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Post by airraider on Dec 31, 2009 12:26:04 GMT -6
With Air Force having their way today.. and with Navy going to hand it to Mizzo , and a big GT win.. we all may end up seeing a lot more option next year.. which scares this out of me..
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Post by superpower on Dec 31, 2009 12:29:15 GMT -6
Because most states use Federation rules, I don't expect to see a huge increase in teams running the option because they can't cut outside of the free blocking zone.
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Post by mariner42 on Dec 31, 2009 12:35:17 GMT -6
For whatever reason, option seems to be taboo in our league. I'm not complaining, in fact I think that's the reason we should run it (plus I just like the play style).
I think GT will be the one who brings about an influx of flexbone teams if they can sustain their success for the next few years, and I really believe they will. What will be interesting to me is the question of whether or not they'll influence more and more coaches into wanting to cut block on the perimeter and a rule change.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 31, 2009 12:47:52 GMT -6
At the HS level, I don't know that we'll see 'true' flexbone or SBV offenses popping up. People are still very much in love with the SG spread concept. Around here, I imagine that we'll see more teams dabbling in the veer and midline, adding to their spread packages. I don't think that they'll sell out to the veer/midline philosophy and as such, they'll struggle.
Plus, I have seen very few coaches that understand what these offenses entail, the time and effort it takes to get it right. Even if they do kick over to the offense completely, I don't know that it'll be run very well. I have seen it a lot at the lower classes around here; they want to be a veer/midline team, but they're flat out terrible at it. They're just to d-mn stubborn to go out, research the offense, and do it right.
I've seen two teams in the state that run the offense right and they are very good teams. But, I have seen far more teams that don't know the offense and it's obvious. The Xs and Os aren't sound, the meshes are bad and the pitches are worse. It's obvious that they don't spend the time that they need to on the simple stuff.
So, we'll see what happens.
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Post by gdn56 on Dec 31, 2009 13:39:16 GMT -6
I agree that a lot of teams in our league may try to incorporate it into what they do with out fully selling out to it. If this is the case, hopefully alot of them will put the ball on the ground. The spread obsession is still alive and well at the moment but it will be interesting to see how these offenses influence the game at the high school level over the next few years.
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Post by tog on Dec 31, 2009 13:41:07 GMT -6
the cut rule in the fed should be changed
it widens the talent gap it isn't effective for it's intended purpose and it is just lame
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Post by airman on Dec 31, 2009 13:45:31 GMT -6
personally I will be glad when power football makes the return. much, much easier attacking big, slow footed lbers who are set up to defend the run.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Dec 31, 2009 13:49:52 GMT -6
I'm with SP on this, the cut rule hurts the option terribly in the HS ranks. The one and only Flexbone team I face runs both Veer and Mid-line and they are tough bunch. However, they don't ever have a good record, but they are tough runners and rarely pitch. I was coaching when the rule change can about and every Veer and Wisbone Option coach that I knew was running the Wing-T or "I" the next year. Well, one team didn't but they were lousy anyway no matter if they were allowed cut-block or cut with a razorblade. OJW
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Post by phantom on Dec 31, 2009 13:54:23 GMT -6
Why does the cut rule hurt option teams more than other offenses? I assume that every offense has outsude running plays- sweep, stretch, whatever. Why does the cut rule hurt option more than those offenses?
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Post by PSS on Dec 31, 2009 13:59:47 GMT -6
Why does the cut rule hurt option teams more than other offenses? I assume that every offense has outsude running plays- sweep, stretch, whatever. Why does the cut rule hurt option more than those offenses? If you watch Navy today, watch the slot backs.
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rocket1
Sophomore Member
Posts: 146
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Post by rocket1 on Dec 31, 2009 14:00:42 GMT -6
Great question! Love to hear the answers to this one!
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Post by phantom on Dec 31, 2009 14:03:55 GMT -6
Why does the cut rule hurt option teams more than other offenses? I assume that every offense has outsude running plays- sweep, stretch, whatever. Why does the cut rule hurt option more than those offenses? If you watch Navy today, watch the slot backs. I have. The question stands.
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Post by airraider on Dec 31, 2009 14:07:50 GMT -6
Why does the cut rule hurt option teams more than other offenses? I assume that every offense has outsude running plays- sweep, stretch, whatever. Why does the cut rule hurt option more than those offenses? Because the guys on ESPN said so!!
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Post by PSS on Dec 31, 2009 14:18:11 GMT -6
Not having coached the flexbone but having to prepare for it several times over the years I have some insight on the philosophy. Playing cut blocks is not a big deal for us, we do it all the time. We teach technique to play off of cut blocks and make plays. When I played a flexbone team you had to put more emphasis into playing cut blocks. These teams want to get you on the ground and cut off pursuit.
2nd emphasis is that by cutting they create those running lanes with man blocking. This allows the ball carrier to have a running lane without having to cutback (which you can't do running the option). The ball carriers are running downhill in a clear running lane.
Now by cutting, again I emphasize it allows man blocking principals instead of zone blocking. It is much more difficult to man block someone up high that it is to cut them. I was an OT in college, believe me I know.
