Pros and Cons to Pop Warner

"we have not been a successful program and worry about filling teams late in the registration process. Could being affiliated with Pop Warner help us?"

--I fail to see how being affiliated with Pop Warner would help with turnout. Kids will turn out if your organization is well run, regardless of who it's affiliated with.

--Dave

Our program was in PW through about 2001 and then rejoined this past season. I will agree with the others that it is largely a non-issue with regard to late sign-ups. The major benefits to being in PW are the name recognition (which might help some with overall turnout, but probably not with timing), and the lure of a national championship game in Florida that's shown on national TV (of course, that only affects 8 or so teams in each age group out of 1000s, and only the Midget division game is shown on TV). Again, that may be a draw for some, but probably won't help with timing.

On the negative side, PW has a lot of rules that limit your flexibility. They have weight limits for all players (not just for ball carriers as is the case for most independent leagues). They specify when your local league may start practice, scrimmages, and regular season games, and when your local playoffs must end so that your teams will be available for their national tournament. They generally forbid your teams from ever playing any non-PW teams (that includes scrimmages, out of league regular season games and post-season bowl games). They require all PW programs to purchase PW patches and put them on every player's uniform (more on the $$ issue later). They endorse the use of older-lighter players (meaning if the Pee Wee division is for 9-11 yr-olds up to 125 lbs, they will also allow 12 yr-olds up to 105 lbs). This leads to abuses with coaches recruiting and/or sweating down talented, but smaller older players to try to load up their teams with O/Ls. O/Ls have a tremendous advantage wrt to maturity and are often faster and more athletic than their younger counterparts. If your league doesn't abuse the O/L rule, then you will be at a significant disadvantage in post season tournament play. Speaking of abuses, PW has addedd (since we were last involved) divisions within each age group. So Division 1 is supposed to be the "A" teams and then Division 2 is supposed to allow weaker teams to compete on a more level playing field. So, for programs that field more than one team per age group, they are encouraged (almost forced) to load up one team with all-stars and leave all the MPPs on the other team. Also, there is a strong incentive for teams that know they're good enough to finish 3rd or 4th in Division 1, but know they can't win it all, to drop down to Division 2 to try to win a championship, creating an even bigger chasm between the top and bottom in Div 2. Apparently, from what I've heard, this type of abuse is rampant, especially amongst the bigger conferences.

PW is greedy when it comes to money. In addition to the patches mentioned above, their national fees are substantially higher than other organizations (and, of course, independent leagues have NO national fees). They also require a huge percentage of revenues from cheer competitions to go to PW rather than back to the local orgs. For instance, the first year after we left PW in the early 2000s, we netted something ridiculous like $15-$20K more from our conference cheer competition than we had the year before.

Hopefully that gives you some insights. Good luck.

The terminology that PW uses includes the word "Association" to refer to a program - i.e. a collection of teams in various age/weight divisions all in the same geographic area and sharing the same facilities, equipment, etc. So, if I say I coach the Midget level Redondo Beach Sea Hawks, the Midget team is my team, but we are part of the Redondo Beach Association. Each Association, in turn, belongs to a larger group - a collection of Associations that all play each other. We call this a conference, but others might call it a league. PW calls this the "Highest Local Authority (HLA)" (at least, I'm pretty sure that's what they used to call it - I'm going off my memory from about 10 yrs ago, LOL). And, of course, the national organization is Pop Warner. So, in my case, the PW terminology would be:

- The 26 kids on our Midget division group were our Team.
- Our team was part of the Redondo Beach "Association"
- The Redondo Beach Association belongs to the Southern California Conference "HLA"
- The Southern California Conference is a member of the Pop Warner national organization

Given that, I'm pretty sure coachcardwell meant that he is on the Board of his association. In most cases (at least that I'm aware of) the Board of the HLA consists of the Presidents of the members Association and a handful of elected officials. In most cases those elected officials come from the ranks of the association presidents, or at least their boards, so it would be pretty unusual for a 22 yr-old to be in one of those positions.

