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Post by jhanawa on Mar 26, 2010 6:59:22 GMT -6
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Post by brophy on Mar 26, 2010 7:21:11 GMT -6
Unrelated to the article, but I never really understood the elimination of PE in schools. That just seems counter-intuitive to adolescent development/cognition training. Kids aren't naturally going to sit still in a desk or classroom and absorb information like a graduate course lecture. However, not to derail your intent (which is certainly valid), I don't believe the article's content is a real barometer for a healthy society. Judging a generation's worth solely on how well they can become automaton soldiers would appear to be counter-productive. And thats a bad thing? This is something we ought to keep in mind when coaching football. Kids seem to respond better to appealling to their intellect (pattern recognition skills) rather than physically beating them into the ground. It is good that the future generation will be more independent and free-thinking. It is BAD when we coddle folks with attention. I'm all for letting kids find their own answers, but I'm also for letting them learn the lesson of STFU (you're not special and don't need to be validated) The article could be a good jump off point towards the true scope of how the military should be utilized (this isn't 1943 anymore). ( www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/22/the_new_rules_of_war ) ** good luck, though, I'm sure this thread will be locked shortly
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Post by airmale on Mar 26, 2010 10:33:58 GMT -6
As a teacher I couldn't disagree more. Kids today do not think. They want everything handed to them. Test scores are lower. Achievement is lower. They can't spell, punctuate, edit, etc... Oh sure there are smart kids. But for the most part they are underachieving.
We worry more about how they "feel" about a problem, instead of if it is right or wrong. In fact, I am starting to believe there is no wrong.
I know there is no responsibility. There is no accountability for their actions. They do no homework, no class work, fail the tests, and could care less, until it is grade time. Then parents call and whine and we are forced to let them make it up. Why don't we jus give them a packet in December and January, let mom and dad do it, and give them a grade. Heck we can even let mom and dad suggest what grade would be appropriate.
Everyone of them wants to be a game designer. They play games in class or text. Phones are not to be out, but if you take one principals give it right back, with a hug.
Sorry. Rant over. What were we talking about?
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Post by brophy on Mar 26, 2010 10:40:08 GMT -6
In all fairness, the article actually has nothing to do with the education system, though the OP is attempting to draw the conclusion of cause-and-effect. I'm sure it may influence, but probably is not that big of a deal. As a teacher I couldn't disagree more. Kids today do not think. They want everything handed to them. Test scores are lower. Achievement is lower. They can't spell, punctuate, edit, etc... Oh sure there are smart kids. But for the most part they are underachieving. What are you incentivizing in the classroom? I wouldn't anticipate incentivizing rote memorization for regurgitation leads to anything but vegetation. Today's classroom doesn't lead one to free-thinking or independence....its all about test scores and repeating the answers. Has anyone ever noticed the trend in these types of discussions, though? "Kids are soft and weak""Its because we can't do _______ in the classroom. The education system needs to be able to __________""why aren't kids learning? They are really dumb""its the evil parents fault!"The minute there is teacher accountability intimated, it immediately becomes a 'parents-fault' retort.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 26, 2010 10:43:28 GMT -6
I also think the elimination of recess is a big factor as well. There needs to be time of unorganized play and kids just don't do that anymore. God forbid a kid gets in a little scuffle on the playground. That is assault and gets them sent to JDC in a minute. Let 'em play!!!!! Play is a necessary part of learning and has been all but totally removed from many schools after grade 3. www.aap.org/pressroom/playFINAL.pdfpwoodw6715.com/HomeAwayFromHome/play.htm
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Post by blb on Mar 26, 2010 10:55:26 GMT -6
I wouldn't anticipate incentivizing rote memorization for regurgitation leads to anything but vegetation. Today's classroom doesn't lead one to free-thinking or independence....its all about test scores and repeating the answers. I agree with the latter point in particular and it is an unfortunate, unintended consequence of the "accountability" movement. One anecdotal example. Few years ago I was teaching College Prep American Lit (11th grade). At the end of class one day I posed a question that was an outgrowth of what we had been studying, asked the class to think about it, and be ready to answer-discuss it following day. Next day at beginning of hour when I posed the question - no response. Not a single hand raised. I restated the question in a way that practically gave the answer within it. Still nothing (and yes, I know I could have called on a student or two but I wasn't going to let them off that easy). Finally a girl who thought she was actually living out the movie "Clueless" with two of her gal pals, raised her hand and said, "Why don't you just give us the answer?"
