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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 7, 2009 17:16:09 GMT -6
Its been two seasons now and while it might have been obvious to everyone heres a few things I have learned with the help of a point system:
1) the players who dont earn points are almost always "cancers" in some way shape or form. I am sure theres a high correlation.
2) players that dont earn points are often very selfish, likely to quit when they get disciplined or after a loss
3) players that dont earn points are the most critical of the coach and the program and will undermine the coach, they will be the very players that sap the coaching staff of their energy and patience.
4) players that dont earn points are most likely to demonstrate "uncoachable" like qualities in difficult situations
5) players who dont earn points are most likely to skip the preseason player meeting , then break policy/rules inseason forcing the coaching staff to have to discipline them- dont allow players to participate without sitting through the expectations and signing a participation contract.
6) players who dont earn points are more likely to get detentions, be ineligible and skip practice/workouts/film sessions
7) players who dont earn points often have the most difficult, least supportive, most critical and loud parents- they are the players you may try to save- the very players who in the end will try to get you fired.
8) players who dont earn points often dont improve from season to season and if you have enough who dont earn, youre likely to be in for a very long season
9) players who dont earn points will display a sense of entitlement if they are any kind of athlete, it seems to go hand in hand. they will have an equally weak ability to lead the underclassmen in any way othan bullying and intimidation. they simply know no other way.
10) players who dont earn points may feel that its "stupid" if they never had to earn points before.
On the other hand, you may have a few kids who completely lack athletic ability that make coaching a complete joy. They will stop at nothing to please, impress and earn.
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Post by rcole on Oct 7, 2009 17:33:25 GMT -6
What is your point system? Is it similar to the one in the Articles section?...Dedication Points, I think Knighter wrote it.
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Post by brophy on Oct 7, 2009 18:00:34 GMT -6
I certainly appreciate you providing feedback on this.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 7, 2009 18:16:59 GMT -6
I should also add that last years points winner is likely to be our team mvp this year, being coachable, dedicated to workouts and practices, his school work, community service etc have actually made him a very good football player...hes a sophomore.
similarly, our top point earner this off season (barely edging out last years winner) is now a two way starter (another soph) and easily the most improved player on our team.
Neither player would be considered an athlete at all before jumping into the program and doing what we have asked. a third soph is now our second best runningback, hes the top new comer to the program earning 300 points this off season (ran a bunch of steps carrying weights up and down the steps to get extra points after wts).
seems to me that HEART and DESIRE can infact be measured...the point system seems to show it. these things lead to players overachieving.
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 7, 2009 18:48:52 GMT -6
Thanks for the update I was actually wondering about it. We suspended two kids for a 1/2 this week for missing practice. If we had a point system, they certainly would be at the bottom
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 7, 2009 18:59:16 GMT -6
No doubt about it, lack of investment, no sacrifices made, no concept of team over self...those things show clearly with the absense of earnings.
Earners, those are the guys who should be team captains, get starting jobs, post season accolades etc.
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Post by coachorr on Oct 7, 2009 20:53:55 GMT -6
TDmaker,
You should consider writing an article about your point system, including the posted reflections here. We do not have a point system, but i can tell you who my low point earners would be and almost all of it is true.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 2:59:09 GMT -6
What is interesting to me is that it shows me who is WILLING more than who is ABLE.
Obviously then it shows me who WONT vs who CAN.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 3:14:17 GMT -6
Here is one negative experience with the point system. Last year for about a three month period, a junior to be (was not on the team the prior season) was leading in points, he was making all sorts of workouts and making progress etc etc...after three months he earned one of the dozen sweatshirts I ordered for the kids. Kid proudly accepts the sweatshirt then stops showing up for workouts and didnt come out for football......................wanted to join the renassance fair or something as a sword fighter and jouster. No kidding.
I recall one big bodied kid telling me all year, hot and cold, that he was going to play football. We , as a staff constantly talked about our plans , offensive and defensive , if this kid came out. he was not an earner, despite lots of discussions with us about that, wouldnt invest anything and in the end didnt show up in August. Mid sept he wants to come out and his parents may have been making waves with the AD about it. Kind of kid that knows "they got nobody better than me" so he sees no reason to earn anything. Again, the WONT part shows though. It obviously shows you who you can trust and who you can make plans around. I think you have to be careful not to alienate the non earners when you are at a small school because you quite honestly need them too (just to have enough to form a team) but you dont have to build your team around them for sure.
