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Post by coachdubyah on Dec 1, 2009 11:03:34 GMT -6
The Tony Franklin Thread got me thinking about this. We all know about the Franklin debacle at Auburn, Malzahn at Arkansas, even heard of issues of Glanville's Run and Shoot at Portland State. A recent story that has not really been reported yet was Rob Spence (former Clemson Coordinator) getting fired a few days ago from Syracuse by HC Doug Marrone. A friend of mine experienced something like this in the past year at a 4a high school after only 3 games.
Here is my problem with all of this. I may not have all the facts on all these stories, but basically you have a OC brought in to run the offense. Half way through the season HC pulls the plug and starts doing his own thing. Now I know you work for the HC, but it just seems as though this stuff is happening all the time. I've only been coaching for a few years so maybe this happens more than I think. I don't know the whole story on the Syracuse thing, but from what I saw they improved offensively from last year. Marrone is a heck of a OC himself. He's the one who got the machine most of us witnessed last night. Spence is an excellent playcaller and QB coach. As far as the Franklin situation, why does he catch most of the flack? I watched the Alabama VS Auburn game this past weekend. The QB for Auburn (both for that matter) were not very impressive. What gives? Why is this constantly happening? Anyone ever experienced this? Why does it always seem to happen to OC's and not DC's? (Not picking on the Defensive guys; Love you anal Defensive guys!!!)
I hope this thread doesn't get out of hand, because I dont want to get into a coach bashing. Just want to get a good discussion going.
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redbug
Sophomore Member
Posts: 188
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Post by redbug on Dec 1, 2009 12:45:18 GMT -6
I only know that with Malzahn and Franklin that they were brought in against the head coaches wishes. In the end it all falls back on the head coach, and I don't blame them for taking over control. If they felt that what the OC or even DC were doing was unsound, it is up to them to step in and take control. If that coach isn't a "positive" to the over all program, or doesn't fall into the head coaches philosophies, it will never work. I don't blame the HC's for stepping in, I believe that the blame should fall on the individuals who threw someone on top of HC. The arkansas fan base wanted Malzahn at UA because of his accomplishments at a local high school. I think that Malzahn would have done a good job at UA, but the boosters and AD threw him at Nutt. It was a bad situation from the start. Nutt believes in running the football, and had Mcfadden and Felix in the backfield. Malzahn believed in throwing the football and Nutt wanted nothing to do with it. Nutt took it as a stab in the back for them to pick his offensive coordinator.
In the end both won. Nutt was on his way out at arkansas anyhow, too many dismal seasons and too many athletes leaving the state. He got a nice check from arkansas to leave, as well as a nice signing bonus for signing with Ole'Miss. I think he made some 3 mill in a 3 day time period.
Malzahn although not at arkansas got a chance to go to tulsa and put in his philosophies and have the highest outputting offense in the college football world. Now is at auburn where he was brought in and not forced on someone. He will be much better off and have a lot more leash to do what he wants now.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 1, 2009 13:58:45 GMT -6
Its probably as simple as any man trying to protect himself.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 1, 2009 14:00:17 GMT -6
I think that an HC really does have to be controlling; it's his a-- on the line every season. Even if Tubs has chosen to bring TF as an OC in on his own, recruited players to fit the spread system, but had the personality conflict issues between the staff and the OC, then he has the control and right to can the OC. It's that simple; he may take flak for it, but it is what it is.
Now, the unfortunate fact of the matter is that the 'spread offense' has been hyped up so much by the media, but people STILL don't understand the concept. They hear the word 'spread offense' and they think 4 and 5 WR formations and that's it. They don't understand the difference between the zone read spread, the single wing spread, the Air Raid spread, etc.etc.. H-ll, PJ is running a 'spread look' and people are still calling it the WISHBONE. I have heard commentators call it a 'power running' attack; they have no idea what the offense is geared to do. I have no issues with the spread offenses; it is a very sound philosophy, but it has gotten so mangled over the past few years..
I have read at least a dozen different articles over the past few years in SI and ESPN Mag pertaining to the 'spread offense' and the sports writers really don't have a clue what's going on with it..
So, the unfortunate fact of the matter is that the media sucks the fans in along with the boosters at big schools and before you know it, you have the sh-t storms you had at Auburn and Arkansas.
