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Post by n41rudy on Dec 16, 2009 9:23:12 GMT -6
I heard a talk a few years back by Lyle Lansdale where he talked about meeting with the refs and having a 3x5 card with all the different issues that he wanted to address prior to a game. I am putting mine together for next year and I was curious to hear what you guys would put on that list.
What is the one thing that you always want to make sure the refs know about you / your team / the game before it starts besides your trick plays?
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Post by cc on Dec 16, 2009 9:29:47 GMT -6
We want to win, so don't let them beat us!!!
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Post by n41rudy on Dec 16, 2009 9:39:45 GMT -6
yeah... that is pretty important
but seriously....
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Post by John Knight on Dec 16, 2009 9:46:20 GMT -6
It is usually a waste of time and if you tell them how the other team does things that are not legal, they will call it on your team.
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Post by blb on Dec 16, 2009 9:57:38 GMT -6
It is usually a waste of time and if you tell them how the other team does things that are not legal, they will call it on your team. Amen. |
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Post by tribepride on Dec 16, 2009 10:12:53 GMT -6
We are a flexbone team so we remind them that they need to know who has the ball before they whistle the play dead. We also tell them about the unbalanced formations we run where we sometimes have eligible receivers covered. We don't go into what the other team is doing.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 16, 2009 10:14:11 GMT -6
It is usually a waste of time and if you tell them how the other team does things that are not legal, they will call it on your team. Amen. This is the quote of the year. I think alot of it depends on what kind of offense you run. |
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Post by falconattack on Dec 16, 2009 10:22:04 GMT -6
I don't use a note card to remind me, but everytime I meet with the officials before the game I try to give a brief description of my expectations of our players:
No profanity
Good sportsmanship
Players not officials
Competitive Warriors but not mean spirited
I ask the officials to watch for anything that might damage the reputation (ie not living up to program expectations) of our program and let me know as soon as they witness that type of action.
I also tell the officials that I am the ONLY person on our sideline that is allowed to talk to any official and to let me know if it isn't happening. If the officials every say anything about the issues I have mentioned, I take immediate action to correct it.
You see, I have developed a philosophy over time. Officials, believe it or not, are not out to get anyone. They are there to do a job, some do it better than others, but 99% of them are trying hard to be good. Sure they miss calls, so do I. However, the more time I spend "working" the official, the less time I have to spend helping my players be successful. On the payback side, keep this in mind......not many people who hate their job look forward to going to work. My attempt is to provide a happy work place for officials, then the next time they work our game they will be excited, rather than angry.
It works for me and it has made life on the sideline a lot better for everyone.
Show class, receive class!!!
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Post by n41rudy on Dec 16, 2009 10:28:56 GMT -6
I don't use a note card to remind me, but everytime I meet with the officials before the game I try to give a brief description of my expectations of our players: No profanity Good sportsmanship Players not officials Competitive Warriors but not mean spirited I ask the officials to watch for anything that might damage the reputation (ie not living up to program expectations) of our program and let me know as soon as they witness that type of action. I also tell the officials that I am the ONLY person on our sideline that is allowed to talk to any official and to let me know if it isn't happening. If the officials every say anything about the issues I have mentioned, I take immediate action to correct it. You see, I have developed a philosophy over time. Officials, believe it or not, are not out to get anyone. They are there to do a job, some do it better than others, but 99% of them are trying hard to be good. Sure they miss calls, so do I. However, the more time I spend "working" the official, the less time I have to spend helping my players be successful. On the payback side, keep this in mind......not many people who hate their job look forward to going to work. My attempt is to provide a happy work place for officials, then the next time they work our game they will be excited, rather than angry. It works for me and it has made life on the sideline a lot better for everyone. Show class, receive class!!! Great point. I think that is a great approach. It is a change for many coaches but I think it is something I am planning on doing next year. I guess what I am more specifically looking for are things that you make sure you address before hand so it doesn't bite you later when the refs don't realize they have to communicate in certain situations instead of just toss a flag. ie.... 1st game this year our unbalanced PAT was flagged for being perfect. ref just counted his side and didn't communicate with the opposite ref. lined up the same way to try again and didn't have it called. We talked to the refs about it every game after that. |
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Post by playsmart on Dec 16, 2009 10:29:16 GMT -6
Maybe putting the numbers and the names of the players you want the ref to talk to during the game about something (like weather to take a penalty or not or to tell the team to cool thier jets). Usally it will be the captian you write down. However, you don't want the ref to talk to Jimmy who is the third string WR who doesn't know what 1+1 is.
