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Post by khalfie on Jan 31, 2009 0:20:04 GMT -6
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Post by brophy on Jan 31, 2009 13:56:01 GMT -6
Brophy, somewhere in there, did I seem to "get" the question? no, but I appreciate you contributing, although this really wasn't about "religion/faith's role in actually coaching"....it was about the cultural significance placed on claiming the hegemonic religious association. I believe it has been made clear several times that this is NOT about if witnessing is important, justified, or debatable. I think Khalife really hit the nail on the head with regards to political associations / usage of these titles to imply trust/competency equity ("instant credibility") - I was hoping to explore not necessarily HOW this is, but WHY we (as a profession) fall for it to vouch for coaching efficacy and/or why this formula isn't applied to other faiths. Imagine Dan Reeves or Tony Dungy (instantly associated men of faith) professing Allâh throughout their coaching career, would they be revered differently, more/less competently? My point being, these guys are seen as their coaching record + (something else) I also think that a lot of time "Christian" is really more of a code word for "white or black and decent." Many an atheist has been called a "good, Christian man" because he treats people well. yes, that may be the intent I was after - thanks.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Jan 31, 2009 17:05:49 GMT -6
Most religions all teach the same basic virtues of humility, compassion, charity towards your fellow man, etc. etc. ...and let's not forget jihad! Bad-a-bing, bad-a- BOOM!!!
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Post by Coach Huey on Jan 31, 2009 19:44:34 GMT -6
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Post by charger109 on Jan 31, 2009 21:02:10 GMT -6
Coach Seay, With all do respect. Jihad is not the definition that people think it is. Yes it can be related to war, but the word jihad also relates to a "war" within a person to not fall into temptation of evil deeds. Anyone who studies the True way of a Muslim will know first hand that it is forbidden to harm the innocent. 9/11 REALLY gave people a bad taste. A TRUE Muslim respects everyone. Jihad can still be used as a term for war as I stated before, but many of the wars that were fought years and years ago are when that "term" was used most often. I met a group of guys about 2 years ago (they were with the KKK) and I asked them what religion do they follow. They told be Christianity. Although I am not Christian, I was quick to tell them that they were not according to their actions, because from what I have learned, that is not what Christianity teaches and that it teaches kindness, respect etc...... So, overall we need to ALL including myself need to judge based off of what is taught in any religions authentic teachings and not just from what others say. I am sure you ment no harm or anything, it just caught my attention.
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Post by 19delta on Feb 1, 2009 5:15:47 GMT -6
I may have been to vague... with my "why most men like blondes..." The point was, and is, that the great lie, is that we like what we like. Its not true... the masses are moved by extremist... the extremist set the end points, and we, the masses, fall somewhere inbetween. Now I know many of you, immediately said, I could careless about blondes... and its probably true, but our standards of beauty have all been manipulated, by those of influence, whom for whatever reason, find blonde hair blue eyes to be attractive... Now I say that, to say this... Some of the most influential people to walk this planet, have been of the religious persuasion. Hence, people seeking other positions of influence, want to utilize the historical credibility garnered by those religiouslly inclined... Which is why most bad folks, immediately turn to god, once they have performed the worst of acts. Men seeking positions of influence, try to establish legitimacy and justification by defining themselves as religiously inclined... True or not... the masses won't know until its too late, but instant credibility can be established through religious affiliations, simply due to the strong history of religion within this country... And of course... in America, the religion of shoice has been christianity.... hence buddism, hindu, Islam, can not be utilized to garner such legitimacy, and therefore, those that practice said religion don't shout it to the world, because there's no leverage to be gained. My mother always told me... beware those that scream "praise the lord" the loudest... they need jesus the most. Those that have a private relationship with the lord, truly understand its importance. Great stuff, Khal! "Those who scream "Praise the Lord" the loudest need Jesus the most"...so true!