OK here is the breakdown for us. Where our team is located there are over 20 teams within 10 miles. Politics play a BIG part in where kids signup to play in this area. Im sure it is similar in many other places. Nobody wants to go play for a losing team so the best players go to teams who win. Most of the winning teams are full but always find ways to steal players from us that could help them. Along with those players go the best volunteering parents and relatives. The types of players we get in our program are generally first year players who have parents that complain about EVERYTHING! Every year we put ads in the paper, send school flyers, post registration links on the web site, etc. We have tried alot of the ways Dave Cisars book says to recruit players. This past season we had 7 players on our 5-7 year old team until the week before the first game. We eneded up with 18 players on the team and 10 of them being 5 years old. We had 5 teams ages 5-15 and we won a total of 10 games between the 5 teams in the regular season. Maybe this was the wrong thread subject Im not sure. I know we are looking for any help that would be provided. My thought was that Pop Warner could help with name recognition in the area. Not sure. Thanks for the replies though guys!

Okay, it sounds like you have a big problem with the conference your program belongs to. I'm not sure a switch to Pop Warner is going to help a lot with your numbers, though - if the local kids want to play for the existing successful programs, they're probably not going to suddenly find your program attractive just because you join a PW conference. They'll be interested in joining your program as soon as you start having some success, regardless of what conference or national affiliation you have or don't have. I gave a bunch of ideas on how to accomplish this in the other thread ("Turning around a youth league").

If you decide to stay where you're at conference wise (which would be my recommendation, at least for now), you need to try to get the conference to either establish some rules about where kids have to play or start enforcing the rules they already have. Well run conferences (or leagues, or whatever you call your HLA) don't allow kids to play in any organization they want to. Otherwise, you end up with exactly the situation you're describing - all the kids (at least all the good athletes) go to play in the successful programs until the weaker programs either fold or just can't compete. The successful programs just add teams, and sometimes will have 3 or 4 teams playing at each age level. At some point, though, if this continues, all the programs but one shut down and that program fields 8-10 teams per age level that just play each other - i.e. that one program becomes the conference. Well, that's just kind of stupid, so well run conferences stop that type of behavior before it can really get started. Here are some of the things your conference should be doing:

• There should be a well-established boundary map with clearly defined boundaries. If a player lives within your program's boundaries, he must play in your program unless he gets a waiver. The only exception is for head coaches - their kids can play for them wherever they coach without a waiver. Assistant coaches get no such break though - they must coach in their home program is they want to coach their own kid.
  
  
• Waivers are only given out for true hardship cases, which must be documented. A player can play outside of his home program only if he goes to school in another area or has after school daycare in another area and getting to practice in his home area would be too difficult. And then, the waiver can only be to the program where the school or daycare is. And proof of enrollment at the school or daycare must be provided. In our conference, if the presidents of both affected programs approve the waiver request (in writing) prior to it being submitted to the conference commissioners, it can expedite the approval process, but won't guarantee approval - if there is not a true hardship, the waiver will be denied. The only other reason for a waiver is to grandfather a kid that moves. If a kid starts out with a program and the family moves, but that kid wants to stay in his first program, then he will be allowed to, as will any siblings (so long as the family's involvement in the program is continual - if there is a one or two-yr break after one kid finishes and before his little brother starts, little brother has to play in the new home program).
  
  
• Report cards are to be collected as part of the registration procedure. If the address on the child's report card does not match the home address on his football registration, or if the school is not in the area where the child claims to live, it launches an automatic investigation. If the child moved since the last quarter, he must produce proof of enrollment at his new school. If he is going to school out of his area, there better be a good explanation and supporting documentation from the school, especially if the program where the school is located is weak, and the one where he claims to live is strong. If Mom and Dad live in the school's area, but Jr. claims to be living with his auntie in the other territory, Jr. is automatically re-assigned to the program where his school is located.
  
