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Post by dubber on Mar 2, 2010 8:36:46 GMT -6
"...said sugar, take it slow and we come together fine, all we need is just a little patience..."-Axl Rose In terms of playcalling, we often talk about being patient. OC's want to be patient, to avoid damning turnovers....."take what they give you" DC's want to MAKE the offense be patient, to encourage damning turnovers......"bend, but don't break" Here is an example of that to the extreme: sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4656414Basically, how many bubble screens can you handle? They lost this game, and a good debate is whether or not throwing bubble 25 times kept them close or ultimately spelled their defeat (I know I saw an article on smartfootball about this). Also, for both offensive and defensive coaches, what is your breaking point when it comes to being patient? How many times can you throw/watch the bubble screen being completed before you have to do something else/stop it?
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Post by hamerhead on Mar 2, 2010 8:46:14 GMT -6
As a DC, it depends entirely on what my offense is doing. If we're up, or at least tied, let them have the bubble all day as long as we can run up and tackle it. If we're down, I might gamble a bit more. Many OC's are less likely to "go for the jugular" and take shots when they're already up and the clocks in their favor.
Played a team this past year with no deep game at all and not much of a ground game. Their offense revolved around hitch, flood, bubble, and fire screen. They had a long night.
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Post by tim914790 on Mar 2, 2010 12:47:12 GMT -6
Down and distance plays a part. If your giving me the bubble on first and second down and 3rd and short it is more than likely that your loading the box to stop the run so I will throw bubble and have it serve as my running game. Now late in the game if your giving it to us I may not take it if we are way down. I might use something else to attack the middle of the field or quarters. But if we are in run the ball mode that is an extension of the run game and we will take it until the cows come home as long as we feel we can catch it and get 5.
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Post by airman on Mar 2, 2010 16:36:01 GMT -6
I think it all depends. what do defenses preach? Pursuit, Pursuit and more pursuit. now think about this. if I throw the bubble 25 times I have made your fat boys run on pursuit 25 times. now i do not know about you but our fat boys do not like to run much so two things are going to happen. 1. your fat boys are going to stand around and not pursue which puts tremendous pressure on your non physical dbs to open field tackle or a big play can happen. 2. your fat boys are going to run and thus get tried, thus slowing down your pass rush.
it is not only bubbles but now and stay to the outside wr's as well.
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Post by phantom on Mar 2, 2010 16:47:31 GMT -6
I think it all depends. what do defenses preach? Pursuit, Pursuit and more pursuit. now think about this. if I throw the bubble 25 times I have made your fat boys run on pursuit 25 times. now i do not know about you but our fat boys do not like to run much so two things are going to happen. 1. your fat boys are going to stand around and not pursue which puts tremendous pressure on your non physical dbs to open field tackle or a big play can happen. 2. your fat boys are going to run and thus get tried, thus slowing down your pass rush. it is not only bubbles but now and stay to the outside wr's as well. If the other guys defense has THAT many fat boys and non-physical DBs you can probably run a lot of things at them.
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Post by airman on Mar 2, 2010 17:04:40 GMT -6
I think it all depends. what do defenses preach? Pursuit, Pursuit and more pursuit. now think about this. if I throw the bubble 25 times I have made your fat boys run on pursuit 25 times. now i do not know about you but our fat boys do not like to run much so two things are going to happen. 1. your fat boys are going to stand around and not pursue which puts tremendous pressure on your non physical dbs to open field tackle or a big play can happen. 2. your fat boys are going to run and thus get tried, thus slowing down your pass rush. it is not only bubbles but now and stay to the outside wr's as well. If the other guys defense has THAT many fat boys and non-physical DBs you can probably run a lot of things at them. yes this is true. however it does not matter what their size they still are having to run all over the field or not run all over the field. If your oline plays starts on dline we are getting a two for one as your guys have to chase while ours sit on the bench and cheer. I am not saying it is the be all, end all. what defenses need to know is the bubble screen or spot screens are to a pass team what the sweep is to a run team.
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Post by dubber on Mar 2, 2010 20:48:49 GMT -6
I agree fast/bubble screens are a great control for the reasons airman mentioned. I don't think it is ALWAYS that simple, but a great control nonetheless. However, at some point, does "taking what they give you" ultimately become counter-productive? www.hanover.edu/athletics/men/football/hfb09_franklinThis kid had 25 catches for 153 yards (6.12 yards a reception)..... They were down 28-7 at half, and did a nice job gettting 3 scores in the second half, but for them to really have a chance to win, they needed more possessions, which means scoring faster......which means finding a way to get bigger plays.
