ko49
Sophomore Member
Posts: 117
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Post by ko49 on Feb 24, 2010 6:31:00 GMT -6
There's been a lot of conversation in the media lately about Tim Tebow's NFL readiness, and more and more I'm hearing journalists and talking heads insist that Florida somehow did him a disservice by not preparing him better for the NFL game. I'm curious what people on this board think about this. As coaches, whether it be on the high school or college level, is our obligation first and foremost to win games or should we also be preparing our players for "the next level?" Are the two mutually exclusive? Can we do both and not subvert the interests of the team? Thoughts?
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Post by davecisar on Feb 24, 2010 6:56:55 GMT -6
The college coach is judged on how many games he wins or loses. Less than 5% of DI college kids on scholarship will ever play a down in the NFL. If a kid wants to play for an NFL prep-school there are plenty of them out there that run an NFL type offense. Paul Johnson and those not running NFL offenses are not evil, they are good college coaches doing what college coaches are paid to do, win college football games and providing a great college football experience for college students, putting fans in the seats and winning ball games. JMO
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 24, 2010 7:02:45 GMT -6
I agree...It's not a college coach's duty to prepare players for the NFL by running prostyle offenses. They are paid to win games period.
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Post by Luther Van Dam on Feb 24, 2010 7:15:59 GMT -6
Tebow has a Heisman Torphy, Two National Championships, and is one of the greatest to ever play college football. He will have a shot to prove himself in the NFL. I would say Florida did pretty well for him.
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Post by brophy on Feb 24, 2010 7:21:20 GMT -6
Combine starts tomorrow so the "need-to-fil-dead-air-with-something" may die down.
Of course, every period where there is non-play will be filled with Jimmy Sportswriter speculating about something he spent a minute 'researching' (brain storming for a headline deadline)
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 24, 2010 7:26:03 GMT -6
The media plays a huge role in a players draft stock in my opinion and they are very hypocritical of themselves. Lets start with Colt Brennan from a couple years ago. Had outstanding numbers, very accurate, etc. But the knock on him was the level of competition. Dan Lefevour from Central Michigan played less competition than Brennan did, did not have the same numbers, he is a Tebow type player in the MAC yet is projected higher than Tebow in the Draft? Doesn't make sense. Take Snead from the SEC, same competition as Tebow but does not have the numbers like Tebow, yet rated higher than Tebow? Doesn't make sense. Yea Tebow had a great surrounding cast but he still put up amazing numbers this year with less to work with than the previous two years. He had roughly 4 Ints this year. Snead had about 18. Then there is Sam Bradford who excelled the previous year with one of the best O-Lines ever. I do not see how he is the #1 Qb in the draft. He is going to be a huge bust. I guess what I am getting at is that the media picks and chooses who they want to blow up and it has a huge impact on swaying opinions.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 24, 2010 7:31:25 GMT -6
I listen to Mike & Mike in the morning and Golic was adamant about them doing Tebow a disservice by not fixing his throwing motion.
I think Meyer and the FLA boys did great with what they had- they got a phenom athlete to play QB at D1's highest level, be successful (arguably the best college football player of all time), and win 2 championships & a Heisman...WOW. So what the kid doesn't have a tight throwing motion- he's a winner and a leader and the Gators did just fine with him at the helm.
Besides, a bigtime pro-style QB wouldn't go to UF anyway...look at their track record! When was the last time UF had a successful NFL QB? Pro style guys should go Pac 10 or (ahemm...) BIG 10 BABY!
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Post by superpower on Feb 24, 2010 7:34:12 GMT -6
Tebow has a Heisman Torphy, Two National Championships, and is one of the greatest to ever play college football. He will have a shot to prove himself in the NFL. I would say Florida did pretty well for him. And a free education
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 24, 2010 7:36:03 GMT -6
Another point to make is that wouldn't an NFL OC or HC utilize his player's stregths? Tom Brady is back in the shotgun probly 80% of the time. He obviously feels comfortable that way. Why wouldn't teh team that drafts Tebow do the samething? It doesn't mean he has to run out of the gun but utilize his talents.
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Post by blb on Feb 24, 2010 7:36:22 GMT -6
Who was it held the gun to his head made Tebow choose Florida during the recruiting process?
