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Post by kylem56 on Aug 9, 2009 18:38:36 GMT -6
Coaches, if you dont mind , I would like your opinion on this
Is it ethical to call up coaches who are scrimmaging an oppoenent in your league to see if you can obtain a tape of the scrimmage in exchange for film of you scrimmaging one of the teams that are in their league ?
Sorry if that sounds kinda confusing.
For example
East High School is not in our league but they are scrimmaging West High School who we play for a league game
We are scrimmaging North High School who is in the same league as East High School. My proposal was to trade a copy of our scrimmage with North HS to East HS in exchange for their scrimmage.
There is a couple situations like this, this preseason and I just wondered how ethical it is since we are not permitted to go film the scrimmages ourselves. Thanks Kyle
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Post by wingtol on Aug 9, 2009 19:01:18 GMT -6
Why does Ohio still cling to the whole no taping your opponents games in person? we played a few teams from Ohio several years ago and I think it would be easier to get access to the President than it is to be able to film a game in Ohio form the stands. You would have thought we were trying to get classified clearances with all the stuff we had to show going into a game. What give do they still enforce that through out the state?
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Post by kylem56 on Aug 9, 2009 19:11:56 GMT -6
wingtol I agree. When I coached and played in Michigan, it was so much more convient to be able to send your own people to film oppoenents. Go figure though
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coachriley
Junior Member
"Tough times don't last; Tough people do."
Posts: 406
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Post by coachriley on Aug 10, 2009 0:23:38 GMT -6
I never considered that unethical, hell we did it all the time lol. I just figured it was another way to get some game film.
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Post by kylem56 on Aug 10, 2009 1:27:56 GMT -6
I never considered that unethical, hell we did it all the time lol. I just figured it was another way to get some game film. Same here. One of the other coaches (on one of the other teams) seemed hesistant and said he would had to confer with the rest of his staff so I was kinda like 'ummmmm alright" . Thanks |
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Post by John Knight on Aug 10, 2009 4:59:12 GMT -6
why not just trade film with the team you are playing. If they want to trade scrimmage videos, do it. If not don't sneak around and get video, send a scout to watch it instead.
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Post by seagull73 on Aug 10, 2009 7:03:53 GMT -6
I don't know if they have any medical value but they do fell good after a hot practice, that is after the initial scream.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Aug 10, 2009 8:05:31 GMT -6
Scouting in person is better in my opinion. You can be decieved by film when you don't know the quality of the opponent.
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Post by coachorr on Aug 10, 2009 9:26:03 GMT -6
I think if you have to ask if it is ethical, that is your internal barometer telling you it is not.
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Post by handsman on Aug 10, 2009 9:47:20 GMT -6
I say go directly to the school and trade with them. Yours for theirs. Besides, it is just a scrimmage/preseason. Now you can work on execution.
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Post by phantom on Aug 10, 2009 10:46:42 GMT -6
We sometimes tape opponents but it's not for any underhanded reason. We still trade. We have an editing system and when we trade the copy that we get is often not digital. By using our own digital camera we eliminate some steps in breaking down the video.
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Post by 42falcon on Aug 10, 2009 12:18:12 GMT -6
I think it is fine to tape them. It is not unethical to get film on an oponent if you said I want to break into their school and steal their playbook now we may have something!!
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Post by drewdawg265 on Aug 10, 2009 12:42:42 GMT -6
It is always ethical in my book to get film on your opponent. I am always willing to exchange but if the other coaches do not want to do that I am going to either send someone to film or exchange with their opponents. We never go into a game without plenty of film. If it is the first game of the season we will try and get a summer or spring scrimmage on film.
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Post by midlineqb on Aug 10, 2009 13:02:16 GMT -6
WOW! Filming an upcoming opponent is something new to me. I don't remember hearing of anyone doing that when I coached in Oklahoma and Kansas. To me that is unethical unless you would have prior permission the school you are filming. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by coachorr on Aug 10, 2009 13:33:27 GMT -6
Call the school directly of whom you want film and see if they in fact want to exchange and then go from there.
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Post by PSS on Aug 10, 2009 17:07:08 GMT -6
Never really heard of filming an opponent's game yourself. That is considered unethical in Texas. Coaches set up trades for the previous game, usually 2 games, sometimes 3 games.
By the time you get to district / conference play their is a district / conference rule that dictates the number of tapes you HAVE to trade.
Problem is some schools will film a trade copy (crappy tape) and a regular copy (for themselves). You usually know these schools so you go out on your own and set up trades with other schools with common opponents.
Fair deal because both schools get good copies of tapes of an opponent that is trying to get over on you.