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Post by dubber on Mar 2, 2010 20:51:35 GMT -6
And I am probably nit-picking with this particular game, but don't you see what I'm driving at?
I mean, we are a team that will bubble screen you to death, but as soon as we consistently start getting less than 7 yards a pop, we do something else.
I know what someone reading this is saying "well coach, even if you just can keep getting 3 yards on bubble just keep running it".........
In real life, where penalties happen, where drops happen, where a blown block and we get dropped for a loss happen, etc.......
Alarms should be going off when you are taking what they give you (by alignment) and not getting "the defense is out of position" yards (7+).
It is fair to assume the assignments have changed (whether it is schemed or just defender's cheating), and you need attack that.
This is the reason PA passes average the biggest chunks of yardage.
Averaging 6.12 yards a reception is ultimately counter productive......kind of like the running back that averages 3.2 yards a carry.
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Post by phantom on Mar 2, 2010 21:07:33 GMT -6
If the other guys defense has THAT many fat boys and non-physical DBs you can probably run a lot of things at them. yes this is true. however it does not matter what their size they still are having to run all over the field or not run all over the field. If your oline plays starts on dline we are getting a two for one as your guys have to chase while ours sit on the bench and cheer. I am not saying it is the be all, end all. what defenses need to know is the bubble screen or spot screens are to a pass team what the sweep is to a run team. Actually I agree with you. As a DC I hate playing against patient offenses.
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 4, 2010 12:39:11 GMT -6
In neither of the two articles does it say they ran all those bubble screens, though it seems fairly implied by the 6.12 yards/catch average. The problem may also be the defense. If Hanover ran bubble screens almost exclusively for several long drives, Hanover would have had to score quickly on each of their possessions to keep the separation. This points to a problem stopping the other team, but down 21 with four minutes to go, it's time to stop dumping the ball for quick yards and slow drives.
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Post by coachks on Mar 4, 2010 16:33:27 GMT -6
And I am probably nit-picking with this particular game, but don't you see what I'm driving at? I mean, we are a team that will bubble screen you to death, but as soon as we consistently start getting less than 7 yards a pop, we do something else. I know what someone reading this is saying "well coach, even if you just can keep getting 3 yards on bubble just keep running it"......... In real life, where penalties happen, where drops happen, where a blown block and we get dropped for a loss happen, etc....... Alarms should be going off when you are taking what they give you (by alignment) and not getting "the defense is out of position" yards (7+). It is fair to assume the assignments have changed (whether it is schemed or just defender's cheating), and you need attack that. This is the reason PA passes average the biggest chunks of yardage. Averaging 6.12 yards a reception is ultimately counter productive......kind of like the running back that averages 3.2 yards a carry. Why is averaging 6.2 yards on the bubble different than averaging it on the option, super power, buck sweep, power, belly or anything else?
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Post by airman on Mar 4, 2010 19:41:40 GMT -6
And I am probably nit-picking with this particular game, but don't you see what I'm driving at? I mean, we are a team that will bubble screen you to death, but as soon as we consistently start getting less than 7 yards a pop, we do something else. I know what someone reading this is saying "well coach, even if you just can keep getting 3 yards on bubble just keep running it"......... In real life, where penalties happen, where drops happen, where a blown block and we get dropped for a loss happen, etc....... Alarms should be going off when you are taking what they give you (by alignment) and not getting "the defense is out of position" yards (7+). It is fair to assume the assignments have changed (whether it is schemed or just defender's cheating), and you need attack that. This is the reason PA passes average the biggest chunks of yardage. Averaging 6.12 yards a reception is ultimately counter productive......kind of like the running back that averages 3.2 yards a carry. Why is averaging 6.2 yards on the bubble different than averaging it on the option, super power, buck sweep, power, belly or anything else? I agree with you on this one. 10 plays 62 yds is a nice drive for a td.
