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Post by kcbazooka on Jan 9, 2010 7:41:37 GMT -6
I'm going to backpedal right off the start and say that I know nothing has been proven against Mangino, Leach, and Leavitt - and I question the timing of each, but if what they are accused of is true ...
Is anyone else kinda embarrassed by these situations? Coaches are often painted in an unfavorable light and these actions confirm the worst in the public perception of coaches.
I'm not a saint but I've coached +30 years and I've never grabbed a player by the throat and slapped him. Never did the stuff Mangino was accused of - never did what Leach did with the James kid (why didn't he just boot him off the practice field if James was being a jerk?)
To me, this is has been a low point of coaching that effects all levels of coaching...
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Post by blb on Jan 9, 2010 7:51:27 GMT -6
I'm going to backpedal right off the start and say that I know nothing has been proven against Mangino, Leach, and Leavitt - and I question the timing of each, but if what they are accused of is true ... Is anyone else kinda embarrassed by these situations? Coaches are often painted in an unfavorable light and these actions confirm the worst in the public perception of coaches. I'm not a saint but I've coached +30 years and I've never grabbed a player by the throat and slapped him. Never did the stuff Mangino was accused of - never did what Leach did with the James kid (why didn't he just boot him off the practice field if James was being a jerk?) To me, this is has been a low point of coaching that effects all levels of coaching... Absolutely, points well-taken and expressed. A lot of the public already viewed HS football coaches as Bud Kilmers. Episodes such as these affect perception to the worse for all of us. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jan 9, 2010 7:53:33 GMT -6
Not only am I embarassed when this sort of thing happens I am further embarassed when allegations are proven to be true and the guys get hired at some other institution. I know of a coach who was "into" the cheerleaders at one school, lost his job and within a year or two got another coaching job at a big school. hes got a name, they liked his win loss record so he got the job over aa whole lot of other candidates who dont have that history of leaving stains wherever they go.
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Post by jackedup on Jan 9, 2010 9:39:27 GMT -6
Does anyone else find themselves defending the profession when incidents like these come out? I've been asked a lot lately about my opinions these matters and I just feel like I have to defend them to some degree because we share the same profession, just different levels.
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Post by blb on Jan 9, 2010 9:43:03 GMT -6
Does anyone else find themselves defending the profession when incidents like these come out? I've been asked a lot lately about my opinions these matters and I just feel like I have to defend them to some degree because we share the same profession, just different levels. Yes, but I don't defend them, just the profession. |
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Post by unc31 on Jan 9, 2010 9:50:42 GMT -6
I was telling my wife last night that this stuff will trickle down to the HS level to a degree that we have never seen. I can see parents challenging coaches for raising their voice to their son and accusing them of verbal abuse. May sound far fetched but just wait and see.
We never allow profanity of any kind, but I don't think it would have to be profanity for some of these parents to go trotting down to the Superintendents office with threats of a law suit, especially if some kid is reprimanded in front of the team.
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Post by lochness on Jan 9, 2010 10:12:19 GMT -6
I was telling my wife last night that this stuff will trickle down to the HS level to a degree that we have never seen. I can see parents challenging coaches for raising their voice to their son and accusing them of verbal abuse. May sound far fetched but just wait and see. We never allow profanity of any kind, but I don't think it would have to be profanity for some of these parents to go trotting down to the Superintendents office with threats of a law suit, especially if some kid is reprimanded in front of the team. You're crazy if you think this isn't already happening. All it takes is one disgruntled self-righteous parent. Trust me. |
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Post by John Knight on Jan 9, 2010 10:24:18 GMT -6
I was more embarrassed when they flashed the million dollar graphic (Saban vs Brown) during during the NC game.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Jan 9, 2010 10:33:26 GMT -6
I hope the mods will allow this to stay up, but if not, I understand.
Anyway, there are odd similarities with these three guys,
Mangino, Leach, and Leavitt.
-Been at their "former" schools for a while
-Highly ranked teams a few years ago, not as successful this year
-Unusual personality traits (*for a non-coach)
-Considered to have done "rude" things to player(s)
-Parents involved in the process and in the media
-All cut quickly (maybe before lawyers could get to work?)
-All owed money (*I don't know about Mangino)
Seems that any of these guys could have been interchangble at each other's program and still gotten the boot.
Again, I'm not saying anything these guys did was right, not at all, it's just strange how similar their situations are.
OJW
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Post by superpower on Jan 9, 2010 11:02:29 GMT -6
And I think they were all asst. coaches under Bill Snyder in his first tenure at Kansas State.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Jan 9, 2010 11:30:50 GMT -6
I know this is a hijack, sorry, disregard if needed:
Unc31, like you posted.