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Post by coachdubyah on Dec 1, 2009 16:50:32 GMT -6
Valid points have been made on all of this. I had no idea the coordinators were picked by the boosters. WOW!!! This is exactly why I don't think that I would ever want to coach at a big time college. Just wish the media would get a little more educated on the game before they start writing stuff about it. ESPN has about got it figured out by signing Gruden for MNF. Now if they could only find someone to replace Mike Tirico. LOL!!!
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Post by airraider on Dec 1, 2009 18:58:59 GMT -6
I remember getting my nuts ripped a couple
of years ago after saying that I felt that the HC should dictate
the type of system that the OC should run.
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Post by eickst on Dec 1, 2009 19:03:26 GMT -6
I think that if I was a HC, and I was picking an OC to come in and run an offense, I'd make damn sure that he was either
A) Going to run what I want and do it the way I wanted
or
B) Was so damn good at what he did that I had no right even suggesting anything different than what he envisioned.
Otherwise, why hire him? I want someone that is going to make the team better, if I thought I could do a better job why bother having an OC?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 21:36:38 GMT -6
I believe that the Head Coach has a right to be as involved as he desires because when the s**t hits the fan it is indeed his neck on the block. I believe that a Header should also hire a staff that he feels confident in and can delegate and trust to get the job done.
Speaking from my experience it is your job as OC to fit your ideas, with that of the HC. My header has done a great job of setting up the expectations and ideology of our system. He gives me freedom within this to add, mold, and experiment. I also know that when he wants this play ran or wants a certain thing done It is my job to do what he wants done because I am his ASSISTANT.
This may not always be true but a lot of times when coaches say a Header is to controlling, it is because he doesn't trust the assistants. So if your on that staff, keep plugging and working your butt off until he has know choice to trust you and give you responsibility.
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Post by k on Dec 2, 2009 12:07:22 GMT -6
Three years ago the HC wanted to micromanage things.
The rest of the staff was young and he didn't really trust us.
He wanted to know what drills we were doing in individual. Wanted meetings with us on sunday to set up what drills etc. Micromanaged who played what and when. He tried to do too much. Result 0-10.
This year he has given the DC complete authority and let him run his own show from day one. Instead of telling he'd ask if he saw something. He not once this year told my kids to do something. He came to me and would say "X is doing Y. Do you want him doing Y?" He treated the DC (HC = OC) as an equal and the DC delgated positions to us. End result? Best year in the program's history and a semi final appearance. Further a much happier coaching staff.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Dec 3, 2009 12:13:52 GMT -6
No personal beef there "K" but I disagree with your formula and assumption that 0-10 had to do with a meddling HC.
It might also be that you were a "young staff" 3 year ago, that the staff might not have know what was needed, the players didn't have the benefit of 3 years of work.
I believe that I have every right to know what drills my DB coach is doing, and frankly every coach out there better be doing what I want done. I currently have staff members that I don't let do whatever they want to do.
I only expect what I can inspect.
I know exactly every scheme that my DC is going to use because we work together. He might have some great ideas, but I'm not about to turn him loose and and not know what he's doing.
We work together.
If is possible that you've gotten better over the last 3 years and the HC can trust you now?
Again, no offense, just telling you my perspective.
