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Post by coachinghopeful on Nov 5, 2009 21:56:28 GMT -6
As I'm working on my teaching cert. now I'm taking a long look at the job opportunities I expect to be available when I'm done. Since everyone on this board has always been so helpful and HONEST--which I appreciate VERY much--I'd love to hear some opinions on where I should maybe focus my job search.
For a young coach who's trying to learn the game and establish himself for an eventual H.S. HC gig (or at least a coordinator/valued position coach on a good staff), which of the following 7 jobs do you think might be more beneficial as his first paying job? These are all just hypothetical situations, but I think they sum up my job options pretty well.
School A: Low paying county job at a smaller rural school with a poor academic/administrative reputation and an even worse football team. Footballwise, there's no tradition, talent, or history to speak of, yet the HC has been there several years so the program is fairly stable. They lose their most talented players/coaches to recruiting by a more prestigious/well-funded rival. They need committed assistant coaches BADLY, and a small staff probably means a lot of early opportunities/responsibilities for me to take on. There are also several other schools in the district I can possibly transfer to if a HC job opens up.
School B: My alma mater, another fairly low paying county school job. As someone who grew up here, I know a ton of info about the off-field realities. There's a lot of good (great fan support, ok facilities, some talent, and old tradition) and bad (weak academics, apathetic/bitter teachers, high turnover, some really weak assistant coaches, tough league, a lot of political meddling, currently on a 15 game losing streak). The current HC seems to know his stuff and has tons of GREAT connections in the field, but the remaining staff under him is fairly suspect and he might be getting forced out if he doesn't do better next year. I'm not well connected there, but the HC seems like a good man who needs all the help he can get, and I think he could do a lot for my career if I earn it.
School C: Big suburban city school. Basically, the cream of the crop as far as local football goes. Pays very well compared to everyone else with good admin, great tradition, great talent, and just an all around great situation. I have a few old, but not very strong, connections to important people on staff at two of these schools. If I were to get hired on I know I could learn a lot, but I'd be very low on the totem pole on a very big, very stable, very good, and very experienced staff and would probably never get much opportunity to move up. I'd definitely have to go to a different system and start over again on the pay scale to be a HC.
School D: Another county school, but a much better situation. Young, energetic, popular HC who's only a few years older than me and has done an outstanding job of rebuilding the program. School doesn't have much money, but they make the most of what they get and have a good admin and working environment. They don't need coaches, so if I get hired as a teacher they'd probably look at any help I provide my first year as a bonus. I know I can learn a ton and have potential to rise through the ranks in time here, and maybe even become a HC at another school in the same district at some point.
School E: Move far, far away to a rebuilding job in a different part of the country that badly needs coaches and teachers. I wouldn't know much about the area or the situation, but I'd go in with some pretty impressive (to me, anyway) varsity responsibilities right away. As much as I'd like that experience, I'm also worried about being thrown in way over my head way too soon. This will be my first year teaching.
School F: Relocate to take a job in an inner city school in a major metropolitan area. School has a bad reputation, is desperate for teachers and coaches, probably a bad working environment, but they've got some impressive athletes. I'd probably be able to move up to a coordinator position pretty quickly because they can't keep anybody. If nothing else, it would be getting my foot in the door in a large district where coaching gigs are opening up all the time if I want to transfer.
School J: Take a Middle School job as part of a 2 or 3 man staff. I'd get a crash course in the admin. aspects of coaching without nearly as much pressure (or notoriety) as a varsity coach would have in the same role. Then I could use this as a springboard onto one of the varsity staffs described above after a year or two.
OR...
Since I'm new to teaching, should I just try to get a job in a school with good administration and let the football take care of itself?
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Post by coachks on Nov 5, 2009 22:12:46 GMT -6
Definately not A, B or F.
Of the options, C is probably the best (IMO). Good people and very little outside interference is the key to enjoying the experience. Losing isn't fun (duh), but it's even less fun when you are losing because of administration, other coaches and a poor community. Those things are going to be beyond your control as an assistant.
Spending 2 or 3 years there getting yoru feet wet may be the best otpion.
Otherwise, J sounds decent. The lower the level, the more emphasis on fundamentals you can use and the less distraction with X's and O's.
D would probably alright....but why D over C?
