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Post by daveinsarasota on Apr 20, 2010 10:24:43 GMT -6
Dave, A difference in philosophies, I dont tell kids they shouldnt play just because they cant provide team value in the scheme I want to run or make it tough for me to get them in the game. I dont "cut" non football players. I adapt the scheme so they can get on the field and add team value. I dont run what I want to run or ran in HS or College, I have to run something that will get them all on the field. We each have our own mission and goals as to why we coach, ours differ by a very wide margin. Everyone has their own motivations and methods. Those kids you discard from your team because you dont have a scheme that can accomodate them- for me every one of them will eventually carry the ball and play offense, in the meanwhile they are getting trained and coached up on both sides of the ball and in TIGHT games, will be playing most of their reps on defense as BCs. My guess is they like that a lot more than not being on the team, like how you do it per your post. Well said...but the truth is that I have only had to tell two or three kids in the last 10 years that they shouldn't play football...and the honest truth was that they shouldn't. In these cases, there was not one thing they could do...and it wasn't fair for them, or the team. Now philosphically, was that wrong? Perhaps some would say it was. But there are cases when a kid has no business on a football field. I don't tend to cut players, although it may appear that I advocate that, but there are cases where it is the right thing to do... I can teach most kids how to stalk or screen block, and I have had MPPs execute blocks that have scored critical touchdowns. If a kid is a receiver, he will be contantly catching the ball at practice, and run routes, and work on his blocking. We coach them up. Some take more work than others, but we still work them. We know they aren't going to play defense, or be in the backfield, or play on the line...so that leaves receiver. It is essential that we prepare them for the inevitability that a coach will ignore them...we plan for that and practice it every day. Other MPPs will play offensive line. If they elevate their game...they get a shot at defense. All interior players will learn D-line techniques, even though they may not get used there. We rarely have MPP oustide players on defense...so rare, that I should say, it doesn't happen at all...
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Post by davecisar on Apr 20, 2010 10:26:50 GMT -6
OK so if he calls Black 13 and you run to the 3 hole/left, Im not going to know after one sequence that Black is the Hot key? If that works where you live, keep running it. Black was not the hot word in that example...fire was...and it is not 3 hole...it is odd (right) or even (left) numbers... BLACK is the hole...the number is the side...and there is a hot word... The example that I gave used FIRE as the hot word. As I said before, it was a GENERAL EXAMPLE... I am sure how it is actually going to be called this year...but the general philosophy is to incorporate a hot word, have two plays get called, have at least one nonsense word, as we call it... The QB can say anything he wants, as long as two plays are called at the line, and one will follow the hot word...WHICH CHANGES every quarter. Good luck trying to decipher it... Dave - I understand that you are a successful coach...but you are not the only one out there who knows what they are doing. My no-huddle/audible system is a hybrid of George Thole's and our local high school coach, who has been at our school since 1981... And by the way...regarding MPPs....I am not changing my tune. The players I described will get the minimum number of plays...they are not as effestive as the ones, but at least they can stalk block, and possibly catch if need be. If a coach decides not to cover the guy out wide...so be it. We WILL throw to that kid...and at some point, he WILL catch it...even if we only get a few yards. I get that, per you the ones that cant catch or are too small to be on the line etc are told they shouldnt play football per your post, they wont be wearing a uniform. A TRUE mmp kid with very little body control and athleticism even with phenomenal coaching is not going to consistently stalk the 3rd best athlete on my team (my corners) or catch the ball well. As a DC Im more than willing to accept the incompletions and possible very small gains in exchange for playing 11 vs 10 football. Now if you have 26 kids and you get rid of the worst 4 (tell their parents they shouldnt play), the 22 that remain are a much different dynamic altogether, true MMPs are gone. I said 3 hole/left meaning either.
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gguts
Probationary Member
Posts: 5
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Post by gguts on Apr 20, 2010 10:32:11 GMT -6
We have a no cut policy at our middle school level which is where I coach. But I do not have a certain number of plays that each kid has to play. However I agree if a kid comes to practice and is giving a good effort then he deserves and has earned "playing time" even if he is not the biggest or best athelete.
I had a couple of smaller kids that split starting time at Dline simply because of effort at practice. I do put "MMP" kids at WR and Dline. My assis. is very good at rotating kids in and out of the game as the game goes on. So we just continue to rotate them in out as the game goes on. Not so much when the game is out of hand or certain quarters. The more regularly they are moved in and out the easier they are "hidden" and the more apart of ther game they feel.
But no matter where they are on the field, they should be taught the proper way to play the position.
Having a plan ahead of time is better than the alternative... its not good when kids dont get to play at all. Not good for parents, not good for the coach, and most importantly not good for the kid.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 20, 2010 10:38:36 GMT -6
In the previous city I lived, the league had no mmp rule I required my coaches to play every kid X amount of plays per game. I used a sliding scale based on team size. I actually fired a coach and his staff who didnt get their plays in- he did it twice. To prove that it could be done and you could still win, I doubled the number of plays for my own personal teams. We played the kids from the opening gun and proved to the whiners it could be done.
