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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 21, 2009 13:16:16 GMT -6
TDMaker, We are in a similar #s situation. Do you run into any issues with your AD or parents having a lifting/meeting time on Saturday? I think around here they might have a kitten if I asked kids to come in on a non-school day. Heaven forbid! Honestly, just about every thing I did had someone complaining in one form or another just because it was different and I wasnt the same guy. Thats pretty much how things go (read the article by the U of Houston coach after he took over, sums it up well). We brought in two a days, we brought in mandatory study halls, lifting during practice, lifting and film on Saturdays, make up conditioning and loss of playing time for missed practices etc etc. Just because it was unfamiliar means its wrong to some people. Heres my suggestion and take it for whats it worth, YOU MUST DO IT YOUR WAY and remember that its not YOUR JOB TO CONFORM, its the other way around. If you want to do Sat film and lift, do sat film and lift. If a kid and his parent do not like it thats unfortunate because the parents arent supporting you. If the AD doesnt support it, thats unfortunate, youll need administrative support to do a good job. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. .
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Post by indian1 on Dec 21, 2009 16:03:10 GMT -6
do any of you small school guys platoon?
if so how?
I'm talking small...... around 130 boys in the HS and about 40 on the team 9-12
does anyone do it at a school that small?
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 21, 2009 18:14:29 GMT -6
indian--I don't think you will find anyone completely platooning with a squad that small. Now, you might find clubs that small that start 22 different guys, but I would be shocked if any team with those numbers would completely separate offense and defense. Heck, I don't think a school that size would have enough coaches for that many position coaches if they platooned.
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Post by indian1 on Dec 21, 2009 18:58:15 GMT -6
I just see so many benefits to it, I'm trying to figure out how to make it work. I think 6 coaches could do it. That being said, the quality of each coach becomes much more important.
I want to get those extra reps for all of our guys if I can. (platooning would double the reps per position)
And I think we could be a hell of a lot better on special teams if we could do this (play all our studs on ST).
Conventional wisdom says with that small a team you can't do it. That's why I'm asking for some examples. There has to be someone out there who does this effectively.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 21, 2009 19:20:30 GMT -6
I dont care how many reps you give someone, if they are five four and 122 lbs and run a 6.1 in the fourty, three thousand reps doesnt make them a football player. You have to put your best people on the field and in small school ball, in my limited experience, ONE good guy can change the game dramatically.
I dont see two platoons working when we have 22 kids on the roster, 5 of them are linemen. Whos going to play defensive line? Whos going to play fullback if our stud is at linebacker? whos going to play defensive end if we put the other stud at tight end or guard?
You got 3-4 players, they MUST play both sides along with the next 5 and the two or three you "hide" are still MUCH BETTER than the 6 or 7 guys that just wear the shirt.
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Post by superpower on Dec 21, 2009 19:52:18 GMT -6
indian, I agree with the other coaches here. I don't think you will be successful with platooning in a program with those numbers. We have similar numbers to you, and we have been able to limit the number of our OL and DL who start both ways, but our best kids have to be on the field if we want to win. Of our 35-45 players, we are lucky if half of them are juniors and seniors. You just can't expect to be very good if you have to depend on freshmen and sophomores at very many key positions.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 21, 2009 20:40:52 GMT -6
I dont care how many reps you give someone, if they are five four and 122 lbs and run a 6.1 in the fourty, three thousand reps doesnt make them a football player. You have to put your best people on the field and in small school ball, in my limited experience, ONE good guy can change the game dramatically. I dont see two platoons working when we have 22 kids on the roster, 5 of them are linemen. Whos going to play defensive line? Whos going to play fullback if our stud is at linebacker? whos going to play defensive end if we put the other stud at tight end or guard? You got 3-4 players, they MUST play both sides along with the next 5 and the two or three you "hide" are still MUCH BETTER than the 6 or 7 guys that just wear the shirt. Exactly. Indian--Keep in mind that Just because you teach kids offensive and defensive positions, that doesn't mean that you now only play 11 players who don't leave the field. Also, how exactly do you get "extra reps" two platooning with those small numbers. Wouldn't your offensive starters be needed as a scout squad vs your defensive starters, and thus 'lose" rep opportunities? I think with 6 coaches and only 40 players you would get MORE reps teaching an offensive and defensive position. You can have 2 ol coaches, 2 backs coaches, 2 receiver coaches...AND 2 dl coaches, 2 LB coaches and 2 db coaches...