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Post by dubber on Mar 4, 2010 20:44:32 GMT -6
I didn't say he averaged 6.12 yards on bubble. He averaged 6.12 yards a reception. That is not very good/productive........ espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/yardsPerReception/count/401/order/falseThe 341st ranked receiver in the NCAA in terms of yards per reception averages 10 yards a catch. You have to go to the 412th ranked reciever in this category to find a player with a lower average than what this receiver had in this game. A runner averaging 6 a clip is fantastic, because everytime we call a run play, we know we are going to playing into that average, because we are 100% sure that the ball will be in a player's hands. Receptions, however, are not garnered everytime we call a pass. In fact, we are do extremely well if we fail to gain yards on only a 1/3 of our pass plays. So, they have to count for more than 6 yards. 10 plays for 62 yards is a nice drive, but you almost never have that drive go: -Pass for 6 yards -Pass for 7 yards -Run for 5 yards -Screen for 7 yards -Run for 6 -Run for 5 -Pass for 7 -Pass for 8 -Run for 6 -Pass for 5 That almost never happens. Most 10 play, 62 yard drives include at least one play where you gained 12 yards or more. An offense needs the patience to not force the big play. On the flip side, good defenses will limit your big plays, because an offense that doesn't garner a big play (runs +15, passes +18), will probably be unable to string back to back medium gainers together.........
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Post by dubber on Mar 5, 2010 7:57:29 GMT -6
My #1 question is - Can they beat us with it? Yes - then I'll do something about it pretty quick depending on how often they run it and how many/easy they are getting the yards. No - then they can have it all day. But I will also say, as a DC, I'm not typically inclined to react to quickly even if a play is costing us 7-10 yds a time, so long as they aren't just running it over and over and over. It's been my experience that most OC's will go away from it. Too many toys in the toy box. This is perfect insight into the defensive side of patience. It's on the offense to execute, so MAKE THEM DO IT. If I were to play a spread team, I'd give them (to an extent) the bubble. They can throw it when my apexed LB is just a little too much inside, and I will give them their 4 yards, because trying to take it away opens up so much else. However, when we face a team that thinks their 2 versus our 3 is going to work (vs. trips), we will be garnering enough yardage to make the exercise productive.
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Post by flexoption91 on Mar 5, 2010 8:22:32 GMT -6
Why is 6.12 a catch not productive?
As you said, we would all be really happy with a running back getting 6.12 a carry and if you are good enough at the bubble pass it is no more than a long hand off.
I would argue that if you are throwing the bubble 28 times a game and completing it 25 times at 6 yards a pop you are being productive....
Law of averages says that one or two of those bubbles should bust for a big gain and if not you need a new bubble guy or get better at blocking on the perimeter
There is always talk about how offensive cordinators are impatient and want to get the ball down the field as quickly as they can but I know a lot of defensive cordinators that are the same way. In all honesty, how many defensive cordinators are going to let that bubble be thrown in front of them 25 times without wanting to find a way to jump it? Even more, how many corners or safeties are going to sit back when they know the bubble is coming and not jump it?
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Post by blb on Mar 5, 2010 8:47:01 GMT -6
Lloyd Carr was speaking at a clinic when he was coaching DBs for Bo and said in a particular coverage they were going to give up the TE Cross at 4-6 yards.
Don Nehlen, who had coached at U-M before taking over at West Virginia, spoke next.
First thing he said was, "Give up the TE Cross...I'll tell you what's going to happen. After they hit that Cross two or three times, Bo is going to go up to him and say, 'I don't know what you're doing, but you better do something else!' "
Always need a Plan B.
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Post by coachwoodall on Mar 5, 2010 9:27:09 GMT -6
I don't ever want a DB to try and take away a bubble route. If the offense wants to complete passes behind the LOS, then by all means go right ahead. Because as soon as we jump the bubble, then the offense will fake the bubble and run a stalk and go with #1.
The tunnel screen, now that will bother me a little more.
On the lines of the title, yes the OC that can keep the lid on box and hold his water will drive you nuts on defense.
On the flip side, I am probably a little impatient and tend to force the issue a little, but then that fits our style/philosophy.
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Post by flexoption91 on Mar 5, 2010 10:29:14 GMT -6
I understand what you are saying about about the averages but what I think it is important is that it tells me I can move the chains throwing the bubble. 14 times I am getting ahead of the chains. I also look at the points they put up and that tells me I can put enough points on the board to win throwing a lot of bubbles.
I also think this instance really helps prove how important the KISS idea is. You can run 28 bubbles and still put 28 points on the board, that is pretty impressive.
My biggest issue with the case at hand would be the defense giving up 42....it doesn't matter if you are running bubbles or go routes if you are giving up that much you are not going to win many games....