  
• There need to be severe penalties for illegally obtaining a waiver or falsifying info to play in another program. If a kid plays out of his correct program and gets caught, the program he played in should at least get fined, and the coaches and/or players agent (or registrar as some places call it) should be suspended for a game or otherwise punished (assuming it was unintentional on their part). If it was determined to be intentional, then the participating party should be suspended for at least a year for a first offense and given a lifetime suspension for any subsequent offense. You could also consider expelling the kid and/or his parents from the conference.

If your conference is just letting kids play in whatever program they want to and won't change or enforce their rules, then you probably should consider a change to another conference/organization, but don't be surprised if things get even tougher in the short-term.

Again, I wish you the best of luck - it sounds like you're in a pretty tough situation.

In order to have a sustainable and successful youth football program, you have to be able to manage parents well.

Ive found most orgs have far more problems than we do because:

They do not set black and white reasonably attainable expectations

Expections they often do set are set late, change and are not enforced

Expectations are set very low, struggling orgs often act like beggars

Quality happens when you set the bar high and hold coaches, parents and players accountable

Our practices are fun as well and when you consistently win, most problems go away

Ive had maybe 2 parent interactions face to face that were negative in the last 6 years. Set high expectations, deliver, be well organized, hold your ground, be DIFFERENT, understand your critical success factors and stay focused on them, stay true to your well defined mission and be a good manager/businessman (my background) and anyone can build a great Organization. I started and built 2, one of which got to 400 kids in about 5 years. Talk to those that have actually done it successfully like coachdoug or DP. Many "authors/experts" out there havent even been a HC for more than 1 season or even ran an org or started one etc. The ones that have been there can tell you what is doable and not. Different from chest thumping hot air breathers that are brave when behind a keyboard,, but have never done it in real life etc

Most that havent been in that role have no clue how much work it is or what is really important. Dont pay attention to the the guy whose Orgs are always ofer the season year after year or have kids that never show etc- copy someone that has had success, one you want to be like. Maybe do pay attention to him- do the opposite of everything he suggests.

I ALWAYS have the registration fee with me in cash along with the phone numbers of our competition. Any problem not meeting the contract the player or parent signed, problem parent, please move on. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, be a pain in the butt to someone else. WHen we were struggling with the Omaha deal and I changed gears, I booted 11 families, the next year 5, the following year 2, the next year I didnt have to get rid of anyone, everyone "got" it , knew we meant business and it wasnt all talk. Quality attracts quality, set the bar low and that's exactly what you will get, bottom of the barrel.

Too many ORgs cow tow to the parents. Before the first practice and at every banquet, I tell the parents, PLEASE GO SOMEWHERE ELSE if this is not a good fit for you, do not be a complainer, because Im not negotiating or changing anything one iota, this is the way it is. IF you want to play in a place with lower or no standards, where kids dont have to come to practice or parents can act like buffons in the stands, PLEASE LEAVE RIGHT NOW> Please do, not a problem, here are the names and phone numbers, which I always carry in my pocket at all times. I turn it around on them, make it scarce etc

How does it work?

We are full now for our 3-4th grade team RIGHT NOW for next year. In a town of 1100, we signed up 19 new kids with no recruiting, no adds, no signs etc First 25 checks that reach me, the kids have a spot. In last 3 days Ive had people I have no clue of who they are have stopped by my home unannounced at night to make sure they got a spot. 8:30 on a Thursday night. I had 1 guy here at 7:15 am on Friday. All from word of mouth, beating down my door etc.

Im Omaha 1 year I had over 200 kids on our waiting list and we had the largest program in Omaha proper at the time. BTW since I left Omaha and turned the program over to my former church, their kinder gentler be all things to all people method has taken a program that was at 400 and had bseball and basketball too and consistently won to an also ran with less than 100 kids.

I wish we could ban all parents from games, and just send them the DVD after each game. But winning solves most issues, just like Dave said.

