC, OC, you. The techniques that they want taught are the techniques you need to teach.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Clement on May 6, 2010 9:32:24 GMT -6
Yeah, this situation requires you to talk to them in a straightforward way, calmly and privately. If they're reasonable people, they should at least discuss the issue with you. Start by getting on the same page, then discuss playcalling and adjustments.
|
|
|
Post by coachowensofmhs on May 6, 2010 10:13:48 GMT -6
I agree this is a bad situation.
A far as the inside guys running seems, they should read whether it is 2 or 1 high safety. If it is 2 like you are stating, the inside receivers routes should bend almost turning into skinny posts. Qb has to hit the window. Having them convert to smash is putting a lot of thinking on them and making sure they are on the same page as your QB. Trust me, you can still run the 66 concept against Cover 2.
|
|
|
Post by coachk13 on May 6, 2010 10:23:31 GMT -6
Guys, thanks for all of the replies. I'm going to try and talk to them diplomatically, but I'm pretty confident now that I'll be leaving anyway, and it may be of no choice of my own.
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on May 6, 2010 10:41:19 GMT -6
Who is they? The boosters or the HC? Both. That would be a big enough red flag for me. If the boosters have that much power over a program it can't be a good situation. As many have said sounds like something you have to hash out in private and see what they want to run. Maybe they think the kids aren't ready to sight adjust or change the routes based on coverage yet. You have to be able to walk before you an run so maybe they are taking it slow. If you can't come to an agreement then I would say see ya. I have seen staffs that can not agree on techniques and concepts and those were some of the worst years in my coaching career.
|
|
smu92
Junior Member
Posts: 415
|
Post by smu92 on May 6, 2010 11:45:50 GMT -6
Just coach your position the way it is lined out in the TFS. That's kind of the point. If everyone is coaching it the way it is lined out in the system, then everyone is on the same page. If you coach it the way it is taught in the TFS and your head coach (or OC) says something different, then you can at least fall back on "Well, Tony Franklin says..." (do this in the office, not on the field). That will at least open up the lines of communication. Not saying you have to be brain-washed by the system, but that's an easy way to get everyone on the same page. If everyone is pulling a different direction, then it will fail. Air raid is not a pick & choose thing. It's a wholesale thing, and everyone has to buy into the details as they are presented. Tony always says "it's not the plays, it's the details."
For the record, I don't run the TFS.
|
|
cmpd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 136
|
Post by cmpd on May 6, 2010 13:52:03 GMT -6
Suggest to them having a WR coach from near by college come by and talk to you guys about what they do. This opens the door for some Q&A with a moderator and you can express your thoughts in the form of a question. If he is talking they may be more open to listen.
|
|
|
Post by lochness on May 6, 2010 19:06:33 GMT -6
The FUC&!NG BOOSTERS pressured the HC and OC to run an offense neither of them believes in or knows how to coach? Alert! Iceberg...right ahead!!! I don't even know what to begin with in telling you how much of a disaster this sounds like.
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on May 6, 2010 19:17:27 GMT -6
The biggest concern I would have is why a "die hard wing-T" HC and OC are running TFS; it's a recipe for disaster, and I would be looking for somewhere else to coach. R&W that was my first thought too. Can you picture me running the TFS? Only if I can run it from bone. If the HC is listening to the boosters about what offense to run I guess it is obvious who is actually blowing the whistle. THE BOOSTERS.
|
|
|
Post by outlawjoseywales on May 6, 2010 20:32:22 GMT -6
Loch, you made me laugh but maybe I should cry instead. Wow, that is a great discription of what is about to happen there. We've seen this so many times, it makes me wonder why coaches can't see it themselves. Running an offensive system that you are forced into running by the P.T.B. that you don't believe in nor understand? Coachk13, if this actually works, I think that most of us here will be shocked. Now, there's always a first time, but with so much history of this NOT working, maybe you should look around. Is this what Ol' Loch was saying?
|
|
|
Post by mitch on May 6, 2010 20:42:42 GMT -6
That would be a big enough red flag for me. If the boosters have that much power over a program it can't be a good situation. As many have said sounds like something you have to hash out in private and see what they want to run. Maybe they think the kids aren't ready to sight adjust or change the routes based on coverage yet. You have to be able to walk before you an run so maybe they are taking it slow. If you can't come to an agreement then I would say see ya. I have seen staffs that can not agree on techniques and concepts and those were some of the worst years in my coaching career. Ditto. The coach changed his philosophy due to pressure from the boosters, and the boosters hired you??? I know you said both brought you in, but it sure sounds like the powers that be - boosters- did it. You got yourself in a mess, brotha. Time to cut ties and start fresh. The HC is going to get fired, you can count on that. You don't want to be on that sinking ship. I've got to go count my lucky stars now. Been reading lots of horror stories on here lately.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on May 6, 2010 20:52:56 GMT -6
What I find terribly ironic is that The CASE STUDY for what happens when you are forced to run something and bring in coaches that you don't want is Tubberville @ Auburn brining in Tony Franklin to run the TFS....
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on May 6, 2010 20:55:50 GMT -6
The reason they're running TFS is because the HC got a ton of pressure from boosters to run a more exciting offense. That's all I needed to hear. Here's my prediction:
|
|
|
Post by mitch on May 6, 2010 20:57:09 GMT -6
I gotta figure out how to post pictures.
|
|
coach11
Sophomore Member
Posts: 162
|
Post by coach11 on May 6, 2010 21:00:20 GMT -6
CoachK, first off embrace the moment. It sounds crazy but no matter the situation, you are getting an education. Whether you stay on staff or not, you can always learn about different situations and how to solve them. I can promise you, that one day when you become a HC, at least one time you are going to try to "over coach" a position coach. Seen it time and time again. You are going to have parents/boosters pressure you and give their two cents about what you should do on defense, and somewhere their baby fits in that equation. How are you going to handle that matter?
You must have a level head about it. I know we all get on here and vent about our problems, but you know you can't vent about the situation to the HC. Sandstorm hit the nail on the head when he talked about communication. That is vital to your future. At your next stop, whether you be a position guy, coord, or HC always ask for advice. "Coach am I coaching this how you want?" Does it need to be different?" ETC. Remember you are a position guy, so know understand role. Best of luck!
|
|
|
Post by brophy on May 7, 2010 6:12:27 GMT -6
what will be even worse is if you sit down with these guys and question the coaching points/how to teach and they DON'T disagree with you.
They agree with your premise in the coaches office You coach your kids up Then those same guys, while you're on the field, and contradict what you (thought) you already agreed on.
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 7, 2010 6:27:53 GMT -6
What I find terribly ironic is that The CASE STUDY for what happens when you are forced to run something and bring in coaches that you don't want is Tubberville @ Auburn brining in Tony Franklin to run the TFS.... That's funny.
|
|