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 21, 2009 22:03:43 GMT -6
Platooning at our level would be a kid only plays O and D line... not fullback or LB (meaning we have a good enough 2nd team kids there, which is rarely the case. What we're used to is having a backup QB play Guard). We are a bit smaller than you guys (about 80 students in the HS), but even when we were up around 140... we had 9 or 10 start both ways.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 22, 2009 4:49:03 GMT -6
We thought it was pretty special when we didnt have to play our qb at linebacker the last two games of the season.
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Post by blb on Dec 22, 2009 6:47:56 GMT -6
I forgot to mention that all of our players are in lifting classes during the day, so we don't have to spend practice time on lifting. I would not take a head coaching job at a school that does not have lifting classes.Ditto... and ditto. Do what you can to get lifting class incorporated... if not done already. If you can't during the day- a zero hour (before school... for credit), is a good way to get the ball rolling. There is a lifting class in curriculum but all electives have gotten squeezed by Michigan's increased graduation requirements (more math and science beginning junior year). Unfortunately all but one of our opponents supposedly have class(es). I am going to run after school weight room M-W-F January-June. BTW I took this job on "coaching-only" basis - am retired from teaching and district is facing possible layoffs anyway. Our JVs and freshmen play Thursday nights.
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Post by indian1 on Dec 22, 2009 7:05:51 GMT -6
Good points guys.
The way I'm wanting to do it I would still play 3 or 4 guys on both sides there are always a few guys who have to be on the field. But I would like to structure practice with the idea that we full platoon so everyone would practice one side of the ball except the 3 or 4 studs. They would switch one day to the next.
Right now we do one split day, 1 day offense and 1 day defense. So the extra reps would come to those guys who play one side of the ball not having to practice the other side. So essentially they double their reps.
Maybe the key is like TDM does. Hit offense and defense in the same day. I just really like platooning
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 22, 2009 8:10:40 GMT -6
Good points guys. The way I'm wanting to do it I would still play 3 or 4 guys on both sides there are always a few guys who have to be on the field. But I would like to structure practice with the idea that we full platoon so everyone would practice one side of the ball except the 3 or 4 studs. They would switch one day to the next. Coach, I don't see how you will have ANY depth that way with a team of 40 kids 9-12. Also, what kind of QUALITY will the reps be this way? You are going to end up with a player repping against a body this way. Lets say you try to go 14- 15 deep on each side of the ball (since you can't mathematically go 22 deep with only 40 players....). Offense 8OL (starting 5 plus TE, plus 2 swings) 4RB's/QB's (qb, 2 rb's plus a swing) 3 WR's (2 wr's plus swing) Defense DL & LB's 9 deep... (5 of one and 4 of the other) DB's 5 deep (4 starters plus 1 swing) Now, with 40 kids--subtract the 4 kids going both ways and you have 36. Divide that into two platoons and you have 18 kids grades 9-12 on offense and 18 kids grades 9-12 on defense. Plug in your projected 4 studs going both ways... and that means you have to fill 10-11 positions from those 18 kids.... The extra reps you are anticipating will be used up cross training, and you then put yourself in the position of either putting a kid who is not physically ready to perform in a varsity game... or putting a kid in who has had precious little practice time. Also I think one of the biggest hurdles to overcome at the small squad level is: how do you get player improvement when the player's competition isn't really competition? How are you going to generate a true competitive nature with an offensive unit of 18 kids grades 9-12 plus a few studs who will practice with them half of the time? I think this is the key, along with doubling up your coaches, making sure the coaches are INVESTED in this doubling up, and realizing that how you use your practice time (tons of individual and group, very little team) is the key.
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Post by indian1 on Dec 22, 2009 9:07:43 GMT -6
coachd
You are probably right.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 22, 2009 9:17:26 GMT -6
I am going to run after school weight room M-W-F January-June. BTW I took this job on "coaching-only" basis - am retired from teaching and district is facing possible layoffs anyway.
Coach,
I'm sure you thought this through, but I'm a big advocate of mornings rather than after school... if possible.
Here, about 75% of our guys play a winter sport... so we'd miss our on all of them by going after school.
The zero hour is a good deal if you can swing it- they come in before school starts, lift/condition, etc. AND get credit for it.
I don't know if your admin. would go for it, and don't know if it would work best in your situation, but it is what got us off the ground with weights class.
We now have 3 sections of weights so we can get every player in. One of those sections is still zero hour (for some, it is the only way we can fit them in).