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Post by wingtol on Aug 10, 2009 17:36:00 GMT -6
Never really heard of filming an opponent's game yourself. That is considered unethical in Texas. Coaches set up trades for the previous game, usually 2 games, sometimes 3 games. By the time you get to district / conference play their is a district / conference rule that dictates the number of tapes you HAVE to trade. Problem is some schools will film a trade copy (crappy tape) and a regular copy (for themselves). You usually know these schools so you go out on your own and set up trades with other schools with common opponents. Fair deal because both schools get good copies of tapes of an opponent that is trying to get over on you. Pretty common around here that you were on your own to get out and film the games yourself. The region we are in now has some good guys in it so we do the 2 previous games as a trade. Lots of other guys I know still have to hit the road and scout the games in person and film it. When I was on the lower levels at a bigger school I think I was lucky to get to 2 varsity games a year since we were always on the road scouting somewhere. Playoffs are even worse since there is no state by-law or anything, you are at the mercy of the other coaches if they want to do a trade or not. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 10, 2009 18:31:44 GMT -6
Louisiana doesn't really film opponents. More of a trade state. However, I think I would be more open to getting my own film than trading sometimes. I am tired of 4 wide spread teams trading film of the O line, qb and rb. 50 snaps of vertical sets....and just guess the route.
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Post by lochness on Aug 10, 2009 18:34:44 GMT -6
Just call the school directly and ask to trade film. That way, there's no "ethics" questions whatsoever.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 10, 2009 19:42:10 GMT -6
As long as you're EXCHANGING film, I don't see any issue; but it's a little bit of a grey area if you send someone to film the game and vice versa. Film your own stuff and offer to exchange; if they give you a sh-tty film, call them out on it and then send that film to every team on their schedule for that year.  However, don't get in the habit of playing this game; make sure that you send out quality film and the favor should be returned. We play team that makes two films of their games; a good copy for them and one filmed by a 5 year old on the sideline... The is especially true when it comes to scrimmages and it drives us nuts. But, as the season progresses, you'll get good copies of them from other teams; SHARE the wealth with the rest of the conference and teach them a lesson. I wouldn't get in the habit of sending staff to film opponents; it's just unprofessional. Talk it out, set up a film exchange and go from there. |
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Post by k on Aug 10, 2009 20:01:03 GMT -6
WOW! Filming an upcoming opponent is something new to me. I don't remember hearing of anyone doing that when I coached in Oklahoma and Kansas. To me that is unethical unless you would have prior permission the school you are filming. Just my 2 cents. I've never heard of someone NOT filming their opponents. For our week 11 opponent I would guess we will have filmed them 10 times. I'd wager that half of those games we will be allowed to use the press box to do it. Trading film is much rarer. We trade with programs with have connections to (ie we played team A already and call up HC of team A and trade them film from our game with team B for their film of team C. This is done when for whatever reason we can't get someone out to tape the game ourselves. |
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Post by kylem56 on Aug 10, 2009 23:57:22 GMT -6
I dont know if I made myself clear enough in my initial post. This would be a trade with a NON LEAGUE team's scrimmage with a league team who we will not see untill later on in the year. During the regular season, we trade our last 3 game films with whomever we are playing that week so realy it would be gaining additional films of our league teams. In the situation I was talking about, we will recieve those scrimmage films regardless via exchange the Sat. before the game week but by doing this "trade" with Team C (non league, non oppoenent), we would just have the film sooner.
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Post by coachorr on Aug 11, 2009 0:27:17 GMT -6
I think that makes it more "in the gray area" for lack of a better word. It is a pre-season film, of which the future opponent will not have access to an equal film of your team. What would you say if you did the exchange and the HC of the other school questioned you about it? Pretty gray area really. I think the best way to do it without feeling unethical at all is call the coach of the school of whom you want the film.
In season scheduled games are public events, I see no problem with filming those unless the league has an agreement not to. Pre-season scrimmages are usually closed to some degree.
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Post by kylem56 on Aug 11, 2009 1:13:04 GMT -6
I gotcha, I understand where you are coming from. Sometimes its hard to draw the line between gray area and just wanting to win. THanks for the opinions everyone
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Post by kylem56 on Aug 11, 2009 1:14:18 GMT -6
I gotcha, I understand where you are coming from. Sometimes its hard to draw the line between gray area and just wanting to win. THanks for the opinions everyone
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Post by wingtol on Aug 11, 2009 6:50:11 GMT -6
Dang it's kind of funny to read all this since it's like the wild west up here when it comes to film! LOL Get what you can however you can because everybody is doing the same to you!
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Post by coachbrown3 on Aug 11, 2009 8:23:52 GMT -6
I agree, in PA there are some coaches who don't believe in ethics...... unless he runs a 4.4.......
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byuwolverine
Junior Member
Life is a game of inches --- Add them up in any aspect and there is your outcome.
Posts: 285
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Post by byuwolverine on Aug 11, 2009 8:48:29 GMT -6
Unethical? Really? I spent 7 of the 9 regular season games on the road scouting/filming the Varsity's upcoming opponent last year. I even get a scouting pass issued to each school to get in free from our league in Metro Detroit (we are a league with 20-25 schools 1,000 kids up). The funny thing is a couple time I had to trade before the game with the coaches of the other school. In one hand I had the tapes to use as a trade, and in the other my filming bag. Its common practice here.
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Post by coachorr on Aug 11, 2009 10:45:16 GMT -6
BYU, those are regular season games, not scrimmages.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 11, 2009 10:59:57 GMT -6
My suggestion; meet with the rest of the coaches in your conference, use an online film exchange service, and solve yourself a lot of travel expenses and problems. It will reduce EVERYONE'S expenses and it's an easy and professional process.
This is what we do and it has made our lives much, much easier.
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However, don't get in the habit of playing this game; make sure that you send out quality film and the favor should be returned.