Kids like that do not like the point system because it makes them targets to ribbing and kidding from peers - "slacker" etc. We post the earnings every month and we have an overall leader board so its right there for everyone to see. We send home mailers and the parents also get to see what every kid is earning. Ill tell you this, I have not had a single parent complain to me about playing time or anything like that and i think its because of the point system. What can they say?
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 8, 2009 6:51:00 GMT -6
A negative i see is that we would have two starters that would have earned very few points, starting over kids that would have many points...great kids..good families...they stink
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Post by tim914790 on Oct 8, 2009 6:54:06 GMT -6
Guys I know there is a ton of point systems out there. Can you outline yours that you use? My only concerns are do you cut based on points or just dont play a kid? I know administration around here does not want team selection based on off season participation. HOw do you get rid of the non earner? In some cases I could see a kid who is a cancer just sticking around just to be an ass.
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Post by rcole on Oct 8, 2009 7:46:14 GMT -6
No chance of a reply to my question?
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Post by bulldogoption on Oct 8, 2009 8:57:10 GMT -6
I think you have to be careful not to alienate the non earners when you are at a small school because you quite honestly need them too (just to have enough to form a team) but you dont have to build your team around them for sure. I see this exact scenario......and I wish I had answers. I got our "core" of kids to buy in and lift, pass classes, stay out of trouble, HIT, etc.....but the rest of the kids removed themselves completely. Standards were too high Coach is right, you have to be careful not to alienate those kids, but how do you not?  In our situation, it caused our numbers to drop and that makes it more difficult to win week after week. I would have to lower the standards around here to increase the numbers. I'm not interested in doing that, so I can see the handwriting on the wall............... I couldn't break the cycle. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 9:51:07 GMT -6
Yes, we saw numbers "drop" (from 33 physicals to 19 at the end of last year but back up to 24 this year) but then they came up...we actually have 3 more kids now than we did last year at the end of the season. But the number of COMMITTED /DEDICATED kids is actually what you want to see grow.
I agree, I have been pushed to lower standards here too at times, ie a newspaper writer told me that the word is some kids dont play because "they dont like the coach" and yknow what? its not that they dont like "the coach" its that they DO NOT LIKE DISCIPLINE HARD WORK AND EXPECTATIONS!!!! so, thats why expressions like "football isnt for everyone" have come to be. the newspaper quy questioned why I make players "apologize" for quitting before they can return to the team?! Arent we teaching life lessons too?
We have gotten away from some things that are part of my vision(lifting during practice, bellies for missing practice, accepting kids out after the second scrimmage) and guess what? the quitters still quit. Losing reveals character, period. We are doing things my way, the right way and with great discipline and high expectations, even if it means we have 5-10 less kids involved. Id rather have 20 that want to do things the right way than 30 who are out of control.
The funny thing is this, there are about 5 kids who I had hoped would play, decent enough athletes to have helped us, they however dont commit to ANYTHING and usually struggle academically, discipline wise, team wise, etc.
I do what I can to build relationships with them, heck they still take my classes as electives so they obviously dont hate me, they just dont want to do what is required to win as team nor do they like the word "no". I get that. I also get that they have parents that dont make them follow through on anything. Theres no accountablity in some cases.
I used to beat myself up over the fact that I dont have 50 kids chomping at the bit to play football "for me" like I did when I was a ms coach...guess what? its EASIER for hs kids to stay home and play x box, hang with the girl friend or get drunk on friday nights then it is to commit to a team sport that requires study hall, weight lifting and long practices including saturday and holidays.
as far as "the core" goes, the first year it seemed that i had about 3-4 kids that really did what I asked, they were sophs and freshmen mostly. the second year about 4-5 more and it included a couple of current seniors ...that means the core is growing and Ill bet we get another 3-4 next year so we should have that dedicated core of 10-15 kids that you really need at a small school. The trick is though, to dispel the rumors/myths that circulate from the quitters who seek to destroy the whole thing. (Ie one quitter was telling other kids that he quit because I blamed players for losing which is nonsense because he threatened to quit last year and again in a scrimmage this year- quitters are quitters all the time ). Stuff like that is an attempt at sabbotage. I need only respond "you get out of it whatever you put in" - look at he pride points, the quitters are always bottom feeders.