Just a thought...
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Post by lukethadrifter on Dec 22, 2009 9:58:16 GMT -6
We would love to have everyone just play on one side of the ball. We were able to do that almost exclusively when I was an assistant at the 3A, 4A, and 5A levels. Even at those levels, there were a few "difference makers" who had to be on the field on both sides of the ball. This past season we had 7 kids who usually played a lot on both sides of the ball. We had around 40 kids out total.
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Post by superpower on Dec 22, 2009 9:59:21 GMT -6
We are the same at the distinguished Senator from Nebraska in the fact that we have a zero hour for our freshmen and a few others who can't fit the lifting class into their schedule. We have 3 lifting classes in the regular class schedule plus zero hour. I "require" all football players to be enrolled in a lifting class at the beginning of the school year.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 22, 2009 19:52:59 GMT -6
No offense fellas, but I feel like this thread should be renamed "Two-platoon or not two-platoon...that is the question?" or "Who has zero hour?". I keep checking back to see some new posts on "Small school practice organization"...you know...practice plans, weekly practice templates, innovative drill work with small numbers, etc. Seem to be going off on a tangent and I'd like to get back to what this thread is supposed to be about. Just an observation. I'd really like to see what everyone thinks about the actual thread topic here. Thanks.
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Post by coachcastleman on Dec 22, 2009 22:27:38 GMT -6
Our schedule is pretty much the same at senator's. We only have about 185 in our school total. We had 29 players on the team this year (9-12). Of the 22 offensive/defensive positions, we started 15 guys. Struggle to field a JV team, but feel it is important to develop the younger guys. We do not have lifting during the day, so we come in at 6:30 am to get our lifting in. Our practice is 2 hours long. I try to make sure the players home at a decent time to get their school work done. Our biggest issue is fielding a quality scout team during practice. However, we really work with the younger guys to make it a point of pride to be a good scout team player. Also, anyone who starts on just one side of the ball, plays scout on the other side. On occasion a coach or two will fill a spot. I had to stop playing scout QB, because basically I am getting old and hurt myself pretty bad At one point in the past couple years we had over 40 guys, which is a lot for us. But we weren't getting the results we wanted so we started pushing them more. A good number of them decided not to play because they didn't want to work as hard as necessary to be successful. We were worried that when we started the season we only had 29 guys and we may lose a couple along the way. Well, I soon realized that if you have a group of guys who will do whatever it takes to be successful, it really doesn't matter if there is only 29. We made it to the state championship as one of the smallest schools in the smallest class in our state. Too bad we didn't come out successful in the championship game, but it was a season that we all won't soon forget.
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Post by coachks on Dec 22, 2009 22:51:11 GMT -6
Here is what we are contemplating for the upcoming season. Everday (Mon-Tue-Wed that is) Tackling circuit Blocking circuit. Two special teams Circuits should be about 20 minutes (10 mnutes per circuit) between 3-4 drills per circuit. Specials are about 15.
Monday: Scouting report, circuit, walkthrough (gameplan put in on the field) and limited Team O and D (shells). About 1:15 on the field, a tick over 2 hours with the meeting.
Tuesday: Defensive day (+Team O). On the field for 2 hours. (50 for stretch, circuit, specials, 30 for indy, 30 for team, 10 condition). Team will be split 20 minutes to Def, 10 to Off.
Wednesday: Offensive Day (+Team D). On the field for 2 hours.
Thursday: Walk through (All specials, O and D review) a tick under 1:30.
Early in the season we may go just a tick over 2 hours (longer conditioning). As coaches we often use 5-10 minutes before practice to go over something more in-depth (when the kids are playing catch...chatting...punting ect before practice). We also do mini group-specific film sessions (10-15 minutes to highlight something specific) if it's called for.
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Post by blb on Dec 23, 2009 7:54:44 GMT -6
I am going to run after school weight room M-W-F January-June. BTW I took this job on "coaching-only" basis - am retired from teaching and district is facing possible layoffs anyway.Coach, I'm sure you thought this through, but I'm a big advocate of mornings rather than after school... if possible. Here, about 75% of our guys play a winter sport... so we'd miss our on all of them by going after school. The zero hour is a good deal if you can swing it- they come in before school starts, lift/condition, etc. AND get credit for it. I don't know if your admin. would go for it, and don't know if it would work best in your situation, but it is what got us off the ground with weights class. We now have 3 sections of weights so we can get every player in. One of those sections is still zero hour (for some, it is the only way we can fit them in). Just a thought... Bluto, I think you're right and I had thought about it. HOWEVER - previous coach (who is a teacher in building) tried Zero Hour (not accredited class, just voluntary) and was met with resistance from parents and did not receive backing, and so it was discontinued. Also probably would not be practical for me to drive out and back 20 minutes one way at 6:30 am and again at 2 pm. We will do what we can do with who can be there after school, really get after it in the summer, and I will talk to powers-that-be about trying to get class back in schedule for at least one hour a semester. Sometimes, all you can do is all you can do.