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Post by wildbunch on Dec 31, 2009 14:22:28 GMT -6
If you watch Navy today, watch the slot backs. I have. The question stands. Probably because the Option teams could be pitching on almost every play while other offenses may only use a sweep a small amount of the time. And a common defensive tactic is to force the pitch every time, so blocking it well becomes key. On top of that the pitch on option is generally going to develop more slowly than any type of sweep play so a stand-up block is hard to sustain compared to just getting that guy on the ground.
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Post by phantom on Dec 31, 2009 14:24:47 GMT -6
Not having coached the flexbone but having to prepare for it several times over the years I have some insight on the philosophy. Playing cut blocks is not a big deal for us, we do it all the time. We teach technique to play off of cut blocks and make plays. When I played a flexbone team you had to put more emphasis into playing cut blocks. These teams want to get you on the ground and cut off pursuit. 2nd emphasis is that by cutting they create those running lanes with man blocking. This allows the ball carrier to have a running lane without having to cutback (which you can't do running the option). The ball carriers are running downhill in a clear running lane. Now by cutting, again I emphasize it allows man blocking principals instead of zone blocking. It is much more difficult to man block someone up high that it is to cut them. I was an OT in college, believe me I know. Cut blocking along the LOS is legal in Federation. We do it all the time. Why is cut blocking outside of the FBZ considered so critical to option offenses?
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Post by airman on Dec 31, 2009 14:27:43 GMT -6
Not having coached the flexbone but having to prepare for it several times over the years I have some insight on the philosophy. Playing cut blocks is not a big deal for us, we do it all the time. We teach technique to play off of cut blocks and make plays. When I played a flexbone team you had to put more emphasis into playing cut blocks. These teams want to get you on the ground and cut off pursuit. 2nd emphasis is that by cutting they create those running lanes with man blocking. This allows the ball carrier to have a running lane without having to cutback (which you can't do running the option). The ball carriers are running downhill in a clear running lane. Now by cutting, again I emphasize it allows man blocking principals instead of zone blocking. It is much more difficult to man block someone up high that it is to cut them. I was an OT in college, believe me I know. Cut blocking along the LOS is legal in Federation. We do it all the time. Why is cut blocking outside of the FBZ considered so critical to option offenses? because it is hard for backside perimeter players to make a tackle when they are laying on the ground.
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Post by coachjm on Dec 31, 2009 14:31:36 GMT -6
It matters a ton for several reasons, I ran this offense in college and we like most option teams were awarded as LOS players for getting cut blocks. On all Dive phase, cutting LB's was highly effective as the dives hit quick and getting a LB on the ground allowed the ball to scoot by, also allowed undersized lineman to take hard angles and attack through knees. The perimeter concepts it is obvious the advantage that would exist in any offense. However, with the Flexbone playing smaller quick kids in the slot the cut block is a great equilizer against OLB's. Changing the cut block rules in high school football would enhance all schemes however, quick hitting dive schemes would benefit the most.
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Post by tog on Dec 31, 2009 14:33:49 GMT -6
i would think it has a lot to do with the types of players option teams--especially flexbone teams have on the edge---usually smaller/quicker type players that can get around on the orbit motion for the pitch and run the rocket----to have them block up high on other team's force or edge players is just a mismatch---them being able to cut closes the "talent" gap----or at least the size differential
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Post by PSS on Dec 31, 2009 14:35:47 GMT -6
It's the second level that critical, those slots and tkls getting to the second level and cutting LB's and safeties. That's the biggest difference. They cut LB's and safeties, not just DL.
You don't have to have the greatest speed in the backfield but if you take the defender to the ground and cut off pursuit, then your average speed can make big plays.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 31, 2009 14:36:09 GMT -6
Phantom in my opinion the cut block on outside running plays is the same for a toss team or an option team..but again IMO ...as a former flex guy...the biggest difference is the blocking by the slots when having to seal/load a ILB...if you are aligned w/in the framework of the tackles feet..you are allowed to cut an ILB from the outside in...this in IMO is a huge advantage because those slots can basically murder those guys hitting them on the side of the knees..many of these slots are little pi$$ants that could never hold a block above the waist..ps I coached in MA so the cut was legal PS...I don't think the tables will turn mostly because the offense is too slow to score for impatient OC's...also the parents don't like it because they can't "see" the ball....you can say what you want but if the poor "air raid" team has more rope to work with than the poor triple option team...Coaches inherently know this
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 31, 2009 14:39:58 GMT -6
Not having coached the flexbone but having to prepare for it several times over the years I have some insight on the philosophy. Playing cut blocks is not a big deal for us, we do it all the time. We teach technique to play off of cut blocks and make plays. When I played a flexbone team you had to put more emphasis into playing cut blocks. These teams want to get you on the ground and cut off pursuit. 2nd emphasis is that by cutting they create those running lanes with man blocking. This allows the ball carrier to have a running lane without having to cutback (which you can't do running the option). The ball carriers are running downhill in a clear running lane. Now by cutting, again I emphasize it allows man blocking principals instead of zone blocking. It is much more difficult to man block someone up high that it is to cut them. I was an OT in college, believe me I know. Cut blocking along the LOS is legal in Federation. We do it all the time. Why is cut blocking outside of the FBZ considered so critical to option offenses? Cut blocking does not require that the blocker overcome the leverage/position of the defensive player. This is especially useful in option schemes since there are two potential perimeter ball carriers. It allows a much smaller player to negate a bigger player (slotback on LB) for the QB phase, and it allows for an easier block in space (throwing at a players legs) regardless of leverage in the pitch phase.