Pop Warner is VERY stringent about ages and weights, nearly impossible to make it in by fraud. They are vigilant about this, weekly weigh ins and book verifications before every game. One of the main reasons many go PW< While there are 1000s of PW teams out there and leagues of varying quality, Ive not heard anyone tell me of this type of abuse.

Do teams stack older lighters? yes, but not illegal kids from what Ive heard.

Do those accusations come from persons involved now or recently in Pop Warner, or do they come from people involved in other football organiz'ns or even other sports? Do you hear or see complaints from persons involved now or recently in Pop Warner about their own teams being wrongly accused of playing ringers? If I didn't hear of the latter, I wouldn't put much stock in the former.

^{Pop Warner is VERY stringent about ages and weights, nearly impossible to make it in by fraud. They are vigilant about this, weekly weigh ins and book verifications before every game. One of the main reasons many go PW< While there are 1000s of PW teams out there and leagues of varying quality, Ive not heard anyone tell me of this type of abuse.}


LOL,

I've got some kids on my high school team that told me how their coach had them weigh in with a special set of shoulder pads/thigh pads and helmet, and then go around the corner and change out to their normal gear.....no kidding....
Another one? Sure, I'm bored......a coach a few years got caught cheating when league officials went to an address to verify a kids address....the address was a bare lot/field....Turns out the completely false documents that they forged (yes, FORGED), were pretty good, but somebody blew the whistle....

Played in a bowl game in CA (twice) where we weren't allowed to see the other teams weigh in......but, they had their people there for our kids weigh ins......nice.......we thumped them both times too........

Played a bowl game in San Diego where one of their kids was 4 pounds over (and an absolute STUD LB) but their association director threatened (his kid was their QB, and the director announced the game to boot...LOL) to eject our HC unless their kid was allowed to play.....yep, absolute truth.....we kicked their A$$ anyway so it didn't matter....
Here's a beauty...........had two kids that were on our team get recruited in the offseason to play in another part of town (about 30 miles away)......the guy PAID cash to the kid's parents and provided a driver to ferry the kids to and from practice............nice twist to the story...., the guy's wife was on the board of directors............BTW, guess who got seeded first in the playoffs that year out of the 4 undefeated teams............LOL, that's ok, they went down too...........as for how do I know they got paid? One of the two kids parents told me after the year.....

Yep, it might be tough to cheat in PW, but it ain't impossible.....

Well, I don't know if it's any worse in PW than anywhere else, but I too have seen plenty of cheating in PW. As jhanawa said, I've seen kids changing gear between weigh-ins and games (we changed our weigh-in rule when we left PW to have the kids weigh-in without shoulder pads to allievate that particular problem). With scanners, good color printers, etc., it is much easier now to forge documents than it used to be. Someone who is halfway decent on a computer can make very good looking documents in an afternoon. Let's face it - the people reviewing these docs have neither the time nor the expertise to carefully or competently check every document.

For us, the rules regarding weigh-ins, documentation, picture ID cards, etc. have been largely the same in PW, AYF and when we've been independent and the level of cheating has been pretty consistent as well, except that it's gone down over time. We've certainly made the penalites much steeper - when I first started coaching in 94 I think the only penalty for using an illegal player was probation for the coach and forfeiture of whatever games the illegal player played in. Now, if a program gets caught using an illegal player, the President of the program gets an automatic 1-yr suspension and the coach is suspended for life. A second incident from the same program will get the President sustpended for life as well. Of course, all the games are forfeited as well.

The most egregious case I ever saw was in the early 90s - one team in our conference had a 15 yr old HS freshman playing on MITEY MITE!! He was tiny, but going up against 2nd & 3rd graders, you can imagine how much he dominated. They forged all his paperwork, and he only got caught when a group from another program got together and hired a private investigator to follow this kid around. I can only imagine the looks on commissioners faces when they were presented with photos of this Mitey Mite kid going in and out of his HS. LOL.