OJW
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 3, 2009 18:19:58 GMT -6
Two points - As a HC at a small school you have to work with what you get. I've had coaches who I never gave a second thought because they were GREAT coaches and I've had young guys, guys in their 30's and guys in the 50's who I wrote down EVERY drill and detail because they needed it! I'm the HC and they darn well better do how I want! They can coach or I can micro-manage. Way back in the 90's I was hired at a pretty good NAIA school as the OC and told to bring in a passing game to complement their running game. During the time I was there we won a conference championship and went to the National playoffs, and I can only remember two times where the HC overruled one of my calls. The first time I was in the press box and I went ballistic over the head set! I was screaming at the o-line coach down on the field to put the head coach on .... but he wisely kept quiet and the header never knew what an a$$ I had been. The other time I was down on the field and he said "No, let's run ...." and I said "Good Call" and signaled in the play. HE IS THE HEAD COACH! If you don't like the way he does things, shut up and move on. Just my opinion  |
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Post by k on Dec 6, 2009 10:29:58 GMT -6
No personal beef there "K" but I disagree with your formula and assumption that 0-10 had to do with a meddling HC. It might also be that you were a "young staff" 3 year ago, that the staff might not have know what was needed, the players didn't have the benefit of 3 years of work. I believe that I have every right to know what drills my DB coach is doing, and frankly every coach out there better be doing what I want done. I currently have staff members that I don't let do whatever they want to do. I only expect what I can inspect. I know exactly every scheme that my DC is going to use because we work together. He might have some great ideas, but I'm not about to turn him loose and and not know what he's doing. We work together. If is possible that you've gotten better over the last 3 years and the HC can trust you now? Again, no offense, just telling you my perspective. OJW Oh no doubt we've become better coaches in the last three years and he trusts us a lot more now than he did then. That said I think even though he has been coaching for 30 years including at the D-I level trying to run everything yourself is just a recipe for disaster. I think there definitely is a connection between him trying to do everything a couple years ago and our awful record. The HC is now ONLY concerned with offense during games. He can better coach up the offensive kids and plan what he is doing. The DC just focuses on what the defense is doing. At the start of this year the HC/OC could tell you what we were doing on D and the DC could tell you what we were doing on O. By the end of the season neither could tell you anything that was put in over the course of the season. They focused on their job and as a result we had both the best offense and the best defense the program has ever had. I'm the line coach. Three years ago the HC wanted it the same way he had been teaching it for 30 years (He is the QB/RB coach and has never been the line coach). This year his attitude was if I wanted to change something I could do it. Blocking assignments, technique, etc has all been tweaked this year and I really believe we were a better team because of it. But you're right it is definitely a chicken vs egg situation regarding the end of the micromanaging and the success that followed. |
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Coach Unk
Junior Member
[F4:coachdonjones]
Posts: 392
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Post by Coach Unk on Dec 6, 2009 16:15:41 GMT -6
I feel that if the HC is too controlling, get your resume together and move on somewhere else with an HC you get along with. Or become an HC yourself.
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Post by phantom on Dec 6, 2009 16:41:21 GMT -6
I think that an HC really does have to be controlling; it's his a-- on the line every season. I hear that a lot. Aren't the assistants's a$$es on the line, too? |
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Post by zgo on Dec 6, 2009 16:53:00 GMT -6
A very wise coach told me once you the HC are only as good as your assistant's.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 7, 2009 10:31:29 GMT -6
Three years ago the HC wanted to micromanage things. The rest of the staff was young and he didn't really trust us. He wanted to know what drills we were doing in individual. Wanted meetings with us on sunday to set up what drills etc. Micromanaged who played what and when. He tried to do too much. Result 0-10. This year he has given the DC complete authority and let him run his own show from day one. Instead of telling he'd ask if he saw something. He not once this year told my kids to do something. He came to me and would say "X is doing Y. Do you want him doing Y?" He treated the DC (HC = OC) as an equal and the DC delgated positions to us. End result? Best year in the program's history and a semi final appearance. Further a much happier coaching staff. No disrespect by I also disagree that the HC micromanaging was the problem. I've never been a part of a program where the HC didn't at least know what drills the players were doing during individuals. HC's should know what's going on at all times. If he lets the OC or DC have full reign he still needs to know everything they are doing. |
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Post by lukethadrifter on Dec 7, 2009 18:00:14 GMT -6