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Post by mhcoach on Apr 20, 2010 11:08:36 GMT -6
Sometimes the whole MMP thing boggles my mind. In NYC there was never any type of rule like that. When I moved to Florida I coached 1 year of youth ball, there was an MMP rule but we only had 17 players so it really wasn't an issue. Coaching at the HS level either in NYC or Florida again there was no such rule to deal with. I always struggled with getting players PT. I really do believe that I should make an effort to get players game reps. Coaching 6A ball usually we had very large squads (65-75) so it almost was impossible to get everyone PT. I understand the difference.
Youth ball has it's own challenges. However, most squads are a lot smaller (22-30 average). It has been my experience that most teams will have a few players that really don't belong on the field. I don't coach just for them, nor for the majority. We preach to our players we are a TEAM, a family. Am I doing my job if I fail either group?
The vast majority of youth coaches need to be commended. It was my never my intention to denergrate anyone here on this board. Nor the way they coach or deal with MMP's. Often here I have said different strokes for different folks. I really do enjoy hearing how others do things, I make no judgements.
Joe
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Post by davecisar on Apr 20, 2010 11:30:41 GMT -6
Last year I went to the Pop Warner and AYF National Championships in Orlando for the week. The best of 1000s of youth football teams. Watched 30 teams play. The passing completion % combined for these games was 28%. These are for the most part 15-0, 14-1 teams who have won their leagues, won regionals, very good teams.
I seriously doubt many of them were throwing the ball to their MMPs and even throwing to their best they only completed 28%. My guess is this- many of the teams were fairly stacked, so even IF they had mmps and had the notion to throw to them ( I doubt it, they were throwing to their playmakers) the mmps kids would be of much higher ability than most. The net is, the best teams against good defenses simply dont complete the ball well. It would be even less if the ball is thrown to a legit MMP kid. Obviously teams that arent 14-1 or 15-0 most would guess would be throwing the ball with much greater accuracy than the average youth team, so you would expect those completion numbers for most everyone else to be lower. So defending the MMP reciever really isnt a requirement when these kids come onto the field if you are using them that way, less than 28%, and for the true MMPs Ive seen play, it would be less than 10%.
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Post by daveinsarasota on Apr 20, 2010 12:12:07 GMT -6
Last year I went to the Pop Warner and AYF National Championships in Orlando for the week. The best of 1000s of youth football teams. Watched 30 teams play. The passing completion % combined for these games was 28%. These are for the most part 15-0, 14-1 teams who have won their leagues, won regionals, very good teams. I seriously doubt many of them were throwing the ball to their MMPs and even throwing to their best they only completed 28%. My guess is this- many of the teams were fairly stacked, so even IF they had mmps and had the notion to throw to them ( I doubt it, they were throwing to their playmakers) the mmps kids would be of much higher ability than most. The net is, the best teams against good defenses simply dont complete the ball well. It would be even less if the ball is thrown to a legit MMP kid. Obviously teams that arent 14-1 or 15-0 most would guess would be throwing the ball with much greater accuracy than the average youth team, so you would expect those completion numbers for most everyone else to be lower. So defending the 1/3 really isnt a requirement when these kids come onto the field if you are using them that way, less than 28%, and for the true MMPs Ive seen play, it would be less than 10%. Dave - based on your logic, it is never advisable to cover the deep 1/3... I mean, since at nationals it was only a 28% completion rate, why bother...right? One thing that needs to be understood is that at nationals...teams will have few (poissbly none) of these types of players. Let's be real. Teams with these types of players will get eaten up at regionals, IF they are fortunate enough to make it that far. At the end of the day...talent will prevail. Look...I guess that TRUE MPPs will not see the ball...OK? There, I said it, and I hope it makes you happy. But in all honesty, a true MPP who is skinny, slow and uncoordinated will not play defense either. He will not be a lineman, will not be a back, and if he doesn't quit, what else can you do with him? I suppose it is just selective moral outrage... It think it is hypocritcal to slam a guy for using WR decoys, while at the same time, denegrate and insult a kid to the degree of crawling around in the dirt. You say it's an "entry" level position...but honestly, the same can be said for that WR decoy...
