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Post by dubber on Sept 9, 2009 9:15:40 GMT -6
Watched some Air Raid videos on my day off.......
An idea on there hit and stuck with me "if they do it perfectly once, move on....."
While I understand this is somewhat hyperbolic in nature (I am sure in camp that is not completely the case, but perhaps later on in season it is), it brings up the need to discuss quality versus quantity reps.
The answer that gets thrown out alot (on this board), is that if a player isn't getting it, and it has to be done, and no one else can do it, then you just have to keep repping it.
Is it the raw number of repetitions that equal success, or the ability to teach that rep, to conceptualize it in his mind, so the player "gets it"? (and yes, that is a loaded question)
SO,
How do we make the repetition process more efficent? Have are some current good and bad practices [no pun] in this area?
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Sept 9, 2009 9:30:01 GMT -6
It's definitely the ability to teach that rep. # of reps is pointless if there is no differentiation between good and bad reps. Bottom line is that they need to know how to perform those skills, and it's our job to figure out how to teach it and drill it effectively.
Right now my varsity OL is good- real good...we've been working hard on these guys for 3 yrs and they get it.
My Jv guys are a different story- many 1st time footballers, not real big nor tough. They are having a real hard time (for whatever reason) at getting the pull step right. Some are losing ground, some gaining, some are pausing, some are pivoting...everything but the correct way.
I've been teaching and drilling the pull step the same way for 8 yrs, and this is the first time a kid hasn't gotten it. I am hard headed and have been driving these kids the same direction until now- I'm not getting the job done SO I'm putting my old ways on the backburner and finding a way to teach these kids how to pull.
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Post by brophy on Sept 9, 2009 9:35:31 GMT -6
Part of that Air Raid logic that goes along with that phrase, is that if a rep ISN'T correct, correct it immediately, don't let kids continue to do bad technique and getting good at being bad
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Post by coachorr on Sept 9, 2009 9:53:51 GMT -6
We have one player on the oline, great kid great athlete, but has some sort of learning disability. What has essentially happened is one player has limited the entire offense. What do I do? And the ability drops off the table like a Nolan Ryan curve ball when you get to the sixth man.
Whitemike, one thing I did to help teach pulling was using hoops, assuming you are not speaking of trapping. For trapping, you might try pulling the opposite foot and try stepping on the next players foot (pulling the backside foot across the body and to the heal of the next player inside) instead of opening the hip up by throwing the elbow. The trap angle happens naturally. It is an old Joe Paterno technique.
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Post by dubber on Sept 9, 2009 10:06:15 GMT -6
So we get it.
But HOW do we accomplish this? What is essential/non-essential in this process?
I spent 15 minutes of defensive indy yesterday doing nothing but getting hands on the TE, riding him down (hopefully ruining his angle to the LB) and then squeezing a kick out block.
Part of that is we will have two new DE's starting this week. We lost a starter a week ago to injury, another starter got swooped up to play LBer, and my only other guy with starting experience missed Labor Day practice-----so, I got all new cats playing Friday versus a team that ran sweep maybe 3 times in 2 games, and power maybe 55 times.
But, I am stuck.
My thinking is to get them good at one thing, because if we don't take on the down block properly, we WILL LOSE.
I am hoping the vast amount of reps (we probably got each DE 12 looks at TE block down, FB kickout) will trigger muscle memory come Friday.
After reading the "kids good Monday-Thursday but blow it on Friday nights" threads, I am wondering if this mad dash to teach these guys how to play Power is the BEST way........in the end, it may just be futile anyways.....
I mean, on Monday we walked through how a Power play is constructed, and how it is different from Iso, etc.
The emphasized the importance of getting hands on TE, because the more perpendicular (in relation to the LOS) we make his angle to the LBer, the better chance we have of the LBer filling the power hole.
And that additionally, the direction of the down block leads us straight to kick-out block.
So I think they can regurgitate that to me, but is it going to make a difference come game time?
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Post by brophy on Sept 9, 2009 10:25:02 GMT -6
how does it look in GROUP time, dubber?