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Post by 19delta on Feb 1, 2009 5:26:17 GMT -6
Imagine Dan Reeves or Tony Dungy (instantly associated men of faith) professing Allâh throughout their coaching career, would they be revered differently, more/less competently? My point being, these guys are seen as their coaching record + (something else) I think if Reeves and Dungy were something other than Christian, you would have probably never heard about it. I also think that coaches who are public about their Christianity often get a "free pass" when they aren't very successful.
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Post by gunrun on Feb 1, 2009 13:00:49 GMT -6
Bill Belichick isn't a Christian, but he's a better coach than I'll ever be, even though I may be a Christian. didn't he go to a Methodist college? What determines if a coach is labelled as a Christian? If he practices, or if he professes? Good point, Brophy. He may very well be. I couldn't think of a coach who has said the he is not a Christian off the top of my head. What determines if a coach is "labeled" a Christian today is if they simply profess. Confessing to be something is easy. But practicing what you say is more important. Also, Khalfie makes a good point by stating that instant credibility can be established through religious affiliations by less than credible people. I have worked for a couple of coaches like that. I think that people today are more wary of those who profess and look more to a person's actions to try to determine credibility. Being wary and skeptical is a good thing. I would rather show someone what I believe than tell them and expect them to believe me without any proof.
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Post by brophy on Feb 1, 2009 15:42:18 GMT -6
...and let's not forget jihad! thank you for pointing out the "rule" that proves the rationale of this thread. Like there hasn't been any barbarism under the veil of White Man's Burden Christianity. The blind, spiteful, rhetoric that we use to classify groups (thereby lauding prestige on like-minded circles), only further fuels this kind of back-slapping, carte blanche good-ole-boying. If Kurt Warner's story wasn't palatable to the majority (if he was of a different religous persuasion), would he be seen differently? In that same regard, in the coaching profession, we do the same thing. "Coach John David's Wing-T" is entirely superior to "Coach Piyush's Wishbone", so when you go to the clinics, one of those guys is much more marketable.
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Post by 19delta on Feb 1, 2009 16:05:05 GMT -6
If Kurt Warner's story wasn't palatable to the majority (if he was of a different religous persuasion), would he be seen differently? In that same regard, in the coaching profession, we do the same thing. "Coach John David's Wing-T" is entirely superior to "Coach Piyush's Wishbone", so when you go to the clinics, one of those guys is much more marketable. The question SHOULD be, "If Warner was of a different religious persuasion, would he be as public about it as he is now?" The ONLY reason that religion is EVER an issue is when someone wears it on their sleeve. My guess is that there are more than a few Muslims in the NFL and other pro sports but it is not an issue because they are not public about it.
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acard78
Probationary Member
Posts: 10
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Post by acard78 on Feb 1, 2009 22:45:29 GMT -6
was cassius clay viewed different than mohamed ali?..... was lew alcindor viewed different than kareem abdul jabar? thats were the answer to this question is... (does religion cause the public to have a preconception about a person, do they lose respect if they are not christians?) but yeah there is still ignorance out there. it is also more prevelant in some places than others.