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Post by tothehouse on Mar 26, 2010 11:00:15 GMT -6
When the weather is nice I don't allow my kids to come in the house for at least 2 hours (drinks and restroom visits only). The neighbor kids around my house aren't the best kids, but there are a few and they congregate near our house the most...so I can somewhat supervise. Two days ago my 7 year old son rode his bike with me when I went on a 3 mile run. I live in the mountains. A 3 mile ride for a 7 year old is a beasty ride in the hills. He loved it. I loved the fact he came with me and battled the hills. My 9 year old can't take the basketball out of his hands. We have a Wii and my kids enjoy it. I have a rule in my house about the Wii. Every minute of exercise is a minute of the Wii. Every minute of homework is half time of the Wii. Cannot play the video game and then accrue minutes. Must either do homework/exercise and then play. Funny thing is happening. The Wii is getting dusty. They are finding out that playing hoops, football, baseball, and running around with their "friends" is more fun. Interesting. I think it's all about the environment as well. I don't like that schools are doing away with more exercise. But if I don't like that...I need to take care of it myself...so that is what I do. As far as my students? Teaching the TV and Media classes is awesome. Because now the students make the projects that they upload to Youtube. Go to www.thenupa.ning.com to see some of their work. One of my students was stoked that he filmed, edited, converted, and uploaded his project to his iPhone. Yes everything is instant, but if the people watching it are also creating it then there are positives.
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Post by superpower on Mar 26, 2010 11:16:17 GMT -6
The minute there is teacher accountability intimated, it immediately becomes a 'parents-fault' retort. While you are correct that many educators do play the blame game, the truth is that the problem is systemic. Teachers are expected to teach to the standards, which are implemented by the state dept. of education, so no child will be left behind on the standardized test mandated by the state. Many (perhaps most) teachers feel pressure because of the testing, so they teach to the test in an effort to survive. I don't have the answer for how to fix what ails public education. We have dumbed down the curriculum over the course of many years, yet many students still don't succeed because they simply are not motivated to do so. We have changed the expectations because we bought into the idea that every student should go to college, yet not every student wants to go to college. Our form of government in this country is a republic (at least in theory), and it requires that the masses be educated so they can make educated decisions. Thus, we can't just do what some other countries do. If it were as easy as just adopting the most successful educational practices in the world, I think we would have done that by now. In many other countries, the education system is not burdened by an attempt to educate everyone the same way. As I stated earlier, I don't have the answers, but I am confident that NCLB is not the fix. I am all for accountability in education, but teaching to a standardized test does not create independent thinkers who will be successful in the real world.
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Post by flexoption91 on Mar 26, 2010 11:51:32 GMT -6
Tothehouse,
I love those ideas!
I have a 3 month old baby right now and have actually been discussing with my wife ways in our power to ensure that she is active and healthy.
I find it hard to believe that playing any video game, no matter how real it is, can really be that much more fun than playing with your friends, getting a game of hoops or football going, or just plain old exploration.....
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Post by phantom on Mar 26, 2010 11:57:02 GMT -6
I also think the elimination of recess is a big factor as well. There needs to be time of unorganized play and kids just don't do that anymore. God forbid a kid gets in a little scuffle on the playground. That is assault and gets them sent to JDC in a minute. Let 'em play!!!!! Play is a necessary part of learning and has been all but totally removed from many schools after grade 3. www.aap.org/pressroom/playFINAL.pdfpwoodw6715.com/HomeAwayFromHome/play.htmCouldn't agree with you more. If Michelle Obama wants to eliminate childhood obesity then restoring recess and real PE would go a long way.
