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Post by coachinghopeful on Sept 3, 2009 22:41:40 GMT -6
OK, I know this goes on in lots of places and is even common practice in some great programs, but until tonight I'd never met a kid who was actually doing this.
Apparently, the kid begged his mom to let him repeat the 8th grade despite good grades just so he could have an extra year to grow before high school. His divorced dad fought it hard, but finally dad gave up and allowed it to happen. Boy and mom were grinning from ear to ear as they were telling me how much it was going to help him be a stud once he gets to HS in another year.
The kid lives in a town and goes to a school with a VERY strong small-school football tradition that's basically football crazy, won a bunch of VA state titles, and sent a few players to Div 1a and even the NFL over the years. It's not a money issue, as his parents both have respectable middle class incomes (mom's an RN, stepdad runs a water treatment plant). I'm sure that the community's rabid support for HS football factored in his decision in a big way. Apparently, a lot of the 8th grade boys have been doing this or really pushed their parents to let them do it lately, which tells me there's probably a coach somewhere in the program behind it all.
Personally, I was really uneasy with it as I was talking to them. Especially since I'm told the kid's not that good, didn't win the genetic lottery (5'5"ish FB/LB type with mediocre speed) and has a history of injury problems. Besides... what if he gets to HS and never gets to start? What if no scholarships come? The kid will have basically just wasted a year of his life.
Also, isn't it cheating to exploit a gray area in the rules to stock a team with 18 and 19 year olds to play opposing teams made up of 16 and 17 year olds. AFAIK, most states have rules that kids only get 4 years of HS eligibility to stop this practice from occuring in grades 9-12.
So coaches... what the hell do you think of this? Do you or would you encourage kids to do this for the sake of strengthening your program?
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 3, 2009 22:52:36 GMT -6
This was a VERY VERY common occurrence in Louisiana until recently. State/National powers West Monroe, Evangel Christian, John Curtis Christian all did this with such regularity that they reportedly all had a grade level named 8+. Since the practice was officially outlawed on the books a few years ago, and made more difficult to do (but their are still some loopholes), the players have cycled out and only Curtis has won a state title.
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Post by coachbdud on Sept 4, 2009 0:05:39 GMT -6
I will basically do it with my sons... I wont hold them back that late, kind of embarassing to be in 8th grade twice IMO... but i wont start them in kindergarten until they are 6. Especially here where i live, you cant play varsity until you turn 15... no exceptions. Our best QB had to play JV for 6 games last year because he was young for his grade level... i dont want anything like that happening to my sons... My sons will start HS at age 15.
Our HC was held back in 8th grade by his father and it worked out good for him. Senior year he was athlete of the year in the area
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Post by coachinghopeful on Sept 4, 2009 0:35:05 GMT -6
But what you're doing is a little different, bdud. It's not tacking on an extra year of school just for sports, plus I can see a lot of advantages to that in terms of pumping up the kid's confidence through his whole life. I really like that idea, and not just because of how it pertains to HS football. Even if the kid gets to HS and decides football's not for him for whatever reason he's still on pace to move right through the school system and graduate.
Another thing I thought of with this kid... while he's all motivated and football obsessed at 14, do we know he will still be that way when he's 16 or 17? What if he gets sick of riding the pine, which he'll surely be doing for AT LEAST 2 years at this school, and quits? That extra year is down the drain. Also, as another parent pointed out when we were talking tonight, some of those kids will fail a grade after they've been held back (one she knew actually failed 8th grade the year he was repeating), and that makes them too old to play their Sr. year. Then you might get issues with the kid turning 18 a little too soon for the HS girls he'll be chasing and getting into trouble because of it... Just seems like a pandora's box to me.