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Post by khalfie on Feb 1, 2009 22:54:35 GMT -6
was cassius clay viewed different than mohamed ali?..... was lew alcindor viewed different than kareem abdul jabar? thats were the answer to this question is... (does religion cause the public to have a preconception about a person, do they lose respect if they are not christians?) but yeah there is still ignorance out there. it is also more prevelant in some places than others. Ali and Jabbar caught big hell... excuse the pun after they changed their names and announced their "new" religions... It wasn't until late into his career that Ali was accepted by anyone besides the African American community... And Jabbar, he's still a piriaha... but I think it has a lot to do with his lack of social skills, in addition to the distance created by the announcing of his religion.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Feb 2, 2009 7:09:45 GMT -6
Coach Seay, With all do respect. Jihad is not the definition that people think it is. Yes it can be related to war, but the word jihad also relates to a "war" within a person to not fall into temptation of evil deeds. Anyone who studies the True way of a Muslim will know first hand that it is forbidden to harm the innocent. 9/11 REALLY gave people a bad taste. A TRUE Muslim respects everyone. Jihad can still be used as a term for war as I stated before, but many of the wars that were fought years and years ago are when that "term" was used most often. I met a group of guys about 2 years ago (they were with the KKK) and I asked them what religion do they follow. They told be Christianity. Although I am not Christian, I was quick to tell them that they were not according to their actions, because from what I have learned, that is not what Christianity teaches and that it teaches kindness, respect etc...... So, overall we need to ALL including myself need to judge based off of what is taught in any religions authentic teachings and not just from what others say. I am sure you ment no harm or anything, it just caught my attention. Once part of the Dar al-Harb passes into the Dar al-Islam, it can NEVER be allowed to pass back. Islam exists to unify the world in submission to Allah, by force if necessary. Any other view is either naive or mis- (or dis-)informed. I've studied Islam and the Quran since 1978, and it would behoove you to do the same. And that means more than uncritically accepting what they hand out at the mosques and madrassas.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Feb 2, 2009 7:18:28 GMT -6
Like there hasn't been any barbarism under the veil of White Man's Burden Christianity. The blind, spiteful, rhetoric that we use to classify groups (thereby lauding prestige on like-minded circles), only further fuels this kind of back-slapping, carte blanche good-ole-boying. You're right -- organized religion blows. When Rome coopted the young Christian phenomenon and turned it to an organized religion, true Christians were hunted down and killed -- a phenomenon which lasted well into the 17th century. And I wouldn't get too comfortable defending Islam, either, given its track record stretching from the time of the Prophet to today. None of which has anything to do with my relationship with my God. Just don't bring that "all-religions-are-equally-valid-and-all-deserve-our-respect" crap around, 'cause I ain't buying. And if that's offensive, go suck your thumb until you feel better.
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Post by brophy on Feb 2, 2009 9:01:45 GMT -6
And I wouldn't get too comfortable defending Islam, either, given its track record stretching from the time of the Prophet to today. Just don't bring that "all-religions-are-equally-valid-and-all-deserve-our-respect" crap around, great - but....uh... .NONE of that is what this thread topic is about. We are not attacking or defending anyone's faith here, so please, try to refrain from turning this into some kind of political rhetoric shouting match. We were attempting to go over how associations impact perceptions - right or wrong. I only pointed out the malicious bias presented and how that is the typical response to individuals who classify themselves as something outside of the acceptable mainstream associations.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Feb 2, 2009 9:45:22 GMT -6
great - but....uh... .NONE of that is what this thread topic is about. We are not attacking or defending anyone's faith here, so please, try to refrain from turning this into some kind of political rhetoric shouting match. I've done nothing of the sort. My first response was to the sort of hold-hands-and-chant-Hari-Kr...sorry-sing-kumbaya call to respect all religions that I suggested was unpersuasive. ...and then you let the truth slip out: See, THAT's what this thread is really about. And I can't particularly argue with you -- pious public pronouncements turn my stomach, too. But there's no reason for you to hide behind "acceptable mainstream" smoke -- call a spade a spade, coach, it's what you do best.
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Post by charger109 on Feb 2, 2009 15:05:47 GMT -6
Coach Seay, I don't know if you know this or not, but I am Muslim. I don't know what you mean by telling people that Islam says to force people to the religion by any means necessary? Where are you getting your information? Unless you can quote word for word from AUTHENTIC material, then it is not a fact. You CAN'T force anyone to be something they do not want to be. I have many members of my family who are of other religions. If you read the WHOLE Quran and you read AUTHENTIC books and things of that nature, you will see that it is FORBIDDEN to try and force someone to be a Muslim. It is NOT allowed, you are to teach with kindness, and respect of the others views. If you would like me to PROVE to you that what I am telling you the truth, then I can pm you are something of that nature. I have read books that say bad things Christan's and any religion and that they act a certain way etc..... but I go and ask those that KNOW. PREACH WHAT IS TAUGHT NOT WHAT IS THOUGHT. Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone, I have nothing but love for everyone one this board, it is the best board for football and helping us all reach our goals. Keep up the great work!