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Post by flexoption91 on Mar 26, 2010 12:18:46 GMT -6
I also think the elimination of recess is a big factor as well. There needs to be time of unorganized play and kids just don't do that anymore. God forbid a kid gets in a little scuffle on the playground. That is assault and gets them sent to JDC in a minute. Let 'em play!!!!! Play is a necessary part of learning and has been all but totally removed from many schools after grade 3. www.aap.org/pressroom/playFINAL.pdfpwoodw6715.com/HomeAwayFromHome/play.htmYou hit the nail on the head! I cannot count how many times we used to play "touch" football after lunch and come back in with torn shirts and grass stained jeans... Did little fights break out? Yeah from time to time, but we gained a hell of lot more of friendship out of it than anything.
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Post by airman on Mar 26, 2010 13:05:19 GMT -6
Phy ed is the safest job in illinois. it is mandated that PE is done every day.
I think the PE curriculum in also up for debate. it has moved to a more leisure and life time sports approach. I am 41 and I can tell you I learned how to march, do about face and other drill activities in P.E. class through out grade school. kids hated PE because it was really Physical Education. It was a workout not playing softball or hitting golf balls or bowling. I remember doing the super 16 calisthenics every day for 20 minutes.
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Post by tothehouse on Mar 26, 2010 13:25:26 GMT -6
I don't want to thread jack, but some of the teachers/coaches of other sports on our campus think that we (the football team) goes "too hard", "does too much". I have a bunch of easy retorts. What is the single winningest/successful sport on our campus? When did anybody get fired from a job for showing up on time (5:45am work outs in the summer....99% on time rate by ALL PLAYERS)? Watch sport on campus pays for your sport to exist? On and on.
My point is...these people are lazy. They drive the lazy train that exists in our society.
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Post by airman on Mar 26, 2010 14:13:26 GMT -6
I also think the elimination of recess is a big factor as well. There needs to be time of unorganized play and kids just don't do that anymore. God forbid a kid gets in a little scuffle on the playground. That is assault and gets them sent to JDC in a minute. Let 'em play!!!!! Play is a necessary part of learning and has been all but totally removed from many schools after grade 3. www.aap.org/pressroom/playFINAL.pdfpwoodw6715.com/HomeAwayFromHome/play.htmCouldn't agree with you more. If Michelle Obama wants to eliminate childhood obesity then restoring recess and real PE would go a long way. I agree with you restoring recess and Real PE would help but Americans also need to rethink how they eat. every few people actually make meals. making a meal does not consist of taking it out of a box and warming it up. while I realize it was a politically motivated move but Food INC was really an eye opener. Eating is one area which I will say the french and german's are superior to us. they sit down, make a meal from scratch and enjoy what they eat. they eat consciously. when I was 270(now a buck 70 with 10% body fat) i just ate. I did not think about what it was eating. if you want to lose weight you have to learn to eat consciously by savoring every bite. you do this by putting your knife and fork down between each bite. I can make a grab bag of chips last one hour. I eat one chip at a time. our food is no longer grown it is manufactured. I am blessed because when I got married a few years ago my wife came from a family of women who could cook. now I am not saying a man should not cook but some women these days can burn water one being my sister. my sisters family is always eating from some fast food joint or boston market or culvers. I am really surprised Mrs O has not advocated a lawsuit against those big bad pop/energy drink manufactures.
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Post by coachweav88 on Mar 26, 2010 14:27:28 GMT -6
Phy ed is the safest job in illinois. it is mandated that PE is done every day. I think the PE curriculum in also up for debate. it has moved to a more leisure and life time sports approach. I am 41 and I can tell you I learned how to march, do about face and other drill activities in P.E. class through out grade school. kids hated PE because it was really Physical Education. It was a workout not playing softball or hitting golf balls or bowling. I remember doing the super 16 calisthenics every day for 20 minutes. I teach elementary PE and God forbid I actually had the kids doing pushups and situps in class. It was part of a YMCA youth fitness program I was doing. Had parents complain because their kids were "sore".
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Post by phantom on Mar 26, 2010 14:54:37 GMT -6
Phy ed is the safest job in illinois. it is mandated that PE is done every day. I think the PE curriculum in also up for debate. it has moved to a more leisure and life time sports approach. I am 41 and I can tell you I learned how to march, do about face and other drill activities in P.E. class through out grade school. kids hated PE because it was really Physical Education. It was a workout not playing softball or hitting golf balls or bowling. I remember doing the super 16 calisthenics every day for 20 minutes. That's what I was talking about when I said we need REAL PE. I'm not against traching lifetime sports and ballroon dancing and such but a good part of a PE period should be work-up-a-sweat exercise.