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Post by coachbdud on Sept 4, 2009 1:42:57 GMT -6
But what you're doing is a little different, bdud. It's not tacking on an extra year of school just for sports, plus I can see a lot of advantages to that in terms of pumping up the kid's confidence through his whole life. I really like that idea, and not just because of how it pertains to HS football. Even if the kid gets to HS and decides football's not for him for whatever reason he's still on pace to move right through the school system and graduate. Another thing I thought of with this kid... while he's all motivated and football obsessed at 14, do we know he will still be that way when he's 16 or 17? What if he gets sick of riding the pine, which he'll surely be doing for AT LEAST 2 years at this school, and quits? That extra year is down the drain. Also, as another parent pointed out when we were talking tonight, some of those kids will fail a grade after they've been held back (one she knew actually failed 8th grade the year he was repeating), and that makes them too old to play their Sr. year. Then you might get issues with the kid turning 18 a little too soon for the HS girls he'll be chasing and getting into trouble because of it... Just seems like a pandora's box to me. My son wont be repeating any grades cuz he will understand he fails anything and its his butt... |
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Post by olinecoach61 on Sept 4, 2009 7:27:24 GMT -6
I saw this happen while I waw playing in high school. The kid ended up getting a full to Stanford so I guess it worked out.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Sept 4, 2009 8:33:34 GMT -6
But what you're doing is a little different, bdud. It's not tacking on an extra year of school just for sports, plus I can see a lot of advantages to that in terms of pumping up the kid's confidence through his whole life. I really like that idea, and not just because of how it pertains to HS football. Even if the kid gets to HS and decides football's not for him for whatever reason he's still on pace to move right through the school system and graduate. Another thing I thought of with this kid... while he's all motivated and football obsessed at 14, do we know he will still be that way when he's 16 or 17? What if he gets sick of riding the pine, which he'll surely be doing for AT LEAST 2 years at this school, and quits? That extra year is down the drain. Also, as another parent pointed out when we were talking tonight, some of those kids will fail a grade after they've been held back (one she knew actually failed 8th grade the year he was repeating), and that makes them too old to play their Sr. year. Then you might get issues with the kid turning 18 a little too soon for the HS girls he'll be chasing and getting into trouble because of it... Just seems like a pandora's box to me. My son wont be repeating any grades cuz he will understand he fails anything and its his butt... I didn't mean your kid would fail. I was just looking at what could go wrong hypothetically. A couple of the other kids who've done this at the same school actually failed 8th grade the second time through or got to HS and flunked a year there. Screwed the whole thing up. |
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Post by rcole on Sept 4, 2009 8:56:23 GMT -6
This has been common practice in a lot of places. One of the legends here in SC who played for like 9 state titles in 10 years and won like 8 of them used to do this systematically. He would sit down parents and talk them into it.
It happens at a lot of schools by accident. We had a school that was dominate in the 90's that actually put out some NFL talent for several years. More than half of their team had failed a grade at one time or another. In either case your seniors are 19 years old, of course they are different players than they were when they were 17 or 18.
I do agree that I would not accomplish this by holding them back in 8th grade. I will fight to start them later if their birthdays will put them finishing at age 17.
I graduated when I was 17. I had to beat out 2 nineteen year olds to win a region title in track. I have two children now and it is important to me that they NOT be younger than average for their grade level. It impacts confidence, personality, social skills, and athletics. I was a radically different person by the time I was 18 and a half than I was at 17...and a much different athlete as well.
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JMC
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by JMC on Sept 4, 2009 9:03:30 GMT -6
Is the high school in VA Gate city??
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Post by morris on Sept 4, 2009 9:24:32 GMT -6
I am all for what dbud is talking about. I honestly do not have an issue with people starting their child late so they are older. It has some issues but that is for the parents to deal with (age of the boy with HS girls).
Now holding the kid back in MS for sports ticks me off. We have a number of programs/areas in KY where it is just a cultural norm to do so. What happens is they kick the crap out of most other MS and do well as freshman but gain much less of an edge on the varsity level. I honestly feel like it is cheating playing MS ball with redshirt 8th graders. As long as they can they meet age though there is no real way to stop it.
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Post by coachtr on Sept 4, 2009 9:26:26 GMT -6
In Texas the kid would be declared athletically ineligble his senior year. Most holding back in Texas occurs early in elementary school. I personally plan on holding any children I am blessed with out of kindergarten until they are 6
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Post by coachdawhip on Sept 4, 2009 9:41:28 GMT -6
In GA if a child turns 19 before May 1st he is not elgible his senior year.
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Post by bulldogoption on Sept 4, 2009 10:14:27 GMT -6
I think parents can do whatever they want to with their kids.
My mother was a kindergarten teacher for MANY years. The BIGGEST thing she impressed upon me is that the older kids are more likely to see success later on in their school years. Boys especially........we see it all the time as coaches, right?