P.S I am sorry to any of you who have encounterd someone or even a group of people who have preached untrutful information about Islam, such as trying to force information or conversion. I know it goes on in the world and those that do so should not be doing so(that's the nicest i can say it). Thank you to those that do not judge ANYONES religion as a fator on their ability to coach the game of football. I have not seen anyone do so, I just want to say it good that football knowledge is the main focus.
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Post by dubber on Feb 3, 2009 10:40:09 GMT -6
Additionally, I wonder how a homosexual coach would fare with the parent club.
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Post by dubber on Feb 3, 2009 10:52:25 GMT -6
no, but I appreciate you contributing, My wife tells me the same thing.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 3, 2009 11:52:40 GMT -6
WOAH. WTF IS THIS THREAD ABOUT ?
Broph,
I agree- there is definitely some assumed instant-credibility associated with being a coach of "faith" that has been tapped for a long time...It is assumed that people who have faith in God are morally righteous and have self-discipline and sacrifice. I have always been skeptical of people like this. IMO Khalfie's comment was on point regarding those who scream religion loudest...
A non-Christian coach claiming faith would DEFINITELY not have the same affect-
IMO Faith is Faith- having it and TRULY adhering to your religious principles demonstrates self-discipline, sacrifice, and moral fortitude; belieiving in something bigger than a person [family/team/God]- nothing more. On the other hand claiming faith and FAILING to adhere to it makes you a hypocrite- in that case it would be better to have kept your religion to yourself...
To me- claiming Faith in God is a great thing, but not really appropriate for what we do- we coach football and teach young men about dealing with life- we are not pastors nor do we have the right to dabble/persuade in these young men's faith.
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Post by charger109 on Feb 3, 2009 18:13:28 GMT -6
Whitemike52, I agree with you. I work with coaches of many different opinions and faiths etc.... We respect each others views, but we just think that religion in football is not important. Some say football is a religion it's self(in a joking way of course).
Another point I think is important is that very few of us know each other by anything other than our profile name on this board. We all respect each other and give our opinions and views and assist with knowledge that we want to learn and help others learn. Football and Religion are different, but we all need to respect each others views in both and focus on FOOTBALL, the game we love no matter what. Coaches on the field get mad at each other at times and have differences of opinion, but when the game is over and you win or fight hard TOGETHER, no one cares about anything but the score board.
Many of you have helped me unconditionally and I know I do my best to help anyway I can. We don't even know eachother, but we go the extra mile to help each other, becasue we all have love for THE GAME.
All I care about is that you are a good person, respect others opinions and knowledge of the game and are doing your best to become the best coach you can be for yourself and young men and reaching your coaching goals.
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Post by k on Feb 3, 2009 20:52:25 GMT -6
Coach Seay, I don't know if you know this or not, but I am Muslim. I don't know what you mean by telling people that Islam says to force people to the religion by any means necessary? Where are you getting your information? Unless you can quote word for word from AUTHENTIC material, then it is not a fact. You CAN'T force anyone to be something they do not want to be. I have many members of my family who are of other religions. If you read the WHOLE Quran and you read AUTHENTIC books and things of that nature, you will see that it is FORBIDDEN to try and force someone to be a Muslim. It is NOT allowed, you are to teach with kindness, and respect of the others views. If you would like me to PROVE to you that what I am telling you the truth, then I can pm you are something of that nature. I have read books that say bad things Christan's and any religion and that they act a certain way etc..... but I go and ask those that KNOW. PREACH WHAT IS TAUGHT NOT WHAT IS THOUGHT. Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone, I have nothing but love for everyone one this board, it is the best board for football and helping us all reach our goals. Keep up the great work! P.S I am sorry to any of you who have encounterd someone or even a group of people who have preached untrutful information about Islam, such as trying to force information or conversion. I know it goes on in the world and those that do so should not be doing so(that's the nicest i can say it). Thank you to those that do not judge ANYONES religion as a fator on their ability to coach the game of football. I have not seen anyone do so, I just want to say it good that football knowledge is the main focus. From my experience the older the verse the more likely it is to be as you say. The later the verse the less likely. That and the Quran like the Bible contradicts itself a bazillion times but then again no devout literalist will ever admit that is the case about their holy book so I guess the only reason I say it is to stick mud.