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Post by dubber on Mar 5, 2010 22:21:06 GMT -6
Jesus H - www.hanover.edu/docs/athletics/hfb09-frkl.htmThat's F'in rediculous - 995 yds of total combined offense??!!! BTW - 28 of the 92 plays were bubble - which is only about 30% of their total plays. LOL. Actually by the stat sheet, I didn't comb through it thoroughly, I do not see how Franklin scored 42, let alone be up 28-7 at half. Part of the deal was two picks by Hanover..... Also, I think the writer of this story made an error that gives us insight. Hanover's QB passed for over 300 yards, but the Team stat line only has the Panthers for 200 yards. Could be a typo.............or, it could be the guy writing this story and keeping his own stats took an NFL approach to it and counted Sacks against Team passing yardage. At any rate, I submit Hanover put themselves into some longer 3rd down conversion situations, and that made the difference. flexoption91, I responded in a previous post about why 6.12 yards a reception is bad and counter-productive.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 6, 2010 9:26:56 GMT -6
From an offensive perspective, it all depends on WHO we're getting that screen or short route to. If you're doing everything you can to create a mismatch of any kind, I think that patience is in order. You're getting the ball to an athlete out in space; see what he can do with it. But, if you're not getting mismatches, then I think it's time to mix it up a bit; but still work off of what you've been doing. Throw some slants or or different 'sucker' packages off of that bubble screen and see what happen. But, honestly, even if you do have the mismatches; I think had run five schemes off of the bubble and twenty bubble screens, they may have been more productive. It needs to be viewed as series football; you're doing some damage with the screens, but if you need to take advantage of the defensive response to those screens.
But, this is all coming from the perspective of someone who ran veer for a long time. You HAVE to be patient with this offense. You're going to get your 4-5 yards a run, but you really need to focus on the fact that it only takes one good pitch phase of the scheme to blow everything wide open. And, that's outside of the PA potential. You're going to end up running ISV/OSV 20+ times a game, it's something that you have to live with. Even when you're down, you keep after it, mix in more PA and 3 step stuff and pick up some big gains.
I have seen SBV teams that were totally stalemated with respect to ISV/OSV, but a few complimentary plays and PA won them the game.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 6, 2010 9:34:12 GMT -6
My #1 question is - Can they beat us with it? Yes - then I'll do something about it pretty quick depending on how often they run it and how many/easy they are getting the yards. No - then they can have it all day. But I will also say, as a DC, I'm not typically inclined to react to quickly even if a play is costing us 7-10 yds a time, so long as they aren't just running it over and over and over. It's been my experience that most OC's will go away from it. Too many toys in the toy box. This is my experience as well. We played a Wing T team last year that was gashing us with their FB on Belly and traps off of the rocket and jet play. BUT, we forced a couple of three and outs and they went away from it. They went to the sweeps, which is obviously sound, but after a couple of tackles for a loss, they got out of it. They were chucking the ball all over the field and dug themselves into a hole. Some OCs seem to have a short-term memory come game time. Had the fellow I described above had more patience, he would've been in a lot better position. But, chucking it around resulted in 5 picks and then you can't be patient anymore.
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Post by blb on Mar 6, 2010 9:46:04 GMT -6
Many play callers (and I have been guilty of this myself) will go away from a play once it's been unsuccessful two or three times in a game.
Sometimes it just takes a blocking or other adjustment to get it going, others just better execution or in case of power teams, wearing down the defense.
And sometimes, as cb noted, you can run complimentary stuff based on how defense is stopping that one play. If they adjust, you may be able to come back to it and be successful later in game.
One good reason why you need reliable spotter-recorder in booth and to communicate with offensive lineman when they're off field.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 6, 2010 11:48:28 GMT -6
Many play callers (and I have been guilty of this myself) will go away from a play once it's been unsuccessful two or three times in a game. Sometimes it just takes a blocking or other adjustment to get it going, others just better execution or in case of power teams, wearing down the defense. And sometimes, as cb noted, you can run complimentary stuff based on how defense is stopping that one play. If they adjust, you may be able to come back to it and be successful later in game. One good reason why you need reliable spotter-recorder in booth and to communicate with offensive lineman when they're off field. You know, even if it is working, I'd still hit all of those complimentary plays. If you're gashing them on Belly Dive, might as well come back to the sweep as often as you can; something has to be break. Take the DCs for a ride.
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Post by blb on Mar 6, 2010 16:21:55 GMT -6
cb makes another good point. Sometimes the kids make the adjustment(s) on their own to make a play go after being foiled once or twice!
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