This year we are taking a team trip to a college football game. We will also do a Madden tournament and pizza party, just HAVING FUN makes other kids want to be involved.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 9:59:14 GMT -6
I see that where we are now. We have a TON of migrant farm working families that over the summer move north in search of work and take the kids with them. We went into the summer with around 50 or so (sophs-seniors) and had around 30 that made our Iron man team which meant they made all their lifts etc. I think we ask them to make 80% of 32 days or something like that. I'm not the header so I don't have all the data in front of me!  Anyhow, we have some of those migrant kids who are great kids and play hard, however they are weak b/c they are not in the weight room. We have a SLB right now that is scrappy as all get out, will meet the iso like a freight train, but cannot bench press 185 lbs! I bet he can't squat much more. However, during the week the kid gives you his guts, and he is a go getter, he just has to move with the family in the summers. He's one of 20 or 25, what do you do in that situation? Duece |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 10:00:27 GMT -6
No chance of a reply to my question? sorry, no idea how I missed that. points for attendance to workouts, extra running after, practices attended, community service, academic awards...that sort of thing. basically yes, the same, in fact, I think knighters the one who got me started on that concept or at least helped me refine the concept some. I have "graded" practice and will go back to that as well. ie 5 points for great job, 4 for good , 3 average, 2 , poor, 1 you were there, 0 no attendance. etc. |
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Post by macwomac on Oct 8, 2009 10:01:59 GMT -6
In my experience at small schools you have to be very careful how you use the points and how they are earned.....at least in the beginning or you can quickly drive off talented players that aren't used to working. You can tighten the screws as the kids get into the system. Team competitions in conjunction with the point systems are great....it also makes the kids more accountable to reach other, rather than just to themselves. Easy things like having seniors draft teams. Each kid still earns their own points that are used for whatever, but the winning team (most points) also gets some incentive.....first pick at equipment, miss some sort of conditioning, special shirts, etc.
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mce86
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Post by mce86 on Oct 8, 2009 10:05:29 GMT -6
A negative i see is that we would have two starters that would have earned very few points, starting over kids that would have many points...great kids..good families...they stink U have to be willing to sacrifice those kids, or make ways for them to earn their points in season. It's extremely hard to make that sacrifice, but the big picture is, kids will do what it takes to play. If all it takes is to be better than the kid in front of you, then ist a given they will play. But, if it takes that they have to workout at a certain rate, or kids will get promoted above them, then thats what they will do, they will have to show up. You have to sacrifice for the future gains you will make. You also have to start it early on with younger kids, by the time you have varsity players, all your starters should be bought in. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 10:07:03 GMT -6
I see that where we are now. We have a TON of migrant farm working families that over the summer move north in search of work and take the kids with them. We went into the summer with around 50 or so (sophs-seniors) and had around 30 that made our Iron man team which meant they made all their lifts etc. I think we ask them to make 80% of 32 days or something like that. I'm not the header so I don't have all the data in front of me! Anyhow, we have some of those migrant kids who are great kids and play hard, however they are weak b/c they are not in the weight room. We have a SLB right now that is scrappy as all get out, will meet the iso like a freight train, but cannot bench press 185 lbs! I bet he can't squat much more. However, during the week the kid gives you his guts, and he is a go getter, he just has to move with the family in the summers. He's one of 20 or 25, what do you do in that situation? Duece Theres not much you can do, just find ways to reward the kids that are around. It doesnt have to be much more than a tee shirt or a write up in the football news or whatever. We have players compete for a few trophies, we have a pride point trophy (again, last years winner was a freshman, hes probably going to win a few trophies this year as defensive mvp and defensive HAMMER for top hitter) , we have an iron man trophy for top lifting results, we have offensive and defensive mvp and an academic all start trophy as well as senior leadership award and varsity letters. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 10:08:49 GMT -6
btw, something I started doing was taking kids out for pizza on fridays during the summer. seemed like that got them coming back to the gym. wed just eat pizza and fries and hangout at the pizza shop a bit after lifting and playing touch football. I found out some interesting stuff that way (ie found out about a group of older players who bullied and harassed my young kids in the locker room and tried to state a revolt over my attendance policies). Interesting stuff.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 10:13:09 GMT -6