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Post by falconattack on Dec 16, 2009 11:10:46 GMT -6
Great point. Describing unique formations, plays, etc is alway beneficial.
We utilize "Rugby Style" punting. I always mention that at our pre game meeting. I also talk about any "special" (trick) play we may us.
If I see something on film that the opponent is doing that could be illegal, I normally ask a question about that particular situation.
Example: In our State, cutting outside the box is illegal. Maybe I notice the opponents FB cutting LB's on Iso. I will ask something like this before hand..... "Now listen, I understand the rules have changed a little. It is okay to cut LB's as long as they come into the box, Right?"
Point made without "tattle taling" on the opponent.
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Post by n41rudy on Dec 16, 2009 12:08:20 GMT -6
Great point. Describing unique formations, plays, etc is alway beneficial. We utilize "Rugby Style" punting. I always mention that at our pre game meeting. I also talk about any "special" (trick) play we may us. If I see something on film that the opponent is doing that could be illegal, I normally ask a question about that particular situation. Example: In our State, cutting outside the box is illegal. Maybe I notice the opponents FB cutting LB's on Iso. I will ask something like this before hand..... "Now listen, I understand the rules have changed a little. It is okay to cut LB's as long as they come into the box, Right?" Point made without "tattle taling" on the opponent. I like the phrasing suggestion to avoid drawing undue attention on your own team / "tattle tailing". Just another reminder that HC's are more salesman than coach at times. |
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Post by John Knight on Dec 16, 2009 12:31:32 GMT -6
Don't be surprised when they "see" your FB cut a LB then!
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Post by falconattack on Dec 17, 2009 11:06:30 GMT -6
I am rarely suprised by anything that happens on the field. Suprise normally is caused by lack of preparation. If my FB gets called for an illegal block, that is my fault, I didn't do a very good job of coaching the FB. I don't blame anyone but myself.
Many people talk about expecting accountability from their players, parents, etc. At what point do we demonstrate accountability via our actions (including the sideline) Are we teaching "accountability acceptance" by example, or are we teaching "differed blame" by example ? It IS one or the other.
Just my 2 cents. Don't intend to offend anyone!!!
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Dec 17, 2009 11:06:33 GMT -6
This year running the DW, I had to tell the refs that we run wedge and that we don't push on the ball carrier, we push on the linemen.
Then I told them that we cut backside with the TE.
Several times they told me that we couldn't do that, but I had the guys line up and the refs would measure to see if we were within 4 yards of the ball.
After a few games I got an idea that could speed this along.
I placed the football and the Center on the line perpendicular to the goal line. Had the Center straddle the line and then had the Olinemen line up. This let the officials see that we were less than 4 yards from the ball and we were OK.
OJW
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hwkfn1
Junior Member
Posts: 258
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Post by hwkfn1 on Dec 17, 2009 11:52:25 GMT -6
Just out of curiosity, do the officials have to meet with both head coaches before the game? We had a situation this past season where the officials met with the home team coach but refused to meet with me. I finally asked them if they wanted captains' numbers and the response was "we will get them on our own." Needless to say we got very few calls in our favor. There were some gross misinterpretation of rules. They started cussing at my players at the end of the game, so I asked them why they didn't meet with me and they started cussing at me. Basically, the whole crew was a bunch of pricks.