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 24, 2010 7:39:52 GMT -6
If you look at Urban Meyey's previous teams offensive identities, like when Leak was the QB before Tebow or when Meyer was coaching Utah the offense was still spread out and primarily Gun but it was a much more Pass oriented offense with the QB far less involved in the run game. Meyer used Tebow to the best of his ability...just like any good coach should.
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Post by illiniwek on Feb 24, 2010 7:48:48 GMT -6
The college coach is judged on how many games he wins or loses. Less than 5% of DI college kids on scholarship will ever play a down in the NFL. If a kid wants to play for an NFL prep-school there are plenty of them out there that run an NFL type offense. Paul Johnson and those not running NFL offenses are not evil, they are good college coaches doing what college coaches are paid to do, win college football games and providing a great college football experience for college students, putting fans in the seats and winning ball games. JMO Completely agree Dave. Not much I can add to that, other than to say that if a player has proven himself in the college ranks, he will get a shot in the NFL. Regardless of where he gets drafted, Tebow will get a shot, and in my opinion, that's all you can ask for.
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sbv
Sophomore Member
Posts: 171
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Post by sbv on Feb 24, 2010 7:48:48 GMT -6
Spos21ram, when comparing nfl potential it is important to look at a lot more than stats. Just because Tim Tebow had better stats against the same competition than Snead, doesn't make Tebow a better QB. And as far as Colt Brennen being compared to Lefevour remember that Brennen was a QB in the run and shoot, an offense that uses short passes instead of a running game, where CMU runs a spread. As far as comparing Lefevour with Tebow, look how the two did at the Senior Bowl, in the same system vs the same players.
On a side note, it is humorous to compare Tebow and Snead because during their senior year of high school Snead had verbally committed to Florida. As Florida picked up its recruiting efforts of another QB from Florida, Tim Tebow, Snead questioned Urban Meyer about recruiting another incoming QB and he told him that they were bringing Tebow in to be a TE (compliments of the book "Meat Market"). Snead goes to Texas and misses the starting spot, which goes to redshirt freshman Colt McCoy, transfers to Ole Miss and things work out for him.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 24, 2010 7:55:21 GMT -6
I know there is more than numbers to determine NFL potential but what else could Tebow have done? A heisman winner, 2 national championships, threw for over 9,000 yards, 88 TD passes to only 16 INT's which is amazing, almost 3,000 yards rushing and 57 rushing tds. And this is against SEC talent. What's this kid gotta do? He honestly could not have done much else. We all know he needs to work a little on mechanics but what would better mechanics have done for him? maybe throw 2 INT's a year instead of 5?
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Post by wingt74 on Feb 24, 2010 7:57:39 GMT -6
Urban Meyer also knows deep down, Tebow is not an NFL QB...so why fix what's not broken.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 24, 2010 8:11:30 GMT -6
Urban Meyer also knows deep down, Tebow is not an NFL QB...so why fix what's not broken. Meyer should be declared the best coach of all time then since he got those numbers and championships out of the SEC out of a kid thats not NFL quality.
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jw8
Sophomore Member
Posts: 154
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Post by jw8 on Feb 24, 2010 8:31:40 GMT -6
I think there was talk about Florida working with Tim on his throwing motion. They said that he just felt more natural/successful throwing the way he did. I think to blame Florida for a players mechanics is interesting. Florida did not teach him that motion. It was not part of their offensive plan. We coach up all of our kids to do things the "right" way but some just do not play at what is call "textbook" form. I would assume that Florida worked on the mechanics to be a good passer. Also did Meyer not produce a high draft choice at QB not to long ago...... Bet he has not changed his ability to coach up QBs the last few years.
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sbv
Sophomore Member
Posts: 171
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Post by sbv on Feb 24, 2010 8:33:12 GMT -6
So what should happen if GT wins a national championship with all of those non-NFL talent kids?
What Tebow could have done to be a better NFL prospect and help his chances was to give up on QB his freshman year of high school and become the best TE or LB he could be. I personally like Tim Tebow and hope he will become a good QB because I like who he is as a person. Urban Meyer got a kid who could run HIS system and Tebow fit like a glove. This doesn't make Urban Meyer a great coach (although other things do) or Tebow a great NFL prospect. All it means is that Tebow fit the system. How he turns out as an NFL player will have no impact on how he played his 4 years of college football. Your argument is similar to Scott Frost from Nebraska. He was a champion QB in college and put up great numbers but had to be moved to Safety because he wasn't an NFL style QB. All these kids can do is to pick a college, and then run the system that they are told to run.