I have the foresight to start my kids (I have three little boys) so they will be turning 6 in kindergarten. Its not just about sports though. Its about maturity and handling the educational material.
From my experience as an educator, the older kids in each class are a bit more mature, sure of themselves, and athletic.
That is how many kids, boys especially, find their niche in school. If I can help my kid have a better chance of success by being AS OLD as the majority of kids, then that helps his confidence.
All of my reasons really apply to what this parent did. If the parent thinks they need another year of 8th grade so be it.
Find me the experts/doctors who think it doesn't matter and I'll find a pencil necked sports hater.
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Post by k on Sept 4, 2009 10:16:14 GMT -6
I have a late birthday and skipped a grade in elementary school which essentially put me two years behind my classmates.I was 16 as a senior when my friends were 18 or 19... I didn't have a problem with it other than me thinking it allowed me to waste a year before college and no one talking me out of it.
I can't imagine holding my kids back in 8th grade or even in elementary school for athletic purposes... I see the parents who support that as essentially trading a year of their kids lives for the chance of a scholarship... Insane IMO.
When I was in high school we had a kid transfer out of our public school into a private school and go from being a Junior to a Soph so that he could get another year of hockey in (hopes to be drafted or what not). What a waste of a year...
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Post by davecisar on Sept 4, 2009 10:16:21 GMT -6
I was 16 years old as a HS Senior- turned 17 that October-
Played vs lots of 18-19 year old kids- Started season in largest class at 155- ended season at 136-
They almost got me to quit as a 105 lb freshman.
Next year out of school was 183 in the Fall for first semester in DII. My 'growth spurt" was at age 17.
Had mom and dad done the right thing and started me when they should have rather than early, HS would have been much smoother and my last year of football would have been significantly better.
Our youth league head did a study that showed a HUGE correlation between average age of teams and wins/ the oldest teams always finished in the top 3, the youngest teams always i the bottom 3, at every level.
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Post by silkyice on Sept 4, 2009 10:17:29 GMT -6
In GA if a child turns 19 before May 1st he is not elgible his senior year. So a kid that would be 18 his whole football season, but turns 19 on April 30 is ineligible? Are you sure? Or is that turns 19 before May 1 in his junior year? |
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Post by gacoach on Sept 4, 2009 11:20:53 GMT -6
Speaking of hockey, I know that there has been a study done of junior league champions who's teams had most players born in January. It basically said that because of the cut off date, December, these players were all more mature, hence, more physically mature.
I have 3 sons and my oldest will turn 14 this November and he is in the 8th grade. My two younger ones turned 6 during Kindergarten in January and April respectively. My oldest is, and I am trying to be objective, considered one of the better players on his MS team and I KNOW it's because he's "older"....and I'd like to think that genetics and me being a HS coach has helped.
Jury is still out on the other 2 sons.
I would suggest not starting your child in school until they turn 6, or will turn 6 during the year.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Sept 4, 2009 11:34:17 GMT -6
The problem with this is that it can possibly screw a kid over who didn't follow some sort of loophole. So there is a 17 year old kid who has been busting his butt his entire life to compete his senior year, but there is a 19 year old who starts over him. It's just not fair IMHO. There are huge maturity and physical development issues here.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Sept 4, 2009 13:49:39 GMT -6
Is the high school in VA Gate city?? What makes you think that? I don't want to name names. |
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Post by pantherpride91 on Sept 4, 2009 13:55:19 GMT -6
We had that happen with three "stud" basketball players 4 years ago. The parents wanted them to be part of a "winning class" and held them back in 8th grade. Fast forward to today and one has transferred (to a school that went 2-18 last year because he was not getting enough attention), one has dropped out, and the other is a decent player than is getting some small school looks. Basically, that move has ruined two grades in sports as there was contention from the get go.
I think parents are asking for some serious trouble when they hold their kids back due to sports. Holding kids until they are 6 to start school is totally different than holding a 14 year old back because you want him to athletically mature some more. My wife teaches kindergarten and actually wishes all her students were 6 before they started.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Sept 4, 2009 14:03:26 GMT -6
So what do you think of doing it in this kid's case, where he's crazy for football and already working out hard, but really hasn't shown much talent or even athletic ability to speak of? I'm sure he can build himself up to a solid HS player in time but some coach and parents are telling him this will punch his ticket for the NFL. I'm also pretty sure the coaches are approaching 8th graders about this BEFORE talking to their parents.