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 17, 2009 14:48:30 GMT -6
My one and only strategy is to be positive, smile, joke a bit, and finish the meeting off with "alright, lets have some fun".
I have this feeling that refs come into a game always wondering if they will need to deal with an A-hole coach or not. I want to eliminate that right away.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 17, 2009 15:38:01 GMT -6
My one and only strategy is to be positive, smile, joke a bit, and finish the meeting off with "alright, lets have some fun".
I have this feeling that refs come into a game always wondering if they will need to deal with an A-hole coach or not. I want to eliminate that right away.
That's kind of my approach. I've been around long enough that I know most crews anyway.
RE: what to tell... years ago we used to run a shift punt (draw off play), and I spoke to the officials about it. In one game we ran the play, and were called for illegal shift- because we intentionally did it to draw them off.
I was pretty angry (OK... livid). I yelled out "John (the ref, who I thought was one of the best around)... I TOLD you about that play beforehand."
He said he'd talk tome about it later... and though I doubted he would... he did. After the game (which we won... didn't play very well though) he told me (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Maybe if you didn't tell me about the play, I would just react to it and might have called offsides. Since you told me, I knew you would try to draw them off the first chance you got and that's what was in my mind.
So the next week, we played a team (who apparently didn't scout us very well). This time, I DID NOT say anything before the game, we ran the shift, drew them off- and they were penalized.
As an additional note, John (ref from the first game) was evaluating the crew that week. I received an email from him later that day that read: "This time the shift looked clean".
Since then, I have never divulged some of those little quirky plays we have. I let them react... and for the most part (not always), I think that has probably worked out better than it would had I told them about all our "tricks" (which aren't many).
Any time I've mentioned something specific (like "they tackle guards", "they cut fullbacks with LBs", etc.) it has seemed to backfire... so I have made it a philosophy to keep my mouth shut as much as possible.
Just my thoughts...
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Post by John Knight on Dec 17, 2009 19:29:58 GMT -6
The Coaches Code of Ethics
The function of a coach is to educate students through participation in interscholastic competition. An interscholastic program should be designed to enhance academic achievement and should never interfere with opportunities for academic success. Each student-athlete should be treated as though he or she were the coaches' own, and his or her welfare should be uppermost at all times. Accordingly, the following guidelines for coaches have been adopted by the NFCA Board of Directors.
The coach shall be aware that he or she has a tremendous influence, for either good or ill, on the education of the student-athlete and, thus, shall never place the value of winning above the value of instilling the highest ideals of character.
The coach shall uphold the honor and dignity of the profession. In all personal contact with student-athletes, officials, athletic directors, school administrators, the state high school athletic association, the media, and the public, the coach shall strive to set an example of the highest ethical and moral conduct.
The coach shall take an active role in the prevention of drug, alcohol and tobacco abuse.
The coach shall avoid the use of alcohol and tobacco products when in contact with players.
The coach shall promote the entire interscholastic program of the school and direct his or her program in harmony with the total school program.
The coach shall master the contest rules and shall teach them to his or her team members. The coach shall not seek an advantage by circumvention of the spirit or letter of the rules.
The coach shall exert his or her influence to enhance sportsmanship by spectators, both directly and by working closely with cheerleaders, pep club sponsors, booster clubs, and administrators.
The coach shall respect and support contest officials. The coach shall not indulge in conduct which would incite players or spectators against the officials. Public criticism of officials or players is unethical.
Before and after contests, coaches for the competing teams should meet and exchange cordial greetings to set the correct tone for the event.
A coach shall not exert pressure on faculty members to give student-athletes special consideration. A coach shall not scout opponents by any means other than those adopted by the league and/or state high school athletic association.