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Post by blb on Dec 23, 2009 8:43:09 GMT -6
No offense fellas, but I feel like this thread should be renamed "Two-platoon or not two-platoon...that is the question?" or "Who has zero hour?". I keep checking back to see some new posts on "Small school practice organization"...you know...practice plans, weekly practice templates, innovative drill work with small numbers, etc. Seem to be going off on a tangent and I'd like to get back to what this thread is supposed to be about. Just an observation. I'd really like to see what everyone thinks about the actual thread topic here. Thanks. Okay, coach, good point. For discussion, here's my basic practice outline (Varsity watches previous game film Sunday evenings): Monday15 mins Specialties 15 mins Warmup 20 mins Individual Defense 15 mins Kicking Game 20 mins Group Defense 35 mins Team Defense 20 mins Team Offense 10 mins Perfect Play drill Tuesday15 mins Specialties 15 mins Warmup 20 mins Individual Offense 15 mins Offensive Kicking Game 20 mins Group Offense 35 mins Team Offense (including Goalline) 25 mins Team Defense (including Goalline) 5 minutes Conditioning Wednesday15 mins Specialties 15 mins Warmup 20 mins Individual Defense 15 mins Defensive Kicking Game 20 minutes Group Defense 35 minutes Team Defense 25 mins Team Offense (including 3rd and 7) 5 minutes Finish Thursday15 mins Pre-Game Specialties 20 mins Pre-Game 35 mins Team Defense (including Kicking Game) 35 mins Team Offense (including Kicking Game) Comments, especially from small school perspective?
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 23, 2009 9:29:05 GMT -6
Okay, coach, good point. For discussion, here's my basic practice outline (Varsity watches previous game film Sunday evenings): Monday15 mins Specialties 15 mins Warmup 20 mins Individual Defense 15 mins Kicking Game 20 mins Group Defense 35 mins Team Defense 20 mins Team Offense 10 mins Perfect Play drill Tuesday15 mins Specialties 15 mins Warmup 20 mins Individual Offense 15 mins Offensive Kicking Game 20 mins Group Offense 35 mins Team Offense (including Goalline) 25 mins Team Defense (including Goalline) 5 minutes Conditioning Wednesday15 mins Specialties 15 mins Warmup 20 mins Individual Defense 15 mins Defensive Kicking Game 20 minutes Group Defense 35 minutes Team Defense 25 mins Team Offense (including 3rd and 7) 5 minutes Finish Thursday15 mins Pre-Game Specialties 20 mins Pre-Game 35 mins Team Defense (including Kicking Game) 35 mins Team Offense (including Kicking Game) Comments, especially from small school perspective? 125 min of team offense and only 20 minutes of Individual, fundamental training on offensive skills? What are your coaching numbers? What do you consider "Group" as in group Offensive or group Defense?
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Post by blb on Dec 23, 2009 10:07:32 GMT -6
Our Specialties periods are largely Offensive - pass routes vs. air or 7-on-7s, catch drills, QB Pitch 'n Pass; offensive line combo blocks or techniques, assignments, and pass pro. So there is more offensive technique work going on than 20 minutes you cited.
Also, not to nit-pick, but about 15 minutes of our Thursday Team time is Kicking Game review. So our weekly Team offensive time is about 110 minutes, dividly almost equally between 1s and 2s.
The fact is coach we spend most of our three-day camp in July on offense since we can't hit and it gets equal attention during two-a-days. When we get in-season we are going to emphasize defense because we believe that is most important. Broken down we spend a half-hour more a week on defense.
Group periods are Review or Install, 7-on-7, Inside (defense) Drill.
As I posted earlier, at my new school we will have three paid Varsity coaches, two each at JV and frosh levels. Hope to have a volunteer with JVs and frosh too if not Varsity.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 23, 2009 11:07:30 GMT -6
Interesting how all of us have different challenges
We have 3 paid positions including my own for grades 9-12
we do not hire our ms staff- I think they have one paid position down there.
football starts here in grade 4.