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Post by airraid77 on Sept 9, 2009 10:45:42 GMT -6
I spent the last week reading the bill walsh articles on training a qb. I am a newbie so I am not trying to step on toes. But Walsh made it a point that all these fundamentals.....basic footwork, blocking schemes, one man, two man and even three man blocks for the oline, the difference between Iso an power and zone for d-line, angles of fill and pursuits, fits, and whatever you want to throw in their can be taught in the winter, spring and summer months before fall practice starts.
Question for all the coaches on here? Why is and does everybody wait until september to try to figure this stuff out?
Where I am at, I spent all summer 2-3 hours a day watching do whatever they want in the weight room, and showing whenever they want. NO ACCOUNTABILITY at all. we have the same problem I am sort of venting about.
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Post by dubber on Sept 9, 2009 10:47:22 GMT -6
how does it look in GROUP time, dubber? They are doing exactly what I want them to do....... Hands on, squeeze it. We had a JV game yesterday, so we didn't have enough players to run a scout O......today is our last real workday, and all I can do (unless someone gives me a brilliant idea before 3:00 PM) is reinforce hands and squeeze, and monitor it again in GROUP/TEAM. I guess my thinking is we are SUPER inexperienced at DE (at everywhere really), and we only have time to get good at one thing (if that). I need technique sound guys, so we are going to focus on only one thing: jacking up the TE, and taking on the FB. And yet, I bet when it's not Monday afternoon (but Friday night), and it's not a 140 lbs TE (but the 220 kid they'll face), and the FB is not the 155 lbs JV kid (but the 210 stud), that our technique goes out the window, and we will do what Brophy adequately described as "ghetto ball" (just play it playa') I'd really like to avoid that (and the 300+ rushing yards allowed that go with that)....... So is there anyway to do it better? |
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Post by airraid77 on Sept 9, 2009 10:54:02 GMT -6
do you have a free period during the day where you can grab the kids?
If tomorrow is like we are? and your kids are in jerseys and shorts and it just special teams....grab your kids even if its one at a time and get your te and work it.
I have a question for you, dubs? If you ride the te down like that, are you not open to getting logged? especially g scheme logs?
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Post by dubber on Sept 9, 2009 11:08:27 GMT -6
do you have a free period during the day where you can grab the kids? If tomorrow is like we are? and your kids are in jerseys and shorts and it just special teams....grab your kids even if its one at a time and get your te and work it. I have a question for you, dubs? If you ride the te down like that, are you not open to getting logged? especially g scheme logs? Hell yeah we are. This kind of leads me to my point anyways: I don't have time to teach defeating the log block AND defeating the kickout block. This team, so far, has not made a living on the log block, but if they had a nickel for everytime they ran power..... So, I ignore the coaching point about taking on the kick-out block AND keeping your outside arm free for bounce....... Listen, I appreciate the help fellas, and maybe through my personal example we can ultimately get to what I wanted to get to when I started this thread, which is: How does one train/get/teach quality reps from their players? |
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 9, 2009 11:09:05 GMT -6
-if you riding the TE down, I assume that you will wrong arm the kick out and spill it to the LB?
OR
are you expecting your DE to be the contain?