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Post by mariner42 on Nov 5, 2009 23:11:03 GMT -6
If it were me: D > C > J If there were more sure-fire jobs out Californi-way I'd tell you to visit out here and see if we can work something out, but I'm fighting for a stable job situation myself. I will say that the weather's amazing and the ladies are better  |
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coachriley
Junior Member
"Tough times don't last; Tough people do."
Posts: 406
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Post by coachriley on Nov 5, 2009 23:25:54 GMT -6
I like Options C, D, and J coach.
With C like you said, you have a great chance to learn a lot of good football, but cant mvoe up in the ranks. Honestly, I havent known too many coaches that stayed at the same school their entire time as they became a HC.
D sounds really good and probably the best option. As much as we all love coaching, we have to remember that our main job is teaching and having a good atmosphere to teach is the most important. That way, despite whatever that will happen in the classroom, it hopefulyl wont be that bad and you can focus on football when you are out on the field.
Obviously J is a good option because its a lower level and less stress and you can just get use to teaching.
These are just my opinions. In my first coaching position last year I was lucky to get in with a small school program with two coaches that had coached me in high school and it was a system I was familiar with, so it helped out a ton. Best of luck with your decision.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Nov 6, 2009 4:27:34 GMT -6
In this economy the focus should be a VERY INTENSIVE EFFORT to secure tenure in your teaching position. Make certain that your teaching career is your very first priority and it shows that way to administrators.
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Post by John Knight on Nov 6, 2009 6:17:02 GMT -6
Why does J come after F? LOL!!
My advice is stay in school a few more years and be a GA if you can find one. There are often chances to get on with a college staff and you can get your masters paid that way and you may never have to go into teaching. Right now teaching is getting to the point it is a real PIA for new teachers and the really good incentives are disappearing. Retirement and health insurance are quickly changing and the burdens that are being added to teachers by NCLB and testing are no fun!
Just my two cents.
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Post by rcole on Nov 6, 2009 9:08:29 GMT -6
If I could go back to the beginning and do it over, I would have gotten on at a winning school in any position they would let me. I chose jobs based on opportunity to hold position and "express my talents" and move up the ranks...I think that was my biggest mistake. Go somewhere that will win conference titles and play for state titles..don't worry about pay or job titles or opportunity to advance within the program. Winning will give you opportunity to advance elsewhere.
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Post by John Knight on Nov 6, 2009 10:07:17 GMT -6
One other point. In Ohio at least, teaching jobs are getting much harder to come by. If they change the retirement rules to mandatory 35 like the STRS wants then we will have less turnover rates. You may just have to take what you can get.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Nov 6, 2009 10:20:29 GMT -6
Why does J come after F? LOL!! My advice is stay in school a few more years and be a GA if you can find one. There are often chances to get on with a college staff and you can get your masters paid that way and you may never have to go into teaching. Right now teaching is getting to the point it is a real PIA for new teachers and the really good incentives are disappearing. Retirement and health insurance are quickly changing and the burdens that are being added to teachers by NCLB and testing are no fun! Just my two cents. F is before J just because that's the order I thought of it ;D As for staying in school and being a GA that sounds great... but I already am a non-football GA getting most of my Master's paid for (student teaching has to be on my own dime). Maybe if I go back to school for my Ed.S or PhD  Unfortunately, my school dropped football a few years ago, so GAing or volunteering here wasn't an option. I REALLY wish I could've done that, but in the long term I think I'll be happier at the H.S. level. |
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Post by kylem56 on Nov 6, 2009 10:23:19 GMT -6
Definently C or D . Go where you can learn and see how a winning program operates
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Post by coachinghopeful on Nov 6, 2009 10:28:31 GMT -6
In this economy the focus should be a VERY INTENSIVE EFFORT to secure tenure in your teaching position. Make certain that your teaching career is your very first priority and it shows that way to administrators. So do you think I should focus on teaching first and just let the football stuff work itself out? |
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Post by John Knight on Nov 6, 2009 10:28:50 GMT -6
I was a student assistant/student teacher so I guess I was just lucky. There are high schools in rural ohio that may let you coach while you student teach. Where are you located? Keep an eye on this site, you never know what might pop up. www.footballscoop.com/?cat=24 |
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Post by jackedup on Nov 6, 2009 10:38:36 GMT -6
I personally like your last option. Find a school where teaching fits you best and then let football come 2nd. Going from being a student teacher to an actual teacher is very difficult but to add pressure on yourself as a varsity coach or whatever might take away from getting yourself established as a teacher. Think about what you're going to do longer... teach or coach... which one are you getting paid for... teaching or coaching?