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Post by wingtol on Feb 24, 2010 8:53:40 GMT -6
If you follow that logic, that Florida did Tebow an diservice, then all high school coaches should be running the same system's to prepare their players for college ball. A coaches job is to win. Utilize their players the best way to produce wins for the team.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 24, 2010 9:01:19 GMT -6
Bottom line, the 'scouting service media' tends to forget about the intangibles involved in an athlete; intelligence, leadership qualities, work ethic, etc... They don't focus on the facts that with a little bit of coaching, Tebow and many other athletes (TOM BRADY) have the potential to not only play at the next level and actually do some fantastic things. All they look at is :
A) What is showing up on film; something that they don't have a clue how to decipher. B) They're 'knowledge' of the game, which is ridiculously overrated. C) Echoing with other sports writers have stated; they're like a bunch of parrots.
Even when they get the tangible aspects from the combine, they still won't have a clue how a player will develop.. I mean, we're talking about kids that just hit their 20s; they've got a few more years to develop.
And, as far as Florida 'hindering' Tebow; that's bullsh-t. He set numerous college records, won NTs, along with a Heisman. So what if he throws the ball side-arm; that's something a QB coach can fix between now and the fall.
Bottom line; sports writers are there to write about 'controversies' and to appeal to the 'Football For Dummies' crowd. I worked with a guy who, because of his subscriptions to SI and ESPN Mag. and the fact that his brother-in-law played D1AA ball,was sure that he was an expert on football. I hated working with him.. I would hear all kinds of moronic crap; "The Tampa C2 is a crap defense, "The spread is the only effective offense in football," "The option is a dad offense..." Frickin' idiot; it got to the point where you couldn't even argue with him; no matter what you say or did, he knew the sport's writers were right and everyone else was wrong.
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Post by mariner42 on Feb 24, 2010 9:25:39 GMT -6
Nope!
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ko49
Sophomore Member
Posts: 117
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Post by ko49 on Feb 24, 2010 9:26:30 GMT -6
I agree with so many of you, that Tebow prospered in Florida's system and in no way should they be accused of hindering his development. But we had an interesting scenario a few years back at the high school where I coach that relates a bit. Our tailback (Pro-I offense) was a big banger -- 6'1, 215 -- and we had a lot of success running him between the tackles. He racked up over 2,500 yards for his career, made all-league twice and helped us win a lot of games. But because we gave him the ball 25-30 times a game and he took a real pounding, we only played him one way. When colleges came in to recruit him, they all felt he was too slow to be a college TB and they wanted him to play linebacker instead. But because there wasn't any film of him at LB, some schools shied away. Long story short, he wound up getting a partial scholarship to a I-AA school, but the father was critical of us and believed that if we'd played him at LB he would have gotten a full D-1 ride. I still maintain that we did the right thing, but I admit that I've thought more than once about whether we should have featured him more at the position he was likely to play in college.
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Post by Yash on Feb 24, 2010 9:34:33 GMT -6
If Meyer puts Tebow back there, changes his throwing motion, throws the ball 50 times a game when Tebow was a sophomore, Florida goes 7-5, 8-4 and never wins a heisman. Possibly doesn't win a national championship as a junior. Meyer saw a kid that had abilities and used his skillset to best meet the needs of the team. I find it to be great coaching that he was able to adapt a kid that maybe didn't have the throwing motion of an NFL QB. Let's remember, Alex Smith was the number 1 pick of the draft in 2005 under Meyer's system. Tebow has more heismans more national titles, and (i haven't looked) but probably better college stats than Alex Smith. Does that mean that he is a better QB than Smith? I can't say that, but what I can say is that Meyer found a way to use both of those kids in ways that best fit their skill set. That is what a great coach does.
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Post by coachdubyah on Feb 24, 2010 11:00:28 GMT -6
I agree with the contradictions the media makes. The same year Colt Brennan was in the draft everyone made a stink about the level of competition that he played. Well the Ravens QB (Flacco) came out in the same year or the year after and everyone was all over him. My gosh the guy played at Delaware. Now he plays in a run domintated offense. Yet he is still considered a top QB in the NFL. The draft and scouting is a joke. Mel Kiper was talking about how Dwyer from Georgia Tech is a risk because of the "System" he played in. However, they then worrying about a RB carrying the ball 30 times a game. Tebow will be fine depending on where he goes. If you put him with a team that runs the ball constantly he will be fine. You throw an entire West Coast Offense at him and make him make all these decisions as a rookie you are setting yourself up for failure. Sanchez benefitted this year because the Jets could run the football.