A negative i see is that we would have two starters that would have earned very few points, starting over kids that would have many points...great kids..good families...they stink If you think you are in that situation, and you probably are, then tie in things like water duty and conditioning at the end of practice to the points. Ie the scrubs with the points have fewer updowns/hills/duties than the starters with no points. I told my kids that if they didnt earn then id not nominate them for all stars or senior bowl etc. of course, it doesnt do any good if they were skipping that meeting lol playing time is about being an athlete/member of the team, afterall, you probably have to win/compete to keep your job....but perhaps you can be creative in ways to provide incentive to earn points. I think convincing the kids that you are trying to make them better athletes and better people really is the goal. its funny though, but the athletes with no points will "cancer out" in many cases. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 10:16:53 GMT -6
Guys I know there is a ton of point systems out there. Can you outline yours that you use? My only concerns are do you cut based on points or just dont play a kid? I know administration around here does not want team selection based on off season participation. HOw do you get rid of the non earner? In some cases I could see a kid who is a cancer just sticking around just to be an {censored}. I dont think you cut them, thats not the point. I think we need them around and try to help them see the light. If you are giving playing time to the earners, giving captain status to the earners, privilege rank, special treatment etc...the lightbulb will go on...or they quit. That happens. (particularly if they are used to special treatment because of their talent). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 10:58:30 GMT -6
In my experience at small schools you have to be very careful how you use the points and how they are earned.....at least in the beginning or you can quickly drive off talented players that aren't used to working. You can tighten the screws as the kids get into the system. Team competitions in conjunction with the point systems are great....it also makes the kids more accountable to reach other, rather than just to themselves. Easy things like having seniors draft teams. Each kid still earns their own points that are used for whatever, but the winning team (most points) also gets some incentive.....first pick at equipment, miss some sort of conditioning, special shirts, etc. This is what we did. We had teams and they competed all summer against each other. The sad thing was I made them draft everybody who was listed on our roster in the spring (we have spring football) and several of those guys never turned up, so some teams had to foreit. I think I will announce our intentions and rewards earlier next year as we just threw it together right at the end of spring practice. It did get a lot of kids involved in the weight room though. Duece |
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 8, 2009 11:15:39 GMT -6
A negative i see is that we would have two starters that would have earned very few points, starting over kids that would have many points...great kids..good families...they stink If you think you are in that situation, and you probably are, then tie in things like water duty and conditioning at the end of practice to the points. Ie the scrubs with the points have fewer updowns/hills/duties than the starters with no points. I told my kids that if they didnt earn then id not nominate them for all stars or senior bowl etc. of course, it doesnt do any good if they were skipping that meeting lol playing time is about being an athlete/member of the team, afterall, you probably have to win/compete to keep your job....but perhaps you can be creative in ways to provide incentive to earn points. I think convincing the kids that you are trying to make them better athletes and better people really is the goal. its funny though, but the athletes with no points will "cancer out" in many cases. TD like the idea of lightened conditioning for the points earners...after all they Earned those points by conditioning...Not to keen on water duty..seems punitive and petty IMO |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 11:19:04 GMT -6
I dunno, someone has to do the water duty, usually it falls on rookies and freshmen but if a rook or frosh has more points....then they have earned a pass in my opinion. reward, not punish...
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Post by coachcb on Oct 8, 2009 12:26:24 GMT -6
I still think that the point system needs to be tied into lettering in some form, especially at the underclassmen level. If a kid earns X amount of points, but doesn't play a down of varsity, give him a letter; he's helping the program more by being committed than by playing on Friday night. You really have to letter the kids that see varsity playing time, regardless off the point system, but if a freshman busts his butt during the offseason, then give him a letter. Hey, maybe you try to take it a step further; varsity playing time is only one consideration for lettering. If they're not working in the off season, whether it's playing other sports or lifting, then don't give them a letter. I doubt it'll last long, but it's a very good incentive and makes a big statement.