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Post by davishfc on Nov 7, 2010 21:47:52 GMT -6
Any new developments at small schools this season regarding practice organization?
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Post by dc207 on Nov 8, 2010 19:05:22 GMT -6
TDMaker, We are in a similar #s situation. Do you run into any issues with your AD or parents having a lifting/meeting time on Saturday? I think around here they might have a kitten if I asked kids to come in on a non-school day. Heaven forbid! Honestly, just about every thing I did had someone complaining in one form or another just because it was different and I wasnt the same guy. Thats pretty much how things go (read the article by the U of Houston coach after he took over, sums it up well). We brought in two a days, we brought in mandatory study halls, lifting during practice, lifting and film on Saturdays, make up conditioning and loss of playing time for missed practices etc etc. Just because it was unfamiliar means its wrong to some people. Heres my suggestion and take it for whats it worth, YOU MUST DO IT YOUR WAY and remember that its not YOUR JOB TO CONFORM, its the other way around. If you want to do Sat film and lift, do sat film and lift. If a kid and his parent do not like it thats unfortunate because the parents arent supporting you. If the AD doesnt support it, thats unfortunate, youll need administrative support to do a good job. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. . I agree with ya here. Sounds like it is tough to start or restart a program. We had to do it in 2004, and honestly the kids have been great for the most part. Our JV and juniors lift after three practices a week, and almost all of our kids come to film on Saturday morning to watch the previous night's game. The kids would stay all day if we let them. We give 'em film of our upcoming opponent and they all watch it, believe me. We have been very satisfied with our kids coming in on Saturday's, lifting during the season and doing study hall sessions pretty much daily.
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Post by coachbw on Nov 8, 2010 22:36:53 GMT -6
I have been at a couple of successful small schools and we have used pretty similar practice schedules. Monday - Install Gameplan, Indy O, Team O, Indy D, Team D, Tuesday - Indy O, Offensive Inside Hull, Offensive Skelly, Team Offense, Shortened Indy D (Depending on the week, groups may combine this period as an inside or skelly period). Team D, Lift in the AM Wednesday - Shortened Indy O (groups may combine for inside hull or skelly). Indy D, Defensive Inside Hull, Defensive Skelly, Team Defense Thursday - Very Short Walk Through, Lift in the AM Friday - Game Saturday - AM Lift & Quick Film (45 Minutes)
As far as platooning, we always saw the benefits of it but never had the numbers too. We did get to the point when our numbers where the highest though that we platooned our lines. We had a different offensive and defensive line coaches and the players basically gained an extra individual and group period every day. They were then the line for the scout team during team time. I believe when we did this we were sitting right at about 50 players.
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Post by blb on Nov 9, 2010 7:00:25 GMT -6
What does "Hull" mean?
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Post by blb on Nov 9, 2010 7:33:09 GMT -6
Any new developments at small schools this season regarding practice organization? Coach Davis, we cut our M-W in-season practices from 2:30-2:15 by taking time away from Group and Team periods. Most we had dressed for any one practice prior to Playoffs was 28, usually more like 25. So kids were going every rep either on Offense or Defense, or Scout Team. Unless we have some kids come out of the wood work, our numbers may be even lower next season. I will consider cutting even more Team time to avoid injuries and fatigue, which means 2s will only get reps during Individual and on Scout squads.
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Post by davishfc on Nov 9, 2010 11:58:29 GMT -6
Any new developments at small schools this season regarding practice organization? Coach Davis, we cut our M-W in-season practices from 2:30-2:15 by taking time away from Group and Team periods. Most we had dressed for any one practice prior to Playoffs was 28, usually more like 25. So kids were going every rep either on Offense or Defense, or Scout Team. Unless we have some kids come out of the wood work, our numbers may be even lower next season. I will consider cutting even more Team time to avoid injuries and fatigue, which means 2s will only get reps during Individual and on Scout squads. Thanks for responding Coach. I wanted to hear from you because it sounds like you're in a very similar situation numbers-wise and obviously practice organization is most heavily influenced by the number of coaches and players. You're better than me though Coach. I can't see myself cutting team time from practice. Did you feel that cutting the team period was a worthwhile sacrifice from practice in terms of exceution? Let me try that again. Did you feel like the overall execution diminished when you cut the time that you had as a coach to evaluate that?
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