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Post by coachcb on Apr 23, 2010 6:35:56 GMT -6
Let's say that you take over a struggling program; the kind that's won 4-5 games in 4-5 years. You take the job in the winter and get the ball rolling; weight training, a point system to go along with the weight training, spring ball, summer camps ect..
The under classmen are buying in; they're hitting the weights and working hard. But, the seniors have had 2 HCs in their three years in the program and they're not buying in. They're not working hard at all in the offseason and it spills over into two-a-days. The seniors have more talent than the freshman, sophs and juniors, but there are a lot of bad attitudes and they're being lazy.
Now, at some point, if you're going to properly sell your 'effort over ability' philosophy; you can't play lazy kids.
So, at what point do you draw the line and start benching those seniors? Do you set your depth chart according to the hardest workers before the season starts? Do you start benching them during two-a-days? Even if they're performing better than the under classmen while still being lazy? Do you give it a couple of games and see how it pans out?
I would be on the fence with this one. I wouldn't want to start dumping seniors quickly.
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Post by coachbrek on Apr 23, 2010 6:49:33 GMT -6
I had a college buddy who was a head coach at a big school, he ended up replacing seniors with sophomores in the defensive backfield, when the parents freaked, he said he would sit down with them and show them game film why their son's got benched. They never took him up on it and he went on to win the State Championship that year.
He told me no way they win it that year without the change.
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Post by cnunley on Apr 23, 2010 7:02:44 GMT -6
Bench them right away.
Let the Underclassmen see that hard work and effort pays off, even if you're not the most talented at your position.
Your Seniors will have 2 choices. Step up and show what they have by your rules or say good bye to their last season of football.
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zlou58
Freshmen Member
Posts: 19
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Post by zlou58 on Apr 23, 2010 7:20:50 GMT -6
Agree bench those kids fast...show the underclassman you are ready to roll with whoever puts out...bench those kids fast and they will realize what they want very fast!
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Post by superpower on Apr 23, 2010 7:25:28 GMT -6
I agree with the other posters. The fact that they are seniors shouldn't be a license not to meet the expectations. If they were sophomores or juniors and acting that way, you would certainly bench them.
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Post by dirtybird13 on Apr 23, 2010 7:36:28 GMT -6
Bench them right away. Let the Underclassmen see that hard work and effort pays off, even if you're not the most talented at your position. Your Seniors will have 2 choices. Step up and show what they have by your rules or say good bye to their last season of football. I am just an echo here, but I would like to add some other thoughts. We not only film our games, but ALL of our practices. Not the whole thing top to bottom, but almost anything that is a team drill (7 on 7, 9 on 7, Team, SY/GL, etc...) this allows our HC to show parents not only film from friday night, but how the kids practice day to day. I get why you speak of riding the fence, because it's hard to get past the immediate ramifications of sitting down seniors... however I'd put better than even money that your seniors will learn the lesson after 1-3 weeks of missing games. You may lose a few, even though we all would like to keep every guy on the chart, but those who learn from it and do stick around are going to be more a part of your core value system anyway. Every kid in the program needs to see accountability as an intergral part of what you do. Furthermore your underclassmen will have this idea reinforced, and it will keep the upperclassmen from being a negative influence on them. They will have a stronger sense of identity within your team concept if they see that their hard work and coachability isn't overlooked. I'd try to keep in mind that you get more time with the underclassmen than you do with the guys who just aren't buying in. My two cents.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 23, 2010 8:29:48 GMT -6
I really agree with what's being posted above, but here's my take on the issues with benching the kids early:
1. You are building a program, but you don't want it to be viewed as 'rebuilding'. That tells the kids that you're playing for the next year. Now, you're dealing with a program that's in rough shape and the kids have been losing for a long time. So, you'd like to be able to get some wins your first season. Now, I have no problem losing with hard workers versus winning with lazy ones, but I don't want to jump the gun on that one.
2. Now, I would film EVERYTHING, as has been said above. However, you're still going to be dealing with some negativity from the community for benching the seniors. I know that you're going to put up with crap, no matter how successful you are, but I think that benching those cats early will really take the criticism to the next level. OR, maybe not, you just don't know.
3. I have seen bad things happen when you bench kids too early. The rest of the kids might be getting solid playing time, but they're going to wonder if you're one of those guys that plays an underclassmen up because they have more time in the program. There is a program in the area that had that happen to them; the parents put the bug in the juniors' ears that they weren't going to play the next year BECAUSE they were will be seniors, they decided not to work as hard in the off season and it all went downhill from there. It became cyclic.
Now, I know that all of these are basically 'what if' scenarios, but they're still something to consider. This is especially true if you have a stud senior who is still out-playing the guys beneath him, even when being really lazy. You bench him because he's being lazy and it sends the message that you want to play underclassmen. You play him and the 'effort over ability' philosophy goes out the window. I would want to bench the kid early, but if, on film, he's performing better than his back-ups, you don't have any ground to stand on. I'd hope and pray that the rest of the kids catch up to him because they're working hard and he's not. But, until then, you're kind of stuck.
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Post by cc on Apr 23, 2010 8:38:41 GMT -6
I would sit down and talk with those seniors and let them know what you are thinking. Outline your expectations and ask if they are willing to meet them. If they admit they will not they let them know that they can't be starters then (or likely won't if someone is better suited for it). Tell them you are doing this because it's the right way to win. "The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Give them the chance to hear you and talk to you before you pull them. To me communication is key. It's also a good CYA. We even have them sign what they are committing to do. Then if they don't meet it you can use that when those parents show up and the kids will almost always admit they have not been living up to the own standards THEY SET with you.