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Post by airman on Mar 26, 2010 16:09:08 GMT -6
Phy ed is the safest job in illinois. it is mandated that PE is done every day. I think the PE curriculum in also up for debate. it has moved to a more leisure and life time sports approach. I am 41 and I can tell you I learned how to march, do about face and other drill activities in P.E. class through out grade school. kids hated PE because it was really Physical Education. It was a workout not playing softball or hitting golf balls or bowling. I remember doing the super 16 calisthenics every day for 20 minutes. I have a Bulgarian sandbag training workout I do for 45 minutes 3 days a week after school. and only the wrestlers and really fit football players do it with me. I had a kid ask me why I put myself through so much work and pain. I tell them it keeps the soreness away. That's what I was talking about when I said we need REAL PE. I'm not against traching lifetime sports and ballroon dancing and such but a good part of a PE period should be work-up-a-sweat exercise.
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Post by los on Mar 26, 2010 20:42:36 GMT -6
Damn, I couldn't make it thru a school day nowdays.....no PE......no Recess....no Lunch....those were my best subjects, when I was a kid, lol.
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Post by jrush2500 on Mar 29, 2010 20:46:37 GMT -6
Not sure what its like in other states but in Ohio schools are giving PE credit for playing sports including BAND! Don't get me wrong I love a good band on Friday nights in fact at my high school our band was much better than our football team for a while. Kids are also able to take PE in the summer for 4 weeks as full credit. I have also heard of kids taking PE on line.
Not only is PE being cut but it is drastically being changed. We did not have co-ed PE, the only time we saw a female in PE was on some Fridays and we would play "kill ball" with volleyballs. I don't condom this type of PE but, it just shows how much it has changed. We were able to do much more with just boys in the class. We wrestled, played tag football, hockey ect...
I was looking at an old elementary PE lessons book from years and years ago and I found lots of games that would get a teacher fired these days, such as "King of the Hill."
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 30, 2010 20:09:36 GMT -6
From an academic PE viewpoint...the vast majority of those "out of shape, unhealthy, obese" people are people who had "real" PE as some are describing.
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Post by phantom on Mar 30, 2010 20:40:55 GMT -6
From an academic PE viewpoint...the vast majority of those "out of shape, unhealthy, obese" people are people who had "real" PE as some are describing. Not enough. Elementary kids around here may have an actual PE teacher once a week, maybe less. In HS they only take it for two years and half of that is health/drivers ed. Students don't even have to actually participate. They get a grade for dressing out. None of that is the teachers's fault. From what I've seen PE isn't doing much to stop obesity.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 30, 2010 21:35:52 GMT -6
Phantom--your reply was not directed to my point. My point was that the "real" PE that many in this thread mention did nothing with regards to promoting lifelong fitness. In fact, many studies show that the # 1 cause of adult's aversion to fitness activities was that they hated the PE classes from their youth. Doing squat thrusts and rope climbs at 14 has shown zero correlation to being fit at 40.
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Post by phantom on Mar 30, 2010 21:52:47 GMT -6
Phantom--your reply was not directed to my point. My point was that the "real" PE that many in this thread mention did nothing with regards to promoting lifelong fitness. In fact, many studies show that the # 1 cause of adult's aversion to fitness activities was that they hated the PE classes from their youth. Doing squat thrusts and rope climbs at 14 has shown zero correlation to being fit at 40. I was one who referred to "real" PE and the shift to lifetime sports. It seems like there should be some middle ground between drill sargeant PE, survival of the fittest PE and what we often see, which is very little exercise. I don't do sqaut thrusts anymore either. I think that the focus in many PE classes is often too far in the other direction- away from exercise. I believe that part of the function of a PE class is to teach skills but part is also to give kids exercise.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 30, 2010 21:58:45 GMT -6
Phantom--your reply was not directed to my point. My point was that the "real" PE that many in this thread mention did nothing with regards to promoting lifelong fitness. In fact, many studies show that the # 1 cause of adult's aversion to fitness activities was that they hated the PE classes from their youth. Doing squat thrusts and rope climbs at 14 has shown zero correlation to being fit at 40. I was one who referred to "real" PE and the shift to lifetime sports. It seems like there should be some middle ground between drill sargeant PE, survival of the fittest PE and what we often see, which is very little exercise. I don't do sqaut thrusts anymore either. I think that the focus in many PE classes is often too far in the other direction- away from exercise. I believe that part of the function of a PE class is to teach skills but part is also to give kids exercise. Phantom, the point is that forcing exercise upon someone at 14 does not necessarily promote fitness at 40.