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Post by dubber on Sept 9, 2009 11:15:44 GMT -6
-if you riding the TE down, I assume that you will wrong arm the kick out and spill it to the LB? OR are you expecting your DE to be the contain? Again, I would love to wrong arm and spill. But, I DO NOT feel like I can teach that technique. Our goal is still to spill it, however. Basically, we get a down block, we squeeze it and take on the FB with our inside shoulder and run our feet to close the hole. Is it how I want it down in a perfect world? No. But when you are starting a former DT at one DE, and a former ILB at the other, and you only have a week, you focus on what is important.......... I decided on: 1. Not letting the TE seal off our ILB's from the power hole. 2. Closing the power hole as tightly as we can. |
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Post by airraid77 on Sept 9, 2009 11:16:03 GMT -6
do you have a free period during the day where you can grab the kids? If tomorrow is like we are? and your kids are in jerseys and shorts and it just special teams....grab your kids even if its one at a time and get your te and work it. I have a question for you, dubs? If you ride the te down like that, are you not open to getting logged? especially g scheme logs? the answer Hell yeah we are. This kind of leads me to my point anyways: I don't have time to teach defeating the log block AND defeating the kickout block. This team, so far, has not made a living on the log block, but if they had a nickel for everytime they ran power..... So, I ignore the coaching point about taking on the kick-out block AND keeping your outside arm free for bounce....... Listen, I appreciate the help fellas, and maybe through my personal example we can ultimately get to what I wanted to get to when I started this thread, which is: How does one train/get/teach quality reps from their players? The answer to your question is not to wait til august. or the first day of fall practice. The other answer is get your kids to come befor school? Or do you have a period in practice where your D-line is idle? You dont need to be in practice to teach this. head placement, hands, and hips. Ironically thats really all you need to teach it. |
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Post by dubber on Sept 9, 2009 11:35:03 GMT -6
the answer Hell yeah we are. This kind of leads me to my point anyways: I don't have time to teach defeating the log block AND defeating the kickout block. This team, so far, has not made a living on the log block, but if they had a nickel for everytime they ran power..... So, I ignore the coaching point about taking on the kick-out block AND keeping your outside arm free for bounce....... Listen, I appreciate the help fellas, and maybe through my personal example we can ultimately get to what I wanted to get to when I started this thread, which is: How does one train/get/teach quality reps from their players? The answer to your question is not to wait til august. or the first day of fall practice. Why didn't I think of that? Maybe I should have been coaching this former DT and ILB to be DE's along..... Me: "Hey coach" LB coach: "Yeah" Me: "Do you think I could take Billy and work him at DE this indy period" LB coach: "Uh, he's a LBer" Me: "I know coach, but I got a feeling that our starter will dislocate his knee, you'll steal the other starter to fill a void at LBer, this other guy will miss Labor Day practice and then we will need Billy to play DE in week 4." LB coach: "I hadn't thought about that" Me: "Well, I really can't take credit for it, you see someone on the X's and O's of football suggested that if a player is unexpectedly moved to another position in the future, we should start repping him year round at that position." Coach Air, I'm guessing that your solution is simply to "get more reps"................I'm asking how to make those reps a higher quality. |
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Post by airraid77 on Sept 9, 2009 12:10:56 GMT -6
Sort of. You get more reps but you get more time to stop and correct at a pace that is suitable to you. You can build on The very basics and get the reps you are looking for. Quality reps dont happen without time. or hundreds of reps. That is why I asked why wait till august to teach these things. its to late. You have to much to teach to be picky about technique. either find time to get the quantity which allows to get what EXACTLY what you want . OR stream line it.
Can I ask why you dont just teach jam, squeeze keep out arm free? or inside arm free if your wrong arming?
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mce86
Junior Member
Posts: 281
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Post by mce86 on Sept 9, 2009 12:26:48 GMT -6
My thought on this, is first the fundamentals have to be there, so there has to be plenty of reps in individual periods that have been drilled so that the execution becomes second nature. Then once in a team concept, the skills should be there.
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Post by dubber on Sept 9, 2009 12:28:40 GMT -6
Sort of. You get more reps but you get more time to stop and correct at a pace that is suitable to you. You can build on The very basics and get the reps you are looking for. Quality reps dont happen without time. or hundreds of reps. That is why I asked why wait till august to teach these things. its to late. You have to much to teach to be picky about technique. either find time to get the quantity which allows to get what EXACTLY what you want . OR stream line it. Can I ask why you dont just teach jam, squeeze keep out arm free? or inside arm free if your wrong arming? Have you read about my situation? |
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Post by airraid77 on Sept 9, 2009 12:47:50 GMT -6
dubs,
I read your situation. the short term answer is get your techniques down to one. Your teaching teaching des who I assume havent done it before. make their assignment easy. teach them to fight pressure with whatever hand free.if they can run power 55 times, I am pretty sure they can do it a couple of different ways. If they to fight pressure, they can be sound.