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Post by John Knight on Dec 17, 2009 19:32:34 GMT -6
7.1.7 SITUATION B: On fourth and four from A's 35-yard line, K comes to the
line in a scrimmage formation. After calling a few signals, A1 says "shift." All 11
players then make a movement. Some players move to a new position for a
scrimmage-kick formation, while four interior linemen remain in place and move
from a hands-on-thighs position to an upright position and finally to a three-point
stance. RULING: This could be ruled a false start if the covering official(s) determine
that it was designed to cause B to encroach. In judging the offensive team's
intent, the officials should consider whether players move to a new position, the
speed and abruptness of movement, down and distance and if any player pretends
to have the ball or otherwise simulate action at the snap with the start of a
play. (7-1-7; 7-2-6)
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 17, 2009 20:09:33 GMT -6
Thanks for the ethics lesson John  ... This could be ruled a false start if the covering official(s) determine
that it was designed to cause B to encroach.Sometime... (not in the thread) explain where this demonstrates lack of "mastery". Also, the "spirit of the rules" is not breeched by the scenario I described... it COULD be, not IS a false start, and if the rule remains vague (in this or any other situation), it could be construed as good tactical planning by finding out the extent of what is perceived legal (ex. in basketball if the officials are letting guys bang around, failure to adapt to that situation will get you beat; these are judgment calls and there is nothing unethical about determining the boundaries of an officials judgment) Sorry if I offended... I was making a point RE: speaking with officials. I'll let it be up to them to determine if a shift (or anything) we do is legal/not legal. Generally it has been my experience that is best to let the officials react to the calls, rather than give them a suggestion as to what we are trying to accomplish, thus influencing their decisions. |
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Post by John Knight on Dec 17, 2009 20:15:49 GMT -6
coach shall not seek an advantage by circumvention of the spirit or letter of the rules.
Running a play to get the other team to jump is illegal and is trying to seek an advantage by circumventing the rules.
Sorry but the snap down punt or any trick play that is deemed illegal is unethical.
Just the way I see it.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 17, 2009 20:23:49 GMT -6
Just the way I see it.
Fair enough. It's how some officials see it too (which is one of the reasons we quit running that play years ago).
Still, with the shifting/motioning, some (coaches/officials) see it as trying to obtain a (legal) tactical advantage, which is not unethical, just good scheming.
It would be nice if the rules were more black and white, but when it comes to the gray areas, I still maintain, it's best to say nothing pre-game, and let the uninfluenced perception of the officials determine what will and will not work.
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Post by John Knight on Dec 17, 2009 20:33:18 GMT -6
I agree with that 100% The problem is not all officials have the background or understanding to call with consistency. Lack of consistency is the number one complaint I have with officials. Just call it the same for everyone in every game. That will never happen.
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 18, 2009 7:41:15 GMT -6
I agree with that 100% The problem is not all officials have the background or understanding to call with consistency. Lack of consistency is the number one complaint I have with officials. Just call it the same for everyone in every game. That will never happen. Impossible when so many rules are called subjectively. Was he in or out? Pretty easy Was he holding" Not too tough Was it pass interference? Getting tougher Did the ball come out on the bottom of the pile before the runner's knee was down? Sometimes...impossible. |
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Post by John Knight on Dec 18, 2009 7:46:18 GMT -6
I am not talking about subjective (judgment) calls. I am talking about specifics like wrong ball or where's the tee being added to unfair acts and also cut and dried things like adornment issues. Some officials call them some don't . I think NFHS needs to do away with forced out rule on a catch too. That is just too subjective.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 18, 2009 10:13:39 GMT -6
I am not talking about subjective (judgment) calls. I am talking about specifics
Agreed. Any rule that leaves it open as to"intent" is problematic. We motion and shift a lot. In our playoff loss, we were called twice for illegal shift (both times the D jumped off). We did it all year- never had a penalty called on us (in fact, we haven't had a penalty for that since 2007). The first one was on 4th & 4. The second was on 2nd and goal from the 1.
I'll be honest- our intent was to draw them off on 4th down, and quick kick if we did not... and our intent was to change strength of formation on the 2nd and goal...the first call influenced the second- which was, in both my and the state evaluator's estimation, incorrect.
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