That said, you might need to use some of them to get wins this year. Success breeds success. Or you go with the younger guys and they will be better for it over the next few years. But I really doubt you will win very much if you pull all those seniors. You have to give them a chance, convert a few, and run off a few...
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bingo1
Freshmen Member
Posts: 78
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Post by bingo1 on Apr 23, 2010 8:44:05 GMT -6
Not that I disagree with what is being said. This is a great question, that I have had to deal with personally.
We are one of the biggest schools in our state's division and a lot of our student population doesn't participate in any of our sports. As a result our numbers are generally lower than most. There are some years where our school is simply outmatched physically.
With all this being said, then what would you do when the Sophomores you have are working hard but are physically outmatched? Do you keep them together at the lower levels and develop a winning attitude, or do you pull them up and possible get the crap beat out of them? Will getting the crap beat out of them deter them from playing next year or damage their spirit? To me this is a slippery slope, one that can't have a uniformed answer. I have done both. Played Sophomores at varsity level and kept a good group together intentionally in order to develop a winning attitude.
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Post by blb on Apr 23, 2010 9:07:10 GMT -6
Is it possible the seniors weren't taught commitment, leadership, responsibility by previous coaches?
We tell our kids every year that if a younger player is even with an older player (i.e. junior vs. senior), the younger one plays.
It's coach's judgment when two players are "even." If seniors refuse to GWTP ("Get With The Program") by, say, end of Two-a-days - may be time to pull the trigger.
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Post by dirtybird13 on Apr 23, 2010 9:26:08 GMT -6
It's also worth throwing in there that our program believes in treating players equally, though you can not treat every player the same way. A good example is a stud wide reciever running four cross fields for spending time in ISS is not being punished on an equal level to the nose tackle running the same four cross fields for the same offense. I'm not saying you have to try to kill the WR, but we do our best to maintain awareness of equality, though your approach to equality may be different for each player.
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Post by coachwoodall on Apr 23, 2010 9:34:55 GMT -6
Once had a new HC come in to a similar situation. One of his selling points was he was building the program to win a championship and that he wanted to do it as quick as possible.
He main point to the seniors was that THEY were going to be the one biggest reason for that. He promised them if they didn't win it this year, that win it DID happen, this class would be recognized as the reason it finally did happen. He even promised to buy them rings to signify it.
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Post by fatkicker on Apr 23, 2010 11:49:38 GMT -6
as long as you've done everything possible to earn the senior's trust and they still don't respond then i'm all for playing the underclassmen.....
just remember, these seniors have been burned by several coaches during their high school career.......why should they trust the new coach?
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Post by coachnorm on Apr 23, 2010 12:50:43 GMT -6
The earlier you bench them the better, for 2 reasons:
1. they have a chance to learn from the error of their ways - they can recover from it. 2. If you're going to start trouble by doing it better to have that trouble in the preseason than during a playoff hunt.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Apr 24, 2010 10:14:44 GMT -6
My two cents on benching a kid who is still better than his backup:
We had a senior free safety last year who was seriously underacheiving the first couple of games, but was still head and shoulders better than his backup. The problem causing his poor play was laziness in practice causing him to make mistakes in games. We made the decision that the way he was playing was going to cost us a game at some point anyway, so why not get it out of the way early, and we benched him.
The way we explained it to the player was that we refuse to be the type of coaches that let our talented players underacheive, and we'd rather hide you on the sideline than put you out there when you aren't playing the way you're capable of. We explained to him that simply being better than the guy behind you isn't good enough, and wouldn't be acceptable.
I'm not going to pretend it was some kind of old-school my way or the highway kind of speach, there was a decent amount of hand-holding involved too, about how for us to do the things we planned on doing we needed him playing his best, etc. but all that stuff was true and he was mature enough to understand where we were coming from.
So anyway, long story short he stands on the sideline more than usual one game and all of the sudden he's super coachable the rest of the season, performs well enough for our coaches to pick him as our defensive POY, and everything works out ok. Obviously that doesn't mean this will be the case with every player, but I would recommend not just "firing" the seniors when the time comes, but to put some of the ownership on them, "you're too good to play that way, and I'd be a crappy coach to let you do it." I'm sure not all, but maybe some will respond and you'll get some of your best players back on your side.
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Post by airman on Apr 24, 2010 15:56:35 GMT -6
these are tough situations to be in. some times the seniors have to go for the sake of the program and you have to start underclassmen.
there is no great answer here. it is going to have some pain what ever you do.
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Post by phantom on Apr 24, 2010 16:07:52 GMT -6
Let's say that you take over a struggling program; the kind that's won 4-5 games in 4-5 years. You take the job in the winter and get the ball rolling; weight training, a point system to go along with the weight training, spring ball, summer camps ect.. The under classmen are buying in; they're hitting the weights and working hard. But, the seniors have had 2 HCs in their three years in the program and they're not buying in. They're not working hard at all in the offseason and it spills over into two-a-days. The seniors have more talent than the freshman, sophs and juniors, but there are a lot of bad attitudes and they're being lazy. Now, at some point, if you're going to properly sell your 'effort over ability' philosophy; you can't play lazy kids. So, at what point do you draw the line and start benching those seniors? Do you set your depth chart according to the hardest workers before the season starts? Do you start benching them during two-a-days? Even if they're performing better than the under classmen while still being lazy? Do you give it a couple of games and see how it pans out? I would be on the fence with this one. I wouldn't want to start dumping seniors quickly. I believe in playing the best players but what's a players upside? You were bad with him so why not be bad without him if it's making you better in the long run. I would put the workers at the top of the depth chart at the start of practice. The senior may eventually beat him out but not if he's making mental errors or loafing on the field. You can live with yourself if you lose with a kid who can't get it done. There's no reason to lose with a kid who WON'T get it done.
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