Sorry if this got too fan oriented, but to me NFL football is going down the toilet.
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Coach Unk
Junior Member
[F4:coachdonjones]
Posts: 392
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Post by Coach Unk on Feb 24, 2010 11:19:11 GMT -6
I agree...It's not a college coach's duty to prepare players for the NFL by running prostyle offenses. They are paid to win games period. I agree 100%
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 24, 2010 11:40:20 GMT -6
You cant even compare Scott Frost to Tim Tebow. Frost threw for roughly 1,000 yards his senior year where Tebow was 3 times that.
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Post by coachguy83 on Feb 24, 2010 11:54:18 GMT -6
I think Tim Tebow can play QB in the NFL in three years. I would draft him no higher than the second round and use him as a change of pace player while he developes into a good QB. The young man is an athletic freak, he's highly intelligent, and he is a great leader. I think if you put him in a situation with a good QB coach and a veteran ahead of him on the depth chart he will thrive in time.
Florida didn't do him a disservice beccause they made the kid a winner and got his name out there, which may not have happened had he gone somewhere else. Tebow is a kid with a hugh upside and great intangibles.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 24, 2010 12:06:26 GMT -6
I agree with the contradictions the media makes. The same year Colt Brennan was in the draft everyone made a stink about the level of competition that he played. Well the Ravens QB (Flacco) came out in the same year or the year after and everyone was all over him. My gosh the guy played at Delaware. Now he plays in a run domintated offense. Yet he is still considered a top QB in the NFL. The draft and scouting is a joke. Mel Kiper was talking about how Dwyer from Georgia Tech is a risk because of the "System" he played in. However, they then worrying about a RB carrying the ball 30 times a game. Tebow will be fine depending on where he goes. If you put him with a team that runs the ball constantly he will be fine. You throw an entire West Coast Offense at him and make him make all these decisions as a rookie you are setting yourself up for failure. Sanchez benefitted this year because the Jets could run the football. Sorry if this got too fan oriented, but to me NFL football is going down the toilet. I heard this and I just friggin laughed... Had Dwyer been in a 'Pro Style attack', he would have still been a good RB. He's big (6'0, 228), he's fast, and moreover, he's a hard running, gutsy ball carrier. Again, they don't take the intangibles into consideration; the guy runs HARD, period. Look at the other Adrian Peterson; a Georgia Southern fullback under PJ back in the late 90s. He is now playing for the Bears. He hasn't had a 'storied' career, but he has the ability to play in the NFL.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 24, 2010 12:21:52 GMT -6
I guess what I don't understand is why people aren't looking at Tebow's strengths... I mean, why not draft him as a QB and run some single wing schemes with him? Every NFL scheme has a an Iso, Power, and an IZ play; let the dude run with the ball a little bit. It's not like it's a huge departure from any of their offenses; the guy is big enough, strong enough and runs hard enough to barrel through the tackles; give him a shot at it.
But, IMO, nobody knows how successful a college athlete will be at the NFL level until they put him in there on Sunday afternoons, put the ball in his hands, and see what he does.
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Post by bouncingboredom on Feb 24, 2010 12:34:09 GMT -6
In my blog (not that I'm promoting it or anything ) I did a post yesterday mentioning that if Tebow spends too much time on correcting his motion he may lose some of his natural throwing rhthymn, which will affect his passing. I firmly believe that Tebow will succeed in the NFL due to his leadership and hard work, combined with his natural quality as a football player. If I'm a head coach looking for a QB, I take Tebow and shock, horror.... I stick him in the gun where he's most natural. If you're that concerned about him taking the ball from under center, then work on it a little in practice over the course of the season until he's ready. As for the general assumption that his throwing motion is "wrong", look at Favre. Favre has one of the most un-technical throws I've ever seen. He often has a low wind up and his release looks like something right out of Major League Baseball. Technique wise it's a disaster sweeping in after an apocalypse. But he's still pretty good at throwing.....
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