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Post by coachcb on Nov 6, 2009 10:41:01 GMT -6
Something else to think about; although I know you want to get a HS job quickly, don't be afraid to work in the middle schools. I learned a lot about the game and the kids working at the middle school level. More sport psychology methods were well honed because I was working with kids that were generally a pain in the butt.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Nov 6, 2009 10:41:35 GMT -6
LOL. I'm going to be English and Social Studies. I looked at adding a 3rd endorsement in Math or Physics but it's an extra 21 hrs. Gotta love academic B.S.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Nov 6, 2009 10:49:28 GMT -6
Maybe you're right about the M.S. stuff. I'll have to take a second look at that. Is there any truth to what I've heard about a stigma attached to M.S. and youth coaches by many HS coaches and administrators when you're trying to move up?
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Post by phantom on Nov 6, 2009 10:57:21 GMT -6
In this economy the focus should be a VERY INTENSIVE EFFORT to secure tenure in your teaching position. Make certain that your teaching career is your very first priority and it shows that way to administrators. So do you think I should focus on teaching first and just let the football stuff work itself out? No question. That's where your paycheck and benefits will be coming from. |
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Post by Wingtman on Nov 6, 2009 11:26:53 GMT -6
I went from a high school staff to a middle school staff the last two years (change of job and what not).
I miss being a full time varsity coach (I'm on phones with our DC on Fridays). However, I've enjoyed the MS experince. Kids are egar to learn, and being the HC this year has really helped me prepare for a big job someday. Am I ready for that? No, but I did get to do alot of adminstrative stuff, that being a varsity coach I wouldnt have done.
Personally I say take whatever job best fits you. Where do you want to go? The thing about MS is its a shorter season, and maybe you can help out with the varsity to "be seen" by varsity coaches. Plus like was said, pick the best TEACHING job. Thats what needs to be most important.
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Post by fbcoach74 on Nov 6, 2009 11:28:30 GMT -6
I started out as a volunteer middle school coach in 2000 and then was a full time ms coach in 2001. I think it really helped me become a better coach. I was fresh out of College and was a career linemen, so it helped me coach other positions and get a better feel of putting the entire picture together. I felt I worked hard at it and then in 2002 I moved to JV and o-line coach where I stayed until 2006 when i became a HC. But i still fee ms is a good way to start out.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 6, 2009 11:30:55 GMT -6
Here are the two best pieces of advice I have ever recieved:
1. Make the teaching position the most important aspect in your career search as you will spend a lot more time in the classroom than on the field.
2. Coach with people you like and trust. This should be above all else. A winning program is not near as important as the last two. Good energetic coaches who do things the righ way can make a difference in the win loss column.
I have been led astray and down the wrong path on many occaisions by my own ego, thinking that I should do this or that to avoid a certain stigma.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 6, 2009 12:13:02 GMT -6
Maybe you're right about the M.S. stuff. I'll have to take a second look at that. Is there any truth to what I've heard about a stigma attached to M.S. and youth coaches by many HS coaches and administrators when you're trying to move up? No, as long as you're a good coach and do right by the kids. I think it's one of the best ways to move up because it shows that you can work with MS kids; they can be a handful. The problem with those levels is that it is very hard to find people to coach. So, you end up with people that probably shouldn't be there. There's a lot of coaches down at those levels that don't understand that those are developmental areas. You have to play all the kids; most schools and programs have you sign an expectations sheet detailing so.. But, they 'play to win', most of the kids don't see the field, parents complain and the whole thing turns into a problem. But, because they can't find coaches, those guys end up coaching for a few more years. And there's usually issues because there's no emphasis on fundamentals; everyone is watching Monday Night Football and trying to out scheme each other. So, the HS coaches get the next batch of kids, they can't block, shed, tackle, etc.. And it makes their life harder. Had a MS coach once that had been canned for not playing all the kids (and for just generally treating them poorly). They were struggling to find coaches, so they hired him back. Same thing happened, he gets fired, they bring him back for a third try. So, as long as you follow the program's expectations with playing time, teach the fundamentals and treat the kids right, you'll move up quick. I moved up in that manner and it did me a lot of good because I learned to put the kids first and everything else second. I also promote the MS route because a lot of guys that jump straight into a HS season don't know how stressful and time consuming it is. It's a shock to the system, even if you have an idea of what you're getting into. With the MS route, the seasons are shorter, you get a feeling for the schedule and when you get to that next level, it's less stressful. |
