Offense and Defense relation

I'll say this: A fast team on O = A fast team on D. Generally speaking, as HS coaches we get to choose any two of the following: fast, strong, talented. If you're lucky (or good), you can get all 3 in SOME of your players. A spread team which is generally focus on speed is going to be lacking in the 'brute strength' category (again a generalization). So, they're going to have a fast, talented defense that gets worn out by brute strength.

My uncle's team is a prime example of this. They're a spread team with sick amounts of speed and generally pretty talented all over the board, but they just don't have the Cornhusker-esque "maul your face off" type ability. They ran for like, 3k yards this season using the typical zone read/GT/dart schemes. Defensively, they play fast, swarming defense, but they ALWAYS have problems against teams that want to line up and run the ball straight at them. Part of it is the type of lineman they get: small to middling Hispanic/Asian kids with 1-2 Samoans a year who stand out like a sore thumb. But, I know his former teams that scored less points but won nearly the same amount were more focused on running the ball. Key word is nearly.

I think becoming a spread team was a smart choice for them, they've won more, had more upsets, scored more points, gotten more kids. But, they'll always have problems with run-heavy, 'nasty' teams.

I know this is somewhat simplistic, but if you don't have the kids to run a power oriented offense, then you probably don't have the kids to stop a power oriented offense.

This means that you need to utilize you players in a way which maximizes their strengths and minimized their weaknesses - play a speed based defense with aggressive blitzing and stunting. Make that power offense have to hit a bunch of moving targets while you consolidate at the point of attack.

I believe if you have a speedy aggressive offense (spread type), you should also have a speedy aggressive defense (fewer players with a hand on the ground).

we run double wing and smash and grind....our defense at the moment, softer than melted butter

I think it has to do with how you practice and prepare. There is a big private school in the area that has always been a run it down your throat type team, a couple years ago they get a head coach who was a college OC and he puts in the no huddle spread. They had success because they had great athletes but they didn't win the tough games and clearly lacked a toughgness to them. Of course everyone said it's the spread that makes them soft. Well in talking with some players and coaches from the team come to find out they hardly ever went full pads and hit during practice, mostly always in shells, and tried to run like 150 plays a practice without much hitting on defense either. So was it the spread that made them soft or they way they practiced?

I think it depends on coach's personality or philosophy also. Good friend of mine and I run same offense but his are thought of as power, physical-type teams, while mine are regarded more as "big play."

If you two-platoon, you could have a bunch of tough hitters on defense and still run an offense based on speed, skill, finesse.

When LaVell Edwards was head coach at BYU (1970s-90s) his teams threw the he11 out of the ball (think McMahon, Young, Detmer et al) but his defenses were dam tough, too.

We are going to test this particular question. Most of my career, I have coached hard nosed football.....down hill defense and smash mouth Wing-T offense.

Recently I took over a program that has a fine tradition of being successful. Most of there recent success has invloved a spread offense mentality. I didn't want to rock the whole foundation of their tradition so I changed the defense and allowed the remaining OC to continue the spread mentality.

As two seasons have passed, I have witnessed a group of kids become soft and passive, not bad, just passive. Our defense goes against the pass set mentality on a regular basis.....
bottom line -----we have gotten soft because of the pass set mentality (JMO)

In this case, my opinion is the only thing that counts....I am the HC and this is MY program. Time to make ME happy!!!

We have already started to change the "identy" of our team. We will be back in the Wing-T next season, knocking people off the ball with doubles, downs, and traps, etc. ---I fully expect our defensive toughness to raise a bunch of notches as well.

I firmly believe there is a strong and positive correlation between offensive and defensive mentality and toughness.

If this thread still exists after next season, I will report my findings.

Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas !!!

hmmmmmmm.............


I think the difference here is coaching.


We are a small school that use to be ground and pound, and spent A LOT of time in TEAM period. The right of passage for freshmen and sophomores was the scout team.


In essence, they got a TON of reps against a power offense, and that tranlated into us being pretty good against that look.



When we went spread (which we did during a down year talent-wise), we just couldn't stop the run. Part of that was talent, and part of that was this little tidbit (which I think is the root of the discussion here):


We could no longer rely on kids growing up on scout team. We as coaches had to get better in our Indy periods.


Really, the way to beat a power team is through run fits and fighting pressure (up front), and in the absence of kids going to the school of hard knocks to learn that, we had to get better at simulating it.