I know that letters are supposed to be about 'playing varsity', but I think that it needs to go deeper than that. If you're working hard and helping to improve the program and the school's athletics in general, then you should get a letter. If you're not, then why should you receive recognition??
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Post by mariner42 on Oct 8, 2009 13:11:54 GMT -6
Regarding migrant families, sometimes the best you can ask for is the 'prison' workouts where they have to get creative to get their exercise in. If they're motivated, they'll be fit, maybe not optimally, but they'll be fit.
I really like the point system idea, most of our varsity squad would've been outworked by the sophomores this past offseason, and outworked badly. I'd love to implement it someday, hopefully as soon as this offseason.
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Post by macwomac on Oct 8, 2009 13:51:15 GMT -6
This is what we did. We had teams and they competed all summer against each other. The sad thing was I made them draft everybody who was listed on our roster in the spring (we have spring football) and several of those guys never turned up, so some teams had to foreit. I think I will announce our intentions and rewards earlier next year as we just threw it together right at the end of spring practice. It did get a lot of kids involved in the weight room though. Duece We didn't get to fully implement our new system this off-season as the HC got the axe rather unexpectedly, so I'm not sure how much better the kids would have liked it, but they were excited for some of the "other" stuff we were going to do. "Other" stuff is that we were scheduling some fun, team-building nights into the competition too, video game tourney, wiffle-ball tourney, bowling night, etc. They could get team points from it for winning and individual points for attendance. The teams were to be around 5-8 kids each. We set up the initial teams to help balance them, then let the leaders do some trades to help with rides or kids that work really well together. Winning team was to get a special t-shirt, winning senior a traveling trophy (they wanted a WWF style belt), and they got to get equipment 1st. Maybe there is something there you could use to modify yours?? |
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Post by coachcb on Oct 8, 2009 14:35:49 GMT -6
and this is why I have a "no lift, no play" policy. Those kids who won't lift consistently just cause problems and will cost you when the chips are down. Even if they are a great athlete, it doesn't matter, their lack of discipline, their parents, their attitude, the hassles you have to deal with...just make them NOT worth it to play them and have to deal with it. I think that this is the best policy you can have, assuming it flies with the fellas you coach with and the administration. If it were up to me, I'd use a point system; lifting is worth one point a day, playing an off season sport is worth one point day. You get X percentage of points during the school year and X percentage during the summer, then you'll see playing time. If not, you're still on the team (can't do cuts), but you won't play. If you don't have an athletic period, then I just don't see any other way to develop that effort over ability mentality with the kids. There's just no way to hold the kids accountable, unless you can pencil them into an athletic period during the off season. AND, even then, you need to keep track of those guys that show up for summer workouts; it's not good enough to lift in a class from January til June and then sit on your butt for 2 months. Our program is successful because we emphasize effort over ability at all costs. Had a soph safety being lazy this week (he thinks he's a 'gamer'); he got no reps during most of our periods. If you're going to be a sloth, then you're going to sit out; I'm not giving you reps when there's kids that want to get better. He's the best safety we have, bar none, but I don't care. If it happens again anytime soon, I may give him two options; play hard or go home for the day. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 8, 2009 17:47:33 GMT -6
Just had a low point earner (senior) quit - second time he quit. This is my point, he invested NOTHING and can quit on his team and coaches and community at the drop of a hat. Funny thing, wed just concluded a big meeting on expectations and discipline down the stretch because we were feeling that things were getting too loosy goosy lately. I guess he didnt want any part of what I was preeching.
Too much drama, DC I wish I could make it as simple as that. Id have 6 kids on the team but itd be a start lol.
I remember back in June telling my assistants that I was worried, I really thought we might only have 12 kids come out based purely on points.
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Anyhow, we have some of those migrant kids who are great kids and play hard, however they are weak b/c they are not in the weight room. We have a SLB right now that is scrappy as all get out, will meet the iso like a freight train, but cannot bench press 185 lbs! I bet he can't squat much more. However, during the week the kid gives you his guts, and he is a go getter, he just has to move with the family in the summers. He's one of 20 or 25, what do you do in that situation?