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Post by khalfie on Dec 31, 2009 14:43:24 GMT -6
I'm with phantom...
There's a plethora of option teams in Illinois... that get it done extremely well without cutting outside the zone.
Stillman Valley, Com of Munderlein, Mt. Carmel... Carey Grove...
These teams are vicious...
If the options not working for you, its not the blocking rules fault.
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Post by phantom on Dec 31, 2009 14:44:16 GMT -6
Phantom in my opinion the cut block on outside running plays is the same for a toss team or an option team..but again IMO ...as a former flex guy...the biggest difference is the blocking by the slots when having to seal/load a ILB...if you are aligned w/in the framework of the tackles feet..you are allowed to cut an ILB from the outside in...this in IMO is a huge advantage because those slots can basically murder those guys hitting them on the side of the knees..many of these slots are little pi$$ants that could never hold a block above the waist..ps I coached in MA so the cut was legal PS...I don't think the tables will turn mostly because the offense is too slow to score for impatient OC's...also the parents don't like it because they can't "see" the ball....you can say what you want but if the poor "air raid" team has more rope to work with than the poor triple option team...Coaches inherently know this Sure, I understand that cut blocking makes it easier (as a DC I have to say that tackling would be MUCH easier if they'd just let us grab facemasks). Why is it considered critical, to the point that the inability to do it is a deal-breaker, to option teams? Are you really telling me that you can't run option without cutting?
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Post by coachplaa on Dec 31, 2009 14:48:21 GMT -6
I used to think it was for the safety of the defense, but now I think its for the safety of the blocker. Too many kids would put their head down to make a cut block, exposing themselves to a neck injury. It would be the same thing as teaching a low tackle to a DB...it sounds good on paper, but you'd better know how to teach it so your own kid doesn't hurt his neck if he hits a guys knee just right. Too scary and not worth the risk IMO.
Whether you teach open field blocking on options, or open field blocking on WR screens, a high screen block, body on body, is just as effective and I think has less chance to miss the defender. An open field block isn't only about getting the guy on the ground, it is about not allowing the defender to get to the ball carrier. A high block can be more efficient, safer, and just as effective.
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Post by tog on Dec 31, 2009 14:49:04 GMT -6
Cut blocking along the LOS is legal in Federation. We do it all the time. Why is cut blocking outside of the FBZ considered so critical to option offenses? Cut blocking does not require that the blocker overcome the leverage/position of the defensive player. This is especially useful in option schemes since there are two potential perimeter ball carriers. It allows a much smaller player to negate a bigger player (slotback on LB) for the QB phase, and it allows for an easier block in space (throwing at a players legs) regardless of leverage in the pitch phase. exactly---this is one of the reasons the rule needs to be changed---to narrow the talent gap
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Post by coachorr on Dec 31, 2009 14:49:52 GMT -6
Off the topic but on, last night in the Arizona Nebraska game. The AZ oline fence blocked (cutting dlinemen to facilitate the quick passing game) and the commentator says. "Look at the Arizona Olinemen, they are all laying on the ground". As if to say that the Nebraska dline had all knocked the AS linemen on the ground with sheer physicality and that they were not intentionally "cutting" them.
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Post by phantom on Dec 31, 2009 14:51:58 GMT -6
Off the topic but on, last night in the Arizona Nebraska game. The AZ oline fence blocked (cutting dlinemen to facilitate the quick passing game) and the commentator says. "Look at the Arizona Olinemen, they are all laying on the ground". As if to say that the Nebraska dline had all knocked the AS linemen on the grund with sheer physicality and that they were not intentionally "cutting" them. Well, in that game it was an easy mistake to make.
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Post by thakatalyst on Dec 31, 2009 14:59:06 GMT -6
I WANT more teams to dabble in the option. Every time I see a team that runs SOME triple, speed, or load, I start drooling and so do my players.
On the other hand, I would love to face more true option teams. I love the challenge it poses to the defense. It's like facing the double wing: it's a love/hate thing.
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Post by coachks on Dec 31, 2009 14:59:24 GMT -6
Phantom:
I think the reason the cut is so crucial is becaue the pitch back can't alter his path. On an outside run (toss, buck, rocket, fly ect...) the ball carrier has the ball and can cut back, can bend around and do a number of things. The pitch back has to maintain his relationship.
The only way to ensure the safety can't get outside leverage is to cut him. The safety can always out-leverage the blocker an keep his leverage. Now, against a sweep this just opens up the cutback so it's not big deal. But a back waiting for a pitch can't cut back until he has the ball.
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