It comes easier when you have a power offense, but doing something like Run and Shoot does not CAUSE your defense to be soft...........the coaches' inability to adapt does............


BTW, our defenses are now just as sound as they were before.

I agree wholeheartedly with Brophy! It's not the scheme you run. It's how you coach the scheme you run. I believe offenses and defenses both take on the characteristics of their coaches.

I think that makes sense if the only look you get is in TEAM, but then I'm still puzzled about;

1. Basic fundamental looks. A down block is a down block - a shade is a shade. If your offense/defense is (or is just presented as) so unique and unrelated to anything else, then this basic game may have been made overly complicated/specialized.

2. What is going on in INDY and GROUP time? IMO this is what is going to determine the difference between executing and not executing against certain looks. Are they able to master the first 2 steps of a play/look? This can be repped by the very people that will be going up against this look (a OG can play a 3 tech against other OGs.....a OLB can play as a TE against other LBs).

3. If you are getting bad looks in TEAM time, is it because they are going up against the scrubs, and these guys couldn't give a good look no matter what the scheme was (they are scrubs for a reason)?


I am just unable to accept that 'spread' teams create 'soft' defenders or 'rushing offenses' inherently create 'tough' defenders. They are what we coach. If the players are undisciplined or lack fundamental skills (to win), then it is because that is what we coach.

I stand firm in agreement with the comment made by realdawg, "OL sets the mentality of the entire team". Tell a teenage lineman to be tough, beat their heads together in drills, and push technical excellence to the limit then go out under the lights and pass set.....hmmmmm....teenage question...why do we beat each other up and don't get to do that to the opponent.
Having coached both offensive styles now, I can tell you without hesitation, O-linemen in power style offenses walk taller and demonstrate more pride in their efforts than guys forced to pass set most of the game....this is just my observation, and before you spread guys get defensive remember this......I have always believed in coaching what you really believe in. I gave the air raid a try.....not my style. 3.3 yards and a puff of little black pellets, I'll stick with running the ball primarily.

I refuse, and refuse to allow my team, to accept the whole argument that "spread = soft". We take 98% of our snaps in the gun, and strive for a 50/50 run/pass mix. We WILL be physical when we run the football, and we WILL be tenacious and nasty protecting our QB when we throw. Realdawg is right on - the OL sets the tone for the team. Our guys up front are not going to be soft, and it carries over - our backs WILL run hard, our receivers WILL get after their a$$ and our defense WILL run to the football and put a lick on you. Mindset is established in how you coach and practice, and as Brophy stated it needs to be established in Indy and Group as well as in Team.

time and effort in the weight room make a hug difference as well

You gentlemen are entirely too anecdotal...

""I knew this one team... and they never let a team score on them ever... and they were spread! So there!""

The point being made is this... practice is ancillary... that is while you are running your offensive sets, there exist ancillary practice in which the rest of your football team is practicing a scheme or style. If your offense is spread, and you have an offensive day, then your ancillary practice, has your kids defending the spread... dropping in coverage, playing in space... watching passes be dropped, and kids beating you to the sideline.

One and a half days per week, 20 weeks per year... that's a lot of pass protection defense. It is quantifiable... you are what you practice. A power team with that same ancillary practice, is learning to stop the run, play between the tackles... getting tough.

Like it or not... smashmouth is named such, because thats what it is!

What did you say? I couldn't hear you, had my fingers in my ears... but if you said, Spread teams run, in addition to pass, and that's more than enough to equate them to smashmouth... I'd say you're right!

Because, zone read, speed opt, QB Dart as well as power and trap, vs the 6 man front is of course equivalent... If you see 7 in the box are you running?

Who's making the tackles against your spred running game? CB's? FS's? What are your LB's doing? How about those DE's? Rushing the passer? Blitzing...

Look... I don't mean to hurt any of the feelings of you spread guys. But unless you are just blessed with a group of rock stars... for the most part, spread teams are soft...

And before you point to the spread teams that won state, with the outstanding defense that have never been scored upon, I'm going to plug my ears and remind you...

That the majority of schools across the nation, are running spread... and they are piss poor with it... everyone likes to point to the studs when arguing, but the truth of the matter, is that there are 10 times as many poor spread teams than successful.

I'm not sayin'... I'm just sayin!