Personally I didn't turn 18 until a week before I graduated, or 17 until 2 mo before my senior season. I was lucky to always be big for my age, which allowed me to compete when I wasn't nearly as strong or as fast as the older kids on the field. I kinda got a rep as the class weakling because of it and I never did shake it. Looking back, I wish my parents had waited until I was 6 to start me in school now, but I'm glad I wasn't "redshirted" in MS.
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Post by coachdawhip on Sept 4, 2009 21:46:26 GMT -6
In GA if a child turns 19 before May 1st he is not elgible his senior year. So a kid that would be 18 his whole football season, but turns 19 on April 30 is ineligible? Are you sure? Or is that turns 19 before May 1 in his junior year? You are correct, I stated that wrong. He must be not be 19 going into his senior year. |
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Post by coachjmcs on Sept 5, 2009 0:06:56 GMT -6
I coach elementry School PE, and I can tell you the difference between 5 and 6 year olds is night and day, I could see how being a little older could help set you on the right track.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 5, 2009 8:54:37 GMT -6
My major issue with the "holding back" because of athletics at public schools is that I as a taxpayer am essentially paying for someone else's extra year just so they can be older than others.
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Post by phantom on Sept 5, 2009 9:04:59 GMT -6
So what do you think of doing it in this kid's case, where he's crazy for football and already working out hard, but really hasn't shown much talent or even athletic ability to speak of? I'm sure he can build himself up to a solid HS player in time but some coach and parents are telling him this will punch his ticket for the NFL. I'm also pretty sure the coaches are approaching 8th graders about this BEFORE talking to their parents. Personally I didn't turn 18 until a week before I graduated, or 17 until 2 mo before my senior season. I was lucky to always be big for my age, which allowed me to compete when I wasn't nearly as strong or as fast as the older kids on the field. I kinda got a rep as the class weakling because of it and I never did shake it. Looking back, I wish my parents had waited until I was 6 to start me in school now, but I'm glad I wasn't "redshirted" in MS. I was in the same boat. My birthday is in November so my parents had their choice of starting me early or late so they chose early. Didn't turn 17 until after my senior season and by the time I was 21 my college career (such as it was) was over. Hell, it's not like that's what kept me from my Heisman. This is very common in parts of Pennsylvania, or used to be. I talked to a coach who played for a team that was famous for it and he said that nobody gave it a second thought. That was just the way it was. He thought everybody did it. To answer your question, would I recommend it? No. Coach, I also live in Virginia. I'd really appreciate it if you'd PM me the name of the school. I promise you that I'm not looking to jam anybody up (after all, it's not illegal and you said they're a small school so we don't play them). I am very curious, is all. |
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Post by floridagator on Sept 5, 2009 9:15:31 GMT -6
I do not like that practice at all. To each his own but to not advance a kid when he has fulfilled his academic recquirments to me is a problem. I started when I was 4 because the way my birthday fell. I was younger then all my classmates and I started on my football team because I practiced and had a good work ethic. Go with what God gave ya. My goodness.
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Post by floridagator on Sept 5, 2009 9:21:12 GMT -6
I meant to add, isnt school supposed to be about academics and sports 2nd ? Maybe Im just from a different mold.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Sept 5, 2009 17:05:46 GMT -6
I meant to add, isnt school supposed to be about academics and sports 2nd ? Maybe Im just from a different mold. That's my biggest gripe with this thing. It's perfectly legal and the parents deserve more say over their kids' education than I do, but IMO it just sends the message that academics are meaningless and that football is the ONLY real path the kid has in life. When this kid finds out that colleges don't really prize undersized, slow LBs, what's he going to do? This is personal for me because I have cousins at the same school and the younger one (who's in 7th grade) has already approached his parents about it. |
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Post by Bill Vasko on Sept 7, 2009 15:53:03 GMT -6
Ohio has the same eligibility rule about turning 19 at some point--not sure when the exact cut-off date is.......
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Post by coachbdud on Sept 7, 2009 16:09:53 GMT -6
in CA if you turn 19 before June 15 then you are ineligible to play that fall...
If you turn 19 June 16th or later, then you can play
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