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Post by davecisar on Apr 20, 2010 12:42:21 GMT -6
Last year I went to the Pop Warner and AYF National Championships in Orlando for the week. The best of 1000s of youth football teams. Watched 30 teams play. The passing completion % combined for these games was 28%. These are for the most part 15-0, 14-1 teams who have won their leagues, won regionals, very good teams. I seriously doubt many of them were throwing the ball to their MMPs and even throwing to their best they only completed 28%. My guess is this- many of the teams were fairly stacked, so even IF they had mmps and had the notion to throw to them ( I doubt it, they were throwing to their playmakers) the mmps kids would be of much higher ability than most. The net is, the best teams against good defenses simply dont complete the ball well. It would be even less if the ball is thrown to a legit MMP kid. Obviously teams that arent 14-1 or 15-0 most would guess would be throwing the ball with much greater accuracy than the average youth team, so you would expect those completion numbers for most everyone else to be lower. So defending the 1/3 really isnt a requirement when these kids come onto the field if you are using them that way, less than 28%, and for the true MMPs Ive seen play, it would be less than 10%. Dave - based on your logic, it is never advisable to cover the deep 1/3... I mean, since at nationals it was only a 28% completion rate, why bother...right? One thing that needs to be understood is that at nationals...teams will have few (poissbly none) of these types of players. Let's be real. Teams with these types of players will get eaten up at regionals, IF they are fortunate enough to make it that far. At the end of the day...talent will prevail. Look...I guess that TRUE MPPs will not see the ball...OK? There, I said it, and I hope it makes you happy. But in all honesty, a true MPP who is skinny, slow and uncoordinated will not play defense either. He will not be a lineman, will not be a back, and if he doesn't quit, what else can you do with him? I suppose it is just selective moral outrage... It think it is hypocritcal to slam a guy for using WR decoys, while at the same time, denegrate and insult a kid to the degree of crawling around in the dirt. You say it's an "entry" level position...but honestly, the same can be said for that WR decoy... I appeciate you finally agreed to speak the truth I know we dont have to cover TRUE mmp kids, we don't, well coached teams wont either, they will gladly play 11 vs 10. If you read my post, every one of my BCs has carried the ball via direct short snap in 13 of the last 14 seasons. Every one of them has played offense as well. In 80% of those games, they probably played a bunch of offense. In 14 seasons, in 17 of those games, they may have just played defense. And on defense many of them have recovered fumbles and made tackles while per our scheme added tremendous amount of value to the teams goals and they play from the opening gun. Most kids like that, they have to be blocked because they are a true threat in no space, they cant be ignored like the mmp super wide out. AND we never have to tell them they "arent suited" to play football.
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Post by daveinsarasota on Apr 20, 2010 12:59:48 GMT -6
I don't tell the kid they aren't suited to play football. If I have this concern...I tell the parents.
Like I said...I have only had to do this a few times in the last 10 years. I generally feel that I can do something with most kids...but there TRULY are exceptions.
We usually have to play the teams from Miami, or Tampa, in the first round of regionals...and those guys DON'T have MPPs... In division 1...good luck. You will be seeing nothing but greyhounds... In division 2, there is a little wiggle room, and more of a possiblity that you will get a few MPPs, but not many at that point.
I plan on a few MPPs. A couple on the line, and MAYBE one or two of those skinny slow types. other than that, we should be in good shape.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 20, 2010 15:44:08 GMT -6
No matter how it comes down, the kid isnt playing football based on your words/decision to tell parents the player isnt suited to play the sport. I understand when you are trying to win National Championships well coached teams will exploit every weakness, very tough to win them all and have weaker players. I have seen it done at DII some though for sure.
Ive done plenty of private team clinics in Florida: Key West, Jupiter, Winderemere, Sebring. Doing 2 there in next 3 months.
I see plenty of true MMPs on those teams, the same as elsewhere. In fact the team from Key West probably had more MMPs on it than all but 1 team I worked with last year.
Im very familiar with the teams from Miami, have plenty of film etc. Coach Eddie DI Midget National Champions and I are buds, were supposed to do a private clinic together this year in Panama. No he didnt have any MMPs, but I did see a team from Detriot sub in an entie MMP "wedge team" type deal at JM DII, go 3 and out every time etc Saw some MMPs, not the "Lupus" types but MMPs just the same.
Here "Select" or "A" is same as DI. Teams are chosen from groups of 100-250 kids, Many orgs have in-house leagues. They take their best 25 kids drafted from 250 and that is the "A". The other teams do the same, smaller groups put their best on "A", the rest on "B"
WHen Ive coached Select "A", much different beast than now where I just take whoever shows, no "A" or "B" I used a COMPLETELY different defense because I didnt have a single MMP when I chose from 150 kids.
In the clinics I do, I do show of hands- less than 3% of youth teams are "select" in the US. Less than 5% do not have MMP rules. Not a single coach at the clinic I did this last weekend did NOT have MMP rules and not a single one was "select" which leads me to believe, like most of us, they have MMPs. In fact many of them talked in depth about MMPs.
I might add BCs learn how to block and tackle just like all the rest of our players. They learn how to recover fumbles, catch etc etc, whatever their position calls for. They use a part type tech and are on 4s rather than 3s as they make penetration, everything else they learn is just like everyone else. Most importantly they are playing defense which seems like what all of our kids want to play and they start- we start a different 2 every game, the rest get in every 2 plays. They love it and know they are adding value and doing an important job that is critical to our success on every play, which is my end goal.
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