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Post by coachweav88 on Feb 3, 2009 20:52:26 GMT -6
You're right -- organized religion blows. When Rome coopted the young Christian phenomenon and turned it to an organized religion, true Christians were hunted down and killed -- a phenomenon which lasted well into the 17th century. Great historical reference Ted! When Constantine converted to Christianity it became problematic for Christianity because now, Rome had a "Christian Emperor" which made people think Rome was a "Christian nation". Therefore if you were a Roman, you were now a Christian. No following Christ required. I feel the same thing is happening in America. People think America is a "Christian nation" , so therefore being American=being a Christian. Not true. So if everyone's supposedly a Christian (at least a majority THINK they are a Christian) then, you get the good old boy network that Brophy is talking about and differences are met with hostility. I find the whole concept of a "Christian nation" disturbing but I won't get into it here because it is on theological grounds and this is not a theology forum If you would like to read more about my train of though on this you can read one of my papers I wrote in college www.scribd.com/doc/11623945/Ethics-2especially pages 9-13 (However, these pages will make more sense if you read the entire essay.)
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Post by k on Feb 3, 2009 20:55:35 GMT -6
Additionally, I wonder how a homosexual coach would fare with the parent club. I know one. Some parents care but then again those parents wouldn't want a black or hispanic or Muslim or Atheist coach either and are just unwilling to homeschool their kids to keep them from ever meeting anyone different so *shrugs*. Most don't care and only a couple of the kids cared one Evangelical Born Again kid left the team and told his entire teammates they were going to hell for merely spending time with that coach because he was going to give them teh gay. Then again in rural Texas I bet it is the direct opposite where one kid feels its ok and everyone else wants to run him out of town on a rail.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Feb 4, 2009 11:54:13 GMT -6
Coach Seay, I don't know if you know this or not, but I am Muslim. I don't know what you mean by telling people that Islam says to force people to the religion by any means necessary? Where are you getting your information? Unless you can quote word for word from AUTHENTIC material, then it is not a fact. You CAN'T force anyone to be something they do not want to be. I have many members of my family who are of other religions. If you read the WHOLE Quran and you read AUTHENTIC books and things of that nature, you will see that it is FORBIDDEN to try and force someone to be a Muslim. It is NOT allowed, you are to teach with kindness, and respect of the others views. If you would like me to PROVE to you that what I am telling you the truth, then I can pm you are something of that nature. I have read books that say bad things Christan's and any religion and that they act a certain way etc..... but I go and ask those that KNOW. PREACH WHAT IS TAUGHT NOT WHAT IS THOUGHT. Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone, I have nothing but love for everyone one this board, it is the best board for football and helping us all reach our goals. Keep up the great work! P.S I am sorry to any of you who have encounterd someone or even a group of people who have preached untrutful information about Islam, such as trying to force information or conversion. I know it goes on in the world and those that do so should not be doing so(that's the nicest i can say it). Thank you to those that do not judge ANYONES religion as a fator on their ability to coach the game of football. I have not seen anyone do so, I just want to say it good that football knowledge is the main focus. Coach: I will not attempt to dissuade you from your religious beliefs. However, everything I wrote in the post you replied to is 100% accurate to the best of my knowledge, and my knowledge encompasses over thirty years of study and work in foreign relations and national security. This board is not about religion, it is about football -- which is why starting a thread on subjects even tangentially related to religion is not a great idea. I'm done here.