I had the same feeling this year, and talked to my staff about it.
After coming off a dream season in '08, I got the nightmare one in '09. I realized right away that we would be terrible, just lost too much talent to transfer.
After our 2nd loss, I began to notice that the losses were getting to us emotionally. I started talking to the guys about how we needed to "dial-back the volume."
I told them that at practice we needed to work harder than ever, but during the games we needed lower the volume and our antics. Don't lower the work or emotion, lower their antics.
I felt that when you are losing, people are just looking for trouble. They want an excuse as to why you are losing.
It's not that "my little Johnny isn't any good," it would be, "there's something wrong with these coaches."
"There's got to be something wrong with the coaches or we wouldn't be losing." I didn't want that.
So, I talked to the staff at least twice a week and definately before the games: "Don't give these parents anything to talk about." "Be gracious" "Be careful in touching the kids" "don't give them any ammo against us" "Watch your rants, but coach hard." Were some of the things I said.
I know it was hard on us, I'm a hat throwing, stomping, spitting kinda' guy and we all are.
But I knew that people would be just looking for trouble.
I didn't want to give them anything to pin on us.
It was hard, but I feel like this was one of my small accomplishments in a dismal season.
Everybody thinks that when you are losing you are not working hard, we all know that's crap.
John Gruden told me that during his 5-11 season after Tampa Bay's Superbowl season, that he worked harder in that season than he did during the Superbowl run.
We all know this is true.
OJW
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jan 9, 2010 11:54:14 GMT -6
I relate to your post outlaw, we worked our tails off and some of it was just to repair the damage done by comments made or teasing and doing damage control to bruised egos and what not. You are right, folks want to know "whats wrong" even when its pretty obvious, lack of depth, lack of talent, too many injuries to covercome and too many freshmen and sophs out there. They will never get it, when these kids are jrs and srs they are going to be terrific.
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Post by coachks on Jan 9, 2010 12:20:48 GMT -6
It definately gives us all a poor image, and is a definite cause for concern in our profession. I think Mangino deserved to be fired for how he was treating his players, he was way, way over the line. However, how long before coaches are getting fired for flirting with that line....because there is now precedent for firing a coach for being a meanie head.
Outisde of Leach, who I think was fired for other reasons, these coaches were in the wrong (if true obviously). You don't get to assault people (verbally or physically).
We have a rule at our school, you don't rip the kid you rip his action. We don't call a kid a lazy or stupid....we tell him his action was stupid because he was being lazy. We might yell it, and it might be public but we don't insult the kid himself. It's also not an everyday thing.
I've heard a lot of these incidents explained away as "Their college kids"....alright, but would you let your boss talk to you that way? Airraider and his dilema is a great example. A lot of people are saying that's unacceptable, we wouldn't let the principal treat us like that ect. ect.... when the principal isn't even insulting him (directly that is).
Sure, football is different...and dealing with teenagers is a different situation. That's doesn't mean verbal assault is alright. There is a line between getting attention and correcting an action and assault.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 9, 2010 12:33:24 GMT -6
I think it shows that your average high school coaches really don't have that much in common with big-time collegiate coaches and the NFL.
Regardless of what is said about promoting student-athletes, molding young men, and being a role model, the bottom line in big-money football is winning. At the end of the day, the boosters, fans, alumni, and administration really don't care if the coach teaches his players "life lessons"...all that matters is success on the field.
Honestly, that's why I don't watch a whole lot of college football anymore and really don't care for listening to big-time college coaches at clinics. I just don't have that much in common with those guys. I have a lot more to learn from other high school coaches and youth coaches who work in the same world that I do.
Obviously, this is a broad generalization and there are some truely good guys out there, but the inherent nature of big-money football leads to these kinds of excesses happening.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jan 9, 2010 12:38:00 GMT -6
Even small schools have groups in the community who are all about "just win baby"...
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Post by 19delta on Jan 9, 2010 12:40:10 GMT -6
Even small schools have groups in the community who are all about "just win baby"... Of course. That's why I said I was making broad generalizations. |
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 9, 2010 12:47:07 GMT -6
There are people who act like A-holes in every profession.
I try not to let it bother me.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 9, 2010 13:03:37 GMT -6
and a guy like Bobby is run out of the game. Sad!!!!!!