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Post by hamerhead on Nov 6, 2009 12:35:53 GMT -6
No, as long as you're a good coach and do right by the kids. I think it's one of the best ways to move up because it shows that you can work with MS kids; they can be a handful. The problem with those levels is that it is very hard to find people to coach. So, you end up with people that probably shouldn't be there. I also promote the MS route because a lot of guys that jump straight into a HS season don't know how stressful and time consuming it is. It's a shock to the system, even if you have an idea of what you're getting into. With the MS route, the seasons are shorter, you get a feeling for the schedule and when you get to that next level, it's less stressful. Amen. I've been teaching Middle School for five years now and coached MS for my first four years. It's an awesome place to learn the ropes because it absoloutely stresses how you TEACH the game to the kids. If they don't do something, its very likely you never showed them. Plus, it can be A LOT more fun because it's less stressfull and the kids are generally so excited to be there. I moved up this season and although I thought for sure I knew what I was getting into, I wasn't prepared for the hours or the stress. Especially since I pride myself on being an above average teacher and I'm not sure I was during the varsity season. I just didn't have time I was used to having. I would highly recomend the MS route. There are certainly drawbacks. It can be frustrating because the kids know so little. You REALLY get tired of dealing with equipment and mommies running on the field every time little johnny takes a lick. Plus, I'm told that sometimes its hard on the resume because it looks like that's all you can do if you stay there too long (don't know that I buy that theory). Also, because its so hard to find good MS coaches, yet they are so imperative to the success of a good varsity program, if you prove to be one then administrators tend to try and keep you there, in my experience. Still, I'd recomend it. You've got to find a balance between opportunities and successfull programs, but I've learned you have to be patient and absoloutely MUST value the teaching position more than the coaching position for all the reasons others have mentioned. |
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Post by mariner42 on Nov 6, 2009 13:29:48 GMT -6
Here are the two best pieces of advice I have ever recieved:2. Coach with people you like and trust. This should be above all else. A winning program is not near as important as the last two. Good energetic coaches who do things the righ way can make a difference in the win loss column. This is why I said D over C, personally. As a young guy, coaching with other young guys is a hoot when I've had the opportunity. Plus, it sounds like a low-pressure coaching situation where you could come in and HAVE FUN! (OH MY GOD WHAT DID HE JUST SAY???) I'd be STOKED to have another young, motivated, ambitious guy on our staff, even if he got relegated to JV or Frosh just because we lack those in a big way. As far as the teaching/coaching thing: It's been made abundantly clear to me, another guy in the very same point in the process as you, that I must demonstrate I'm a teacher-coach, not coach-teacher. If it means the football aspect of your life must suffer (less time watching film, etc) because you're spending more time on lesson plans and hoop jumping, so be it! The football time you allot yourself must be flexible, because the teaching time won't be. |
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Post by coachinghopeful on Nov 6, 2009 15:44:35 GMT -6
Thanks guys. This is really helping me put things together. I really appreciate it. And Mariner42... if the State of California wasn't in such a mess right now, I'd be on my way there as soon as I get my certificate |
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Post by coachorr on Nov 6, 2009 15:57:49 GMT -6
If you are thinking about moving out of state, make sure that the state you are going to has reciprocity with the state you are coming from. If not, know what the reqs are to transfer. I received a degree from universtiy of Phoenix and I had to go to AZ to take their Praxis to become certified, then I had to take the Praxi again in Idaho. Talk about hoops.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 7, 2009 13:18:05 GMT -6
The one after J...(but apparently before G, H, AND I lol...English certified???)
Also, if you aren't set with living in any particular place, you could look around to see the requirements for various states. In Louisiana, I am fairly certain that once you are a certified teacher, all one needs to do to add another certification is pass the Praxis exam for that content area.
I echo what JohnKnight said. The teaching profession seems to be becoming less attractive at an exponential rate. So do your best to find a good TEACHING gig. Without one, all the other stuff falls apart anyway.
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