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Post by coach4life on Sept 9, 2009 13:05:04 GMT -6
More of a coaching technique than a playing technique but I've found it to be useful. We all know there are bad reps, good reps, and reps that are as close as you can get to perfect. When I get one of those good as it gets reps I'll say "Perfect rep! Put that one in your head as a reference point." and after that "Great (or perfect) rep, remember that!". At the end of practice from time to time: "Fellas, don't forget those great reps today." Come game time you can then hopefully trigger that memory with "You know what to do, just remember how those great reps felt and play fast."
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Post by mariner42 on Sept 9, 2009 14:35:47 GMT -6
Film! Show them game film of it being done properly, game film of it being done improperly, film them in practice, show them practice film. Incorporates multiple learning styles, allows for visual 'priming' of the unconscious (inner game of tennis ftw) so they just need to recreate what they've seen before, etc.
Show film before teaching to help minimize what needs to be taught/corrected when actually practicing.
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Post by dubber on Sept 10, 2009 8:15:24 GMT -6
Again, not the point of this thread, but here is an update:
Yesterday, my starting DE (use to be DT) skips practice.
Sooooooo,
my most experience DE started playing there Monday.
We have a starting OG that will probably come in and relieve my new starter, but this kid is FAR from being in iron man condition.
Holy crap.......we may just try to outscore em'
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Post by jpdaley25 on Sept 11, 2009 5:24:49 GMT -6
First teach the fundamental skill,
then teach the application of that skill in all conceivable situations,
then teach it to be performed with intensity,
and then teach it to be performed under pressure.
I don't believe all of that can be achieved with just one rep that looks good.
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 11, 2009 8:42:14 GMT -6
Dub, let us know how it plays out. I feel for you, been there before.
Last suggestion:
Get in your kids mind and build him up as much as you can, be positive if things don't work out from the get go. And be sure to love on him when things go well.
-Let him know that his is 'your' kid.
-You picked him b/c you now he can do the job.
-You trust him to make it happen.
-It OK to be down on yourself if he makes a mistake, but this is how we fix it.
-Let him know how much you appreciate him for the sacrifice his making for the team, no matter the outcome.
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Post by dubber on Sept 13, 2009 21:45:37 GMT -6
Dub, let us know how it plays out. I feel for you, been there before. Last suggestion: Get in your kids mind and build him up as much as you can, be positive if things don't work out from the get go. And be sure to love on him when things go well. -Let him know that his is 'your' kid. -You picked him b/c you now he can do the job. -You trust him to make it happen. -It OK to be down on yourself if he makes a mistake, but this is how we fix it. -Let him know how much you appreciate him for the sacrifice his making for the team, no matter the outcome. We got killed, but I believe it was the minus 5 in the turnover department....... The DE's actually played it okay. I suppose that 40 minutes of indy that week of nothing but hands on the TE and taking on the kickout block paid off. I offered that up as an example, and appreciate the advice, but I'd really like to get back to the question: How do you get quality reps? Does something like keeping the same weekly schedule breed familiarity and better repetitions? (ie, on Tuesdays we do team screen, on Wednesday we do Inside Run....etc....) |
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Post by coachks on Sept 13, 2009 22:44:42 GMT -6
To get quality reps I think a few things need to happen.
1) Most important is the scout teams need to have it together. If the scout team is unorganized, slow tempo or filled with "duds' then you can't get quality reps.
2) Constant feedback. You can't just line up for team and evaluate. This also includes giving that scout offense "feedback" if they're dragging ass.
3) Indy/teaching should blend with team early on. If you drill squeeze during indy's and work on taking on the kickout blocks, then the early portion of team needs to use those skills. If you have a 30 minute indy and you spend, say, the middle 10 on the power play and the the last 10 on, for example, pass rush then you go to team and you don't see power in the first reps you're talking about a 15-20 minute gap between teaching it and seeing it live.
Chances are they're going to have pass rushing moves rattling around their head instead of the power.
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 14, 2009 7:25:23 GMT -6
-go 1s vs. 1s as much as you can in your group work
-spend less time on team and more in indy/group
-team time should only be for game type situation (using chains, 2 pt plays, goal line/short yardage, etc...) and it should be get in/get out. OR it should be vs. scout teams to show what your opponent does.
-teach the same thing in as many different ways/forms as you can
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