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 10, 2010 5:40:32 GMT -6
and a guy like Bobby is run out of the game. Sad!!!!!! Exactly. |
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Post by coachjd on Jan 10, 2010 7:25:42 GMT -6
Did these coaches do some things to put themselves in situations to be fired. Probably. Did the schools, the admin, the parents and players do somethings to blow things out of proportion? I don't know, I'm leaning to yes. There are 2 sides to every story. There are some serious behind the scene stories floating around about Texas Tech. Even politics may be in play.
I think Outlaw hit some good points. When things are not going very well, don't give them reasons.
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Post by airmale on Jan 10, 2010 9:49:26 GMT -6
I disagree. This will not trickle down. It has trickled up.
Got into it at my last job for practicing too hard. I asked was anybody mistreated? No. Are we poor role models? No. Is there a particular complaint? No. Then why are we having this conversation? Well, we just need to remember these kids aren't used to this. Did you ever think that is why we are unsuccessful? Ofcourse not.
It is the change in the school situation. We now have principals that have never run a program of any kind. Not even department heads. Mine was a band member. Band practices outrageous hours. Makes outrageous demands on kids and parents. We don't want to let kids out of practice homecoming week to practice walking to the middle of the field and waving 3 times that week. And we are going too hard.
My AD was the worst female swim coach in history. Didn't even make practice more than once a week. She gets promoted to AD because everyone liked her. She hasn't got a clue.
My players gave every excuse to miss practice from babysitting, to the only day my dad could take me to the mall to get new shoes. Try to discipline and they run to the principal and he honey babies them.
Kids quit to enjoy homecoming week and then demanded to be let back on the team the next week. Principal supported them!
We all left. Imagine that.
These kids a coddled, and we can't understand why they can't compete in the real world. And some kid makes an accusation and we suffer.
I think we would all be smarter to play golf everyday. But, I know I am not that smart. I'll just get cookies and milk for the sidelines and a snuggie for every player during video sessions.
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Post by bigm0073 on Jan 10, 2010 11:21:19 GMT -6
What exactly did these coaches do that was so terrible?
Do we not find it ironic that the biggest complainer was a 3rd string WR who has a father that is a former wealth football player and anounces on ESPN...
Sounds like their was an agenda to me.
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Post by saintrad on Jan 10, 2010 12:08:41 GMT -6
never did what Leach did with the James kid (why didn't he just boot him off the practice field if James was being a jerk?) . Everyone outside of the situation is assuming that he didn't send him off the field (multiple times) and this was some point of escalation, or that daddy didn't get too involved. |
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Coach H
Sophomore Member
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Post by Coach H on Jan 10, 2010 12:48:21 GMT -6
Coach,
I fill for all families involved
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Post by bigm0073 on Jan 10, 2010 12:59:52 GMT -6
Absolutely... The Leach family especially got railroaded... What a shame for them.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 10, 2010 13:54:20 GMT -6
Absolutely... The Leach family especially got railroaded... What a shame for them. The shame is for the asst. and staff members that will be affected by this. I don't feel too bad for Leach as he was in complete control of his actions here. Obviously the actions weren't something the Geneva convention needs to investigate like much of the media made it seem, but they were still something that a reasonable person away from the action could see would end bad. There are a lot of families that will be affected by this who had no control of the situation. Leach had complete control. |
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Post by coachnorm on Jan 10, 2010 14:07:03 GMT -6
We have a rule at our school, you don't rip the kid you rip his action. We don't call a kid a lazy or stupid....we tell him his action was stupid because he was being lazy. We might yell it, and it might be public but we don't insult the kid himself. It's also not an everyday thing. I learned a long time ago from a couple of hard core old school coaches that I've coached with and played under that if you have to get after a kid, then before practice ends, find a reason to compliment him. Metaphorically speaking a slap up side the head should always be followed by a big hug. Love 'em up when they're doing good and let 'em know when they're f'in up, but you've got to get production out of even the worst of your players so you'd better not shatter their confidence. |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 10, 2010 15:16:35 GMT -6
I'm not embarrassed, I'm learning from the situations.
1. No matter what is going on, no matter how much of a pain in the neck a kid is, his welfare comes first, period. If he's disruptive, get rid of him.
2. Cover your butt in every aspect possible; watch your mouth, work with the administration and the parents, etc..
3. Be a professional at all times; even off of the field. Now, we all like to go out and celebrate after a win, but getting falling down drunk isn't acceptable. This really applies to clinics as well; I see a lot of coaches that just hit the bars for three days when they're at clinics.
4. Remember that you're always being scrutinized, by every angle, but don't let it bother you. If some sports writer is being a tool or if some parents are slamming you on a jag-off message board they've set up, just ignore it.
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