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Post by brophy on Feb 4, 2009 12:15:52 GMT -6
This board is not about religion, it is about football -- which is why starting a thread on subjects even tangentially related to religion is not a great idea. with all due respect (which I have nothing BUT respect for Mr.Seay), this thread wasn't about doctrines or practices at all, up until someone made a slur about a particular faith ('jihad'). I appreciate the folks who did understand the concept of what was attempted to be discussed here. The sexual orientation is another fine dynamic that encompasses this picture. It was just a question, regarding this profession (that is predominant in the South) that I felt could gain some insightful (and mature) perspectives. I feel the same thing is happening in America. People think America is a "Christian nation" , so therefore being American=being a Christian. Not true. and that captures it right there. The converse is true, as well. Christian = American ............................. .not Christian?..... well, you can't be American, then can you?And again, not saying ANYTHING against the Gospel or faith. This is entirely about perception and using these backdrops to present something as more than it is. The same calculus could be applied to a 'gun-owner' vs 'non-gun owner' if you live in a hunting community. But because religion is so predominant in these regions (and implies so much about character) it would appear to be the least common denominator.
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Post by coachweav88 on Feb 4, 2009 14:38:03 GMT -6
"The Church must learn time and again that its task is not to make the world the kingdom, but to be faithful to the kingdom by showing the world a community of peace."
Stanley Hauerwas
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Post by coachweav88 on Feb 4, 2009 14:40:43 GMT -6
Had to throw that in there lol
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Post by brophy on Mar 29, 2009 13:36:40 GMT -6
I'm going to go off the deep-end here, so feel free to bail out, but....
If a coach is "of faith" and feels the need to share it with his players, obviously, that is okay.
However, if a coach does not believe in religion, would we feel the same if he shared his views against practicing superstitions?
Just thinking aloud, but are 'evangelical' coaches more inclined to believe in "systems" as the saving grace, (ala substance of things hoped for) rather than believing in that which they can teach? Whereas, I am going to run the Rice Krispy offense, and that alone will give us wins (ala, I just need to pray and God will take care of things) rather than taking the attitude of doing it all yourself (if I don't ensure this happens, it won't happen). All I am asking is - does this way of thinking lend itself to less accountability, less rational approach to getting it done?
**(preparing to be cast out of the camp with the menstrating unclean women in 3....2.....1....)
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Post by khalfie on Mar 29, 2009 13:55:55 GMT -6
I'm going to go off the deep-end here, so feel free to bail out, but.... If a coach is "of faith" and feels the need to share it with his players, obviously, that is okay. However, if a coach does not believe in religion, would we feel the same if he shared his views against practicing superstitions? Just thinking aloud, but are 'evangelical' coaches more inclined to believe in "systems" as the saving grace, (ala substance of things hoped for) rather than believing in that which they can teach? Whereas, I am going to run the Rice Krispy offense, and that alone will give us wins (ala, I just need to pray and God will take care of things) rather than taking the attitude of doing it all yourself (if I don't ensure this happens, it won't happen). All I am asking is - does this way of thinking lend itself to less accountability, less rational approach to getting it done? **(preparing to be cast out of the camp with the menstrating unclean women in 3....2.....1....) Hill Larry Us! (That's right... I said it!) Are you asking... Since religion is based on faith and prayer... Do Christian coaches apply that same faith and prayer to other aspects of their life, such as offensive scheme and player development. And if not, why not? Are you asking... if faith and prayer are good enough for your spiritual essence, why not for other less imporant initiatives? If that's your question.... Great question! If its not... you should ask more questions like me...
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