I am currently a head football coach, and this is not my first head coaching job. I was a varsity asst. coach for many years. The head coach must make expectations to all assts. clear from day one. If the head coach wants to have the final say-so on offensive, defensive, and special teams decisions during a game, for example, then let your coaches know this from day one. Pulling the rug out from under an OC or DC, who you have trusted to call the shots and make adjustments during a game, is usually not a good idea. On the other hand, the head coach is ultimately the person who is laying their job on the line every Friday night. My advice is as a head coach, hire someone who controls one side of the ball, while you as the head coach control the other side of the ball. All final gameplans are ran by the head coach for his approval before the game on Friday. Communicate, communicate, communicate.... As a head coach, it is your responsibility to surround yourself with the best possible coaching staff that you can. The overall staff must have a general philosophy of what it takes to have a winning program. I was told by a legendary Texas high school coach years ago that if I ever became a head coach, that I would want to be the type of head coach that I would have liked to work under as an assistant. So this got me to thinking. What were some qualities of a few great head coaches that I have had the priviledge to work under as a coach. #1 on the list is that these great head coaches that I coached under hired coaches who they trusted, AND THEN THEY LEFT US ALONE, AND ALLOWED US TO COACH! In other words, don't micro-manage. In coaching meetings, there will be disagreements. This is normal. As long as coaches can disagree without being disagreeable. Each coach must be allowed to grow and to have a voice and an opinion. This doesn't necessarily mean that the head coach is always going to agree with you or use your idea, but at least you do have a voice and are made to feel that your efforts are key to the program's success. My coaches know what I expect out of them. I expect them to coach with the same dedication and energy that I coach with. If you micro-manage your assistants, particularly the bright ones who have a great future, you will run them off. I've seen it happen. Just my 2 cents. Luke
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Post by coachdubyah on Dec 7, 2009 19:36:34 GMT -6
I am currently a head football coach, and this is not my first head coaching job. I was a varsity asst. coach for many years. The head coach must make expectations to all assts. clear from day one. If the head coach wants to have the final say-so on offensive, defensive, and special teams decisions during a game, for example, then let your coaches know this from day one. Pulling the rug out from under an OC or DC, who you have trusted to call the shots and make adjustments during a game, is usually not a good idea. On the other hand, the head coach is ultimately the person who is laying their job on the line every Friday night. My advice is as a head coach, hire someone who controls one side of the ball, while you as the head coach control the other side of the ball. All final gameplans are ran by the head coach for his approval before the game on Friday. Communicate, communicate, communicate.... As a head coach, it is your responsibility to surround yourself with the best possible coaching staff that you can. The overall staff must have a general philosophy of what it takes to have a winning program. I was told by a legendary Texas high school coach years ago that if I ever became a head coach, that I would want to be the type of head coach that I would have liked to work under as an assistant. So this got me to thinking. What were some qualities of a few great head coaches that I have had the priviledge to work under as a coach. #1 on the list is that these great head coaches that I coached under hired coaches who they trusted, AND THEN THEY LEFT US ALONE, AND ALLOWED US TO COACH! In other words, don't micro-manage. In coaching meetings, there will be disagreements. This is normal. As long as coaches can disagree without being disagreeable. Each coach must be allowed to grow and to have a voice and an opinion. This doesn't necessarily mean that the head coach is always going to agree with you or use your idea, but at least you do have a voice and are made to feel that your efforts are key to the program's success. My coaches know what I expect out of them. I expect them to coach with the same dedication and energy that I coach with. If you micro-manage your assistants, particularly the bright ones who have a great future, you will run them off. I've seen it happen. Just my 2 cents. Luke[/quote/] Awesome! |
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Dec 7, 2009 22:09:48 GMT -6
Luke,
that was awesome.
I agree to the point that I know that my guys know what THEY are doing.
The "pain in the a&*" thing is very important also. It's obvious that there are some of us who are just plain jerks, no question.
However, most of us aren't that way, and we want the best for everyone.
As a head coach, I want to know what everyone is doing. However, I do good by bringing in smart guys that can bring something to the table. I like that.
I value everyone's opinion, I let everyone have their say, however, it's not a democracy.
OJW
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Post by lukethadrifter on Dec 8, 2009 7:08:44 GMT -6
Coachdubyah and outlawjoseywales, I appreciate your comments. I always enjoy reading you guys' posts. Outlaw does bring up a good point though. In most cases you don't get to choose every one of your assistants. Some of them were there when you arrived at the school. I currently have one very young and "green" coach on my staff. I try to give him space to coach, but on the same token, he needs some guidance often as well. He at times displays some of your common mistakes of coaches who are in their first or second year. He tries to be a little too friendly with the kids instead of working their tail off and earning their respect. He needs to not waste any time and be more organized with exactly what drills he is going to use with his individual period daily that he has with his offensive and defensive kids. He needs to show more emotion and coach 'em up instead of at times "coaching" by watching them with his hands in his pockets. This coach is bright, but he is young, and has some things to learn like we all did when we first started out. So I am not saying that he was totally cut loose from day 1 to do his thing 100%. He was watched closely and was complimented by me on the things that he did good, and we talked privately a few times early on some areas where he had to improve. That is why in a perfect world as a head coach, you would get to choose every one of your assistants; but usually this does not happen. The only time that I have seen this happen is when a head coach stays at a school for years and years; and over time assembles a staff that he wants.
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