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Post by phantom on Mar 30, 2010 22:10:18 GMT -6
I was one who referred to "real" PE and the shift to lifetime sports. It seems like there should be some middle ground between drill sargeant PE, survival of the fittest PE and what we often see, which is very little exercise. I don't do sqaut thrusts anymore either. I think that the focus in many PE classes is often too far in the other direction- away from exercise. I believe that part of the function of a PE class is to teach skills but part is also to give kids exercise. Phantom, the point is that forcing exercise upon someone at 14 does not necessarily promote fitness at 40. But it helps keep them from being fat 14 year olds.
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Post by dubber on Mar 31, 2010 8:45:54 GMT -6
1.) This is why football is more important now than ever.
Sometimes, it is the ONLY place were kids are given the privilege of getting knocked on their arse and having to face the question of what to do about it.
Point blank, mentally tough people are successful and happy, and it's our jobs to give our kids the chance to develop this.
2.) With that in mind, true toughness is not physical, it's mental. For football this means that just getting waxed mindlessly does not make you a better person. For the education system, that means just getting more "old school" in PE won't fix the lack of mental toughness/lack of thought (it will just make us a few pounds lighter, but still entitled).
3.) The education system comments are interesting to read. For a teacher, it's hard to encourage real learning (not rote rehearsal) when your only maxim is to prep for the standardize test.
The problem with freedom is lack of responsibility, and the problem with micro-management is lack of initiative.
I would be an educator right now if I were given freedom in the classroom.
4.) Also, let's not let the middle agers fall in love with themselves and how "they knew what it took" stories of yester year.
And yes, that is directed to many of the coaches on this board.
It's not like you made the decision to be tough and this generation choose not to, and oh my God, how much nobler are we?
Recognize this generation and that one are products of their environments. Lifestyles became more and more sedentary, and this is the outcome.
The good news: FREE WILL always trumps environmental influences.
Your students CAN LEARN to be self-sufficient, ask questions, and build mental toughness by overcoming the obstacles/difficulties of the materials.
Not all of them want to, but the BEST teachers I had in high school got most of the class to break free from "just gimme the answer" attitude to actual learning.
And most of the time, by NOT focusing on the standardize tests, and instead focusing on pure learning, we actually did BETTER on the standardized tests.
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coachcarnac
Freshmen Member
Carnac the Magnificent
Posts: 29
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Post by coachcarnac on Apr 1, 2010 12:46:14 GMT -6
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Post by mariner42 on Apr 1, 2010 20:53:30 GMT -6
I like that blog, but I also don't feel like I should have to be a card carrying member of the 'greatest generation' in order to be manly.
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Post by los on Apr 1, 2010 21:24:51 GMT -6
Those are really good posts dubber and mariner.....you guys are right too.....this generation isn't the first one that the previous ones thought were soft....when we were pre-teens and teenagers, the guys that taught us PE and coached many of the sports we played, were in fact, real card carrying members of the "greatest generation".....there was no way possible for us to "measure up" to the standards of toughness for these guys.....well, outside of "storming a beach under fire".....come to think of it, they might have used this as one of our PE drills too, if they thought our mothers would let them get away with it, lol.
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Post by mariner42 on Apr 1, 2010 21:38:15 GMT -6
Yeah, watching Gran Torino made me feel pretty frickin' worthless. I wish I was that handy with tools and whatnot, instead I know about file conversions and movie formats and CA state language arts standard 2.1.12 and the character limit for Twitter. Y'know, important stuff...
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