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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 30, 2009 15:50:16 GMT -6
I had this conversation twice in the last week. one with a person in the community and a separate conversation with a coach in another state who was in similar surroundings. The conversation went something like this: me "numbers are tough, we are ok but thin" "you want the kids to workout so you can compete- theres another way to compete, get rid of conditioning, tough discipline and consequences for missed workouts and numbers will go up and better athletes will come out to play" both persons said "our kids want to be kids, they want to be on vacation with everyone else" both persons said based on their experiences that very small schools do better with lowered expectations and less pressure on the kids. more kids, better kids, will play and the team will be better even without lifting and running. the funny thing, both persons said it almost exactly like that and both based it on their experiences. What do you think about that?  |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 30, 2009 16:03:13 GMT -6
Were either of these people busy polishing state championship rings while they were talking with you?
You don't win a championship with a .500 blue print. What do you want to accomplish?
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Post by Bill Vasko on Jul 30, 2009 16:15:28 GMT -6
The better kids will come out when you are putting a better product on the field......
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Post by airraider on Jul 30, 2009 16:39:14 GMT -6
We are about to find out.. Due to lack of help.. and lack of means.. I was not able to be as flexible with out weightroom hours as I wanted.. end result.. hardly any weightroom time for over half the team this summer..
Had great turnout in 7 on 7.. probably had 90% of our starters there 90% of the time..
I could have said.. you either be here at this time or you do not play.. but I might would have ended up with 10 kids..
Its a tough dance with recruiting the halls and then keeping those kids that you begged out..
Its a work in progress.. I will have them in 4th block and will work the dog out of them.. and once the off season hits.. I hope they will see results that will make them not want to lose it during the summer..
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Post by fatkicker on Jul 30, 2009 17:08:39 GMT -6
what about that d3 coach? no weights, no full pads, no tackling, no conditioning, no playbooks, no whistles, they call him john instead of coach......
works for him......
always wondered what the catch was though.......there's gotta be a catch....
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Post by jpdaley25 on Jul 30, 2009 17:20:36 GMT -6
I've seen it done.
I've seen a line of studs averaging 6-3, 300 Lbs run out of gas in every 2nd and 4th quarter and get their butts kicked by teams who should never have been on the field with them.
I've seen four year starting offensive linemen who didnt know what a base, reach, or a scoop block was.
I've seen the coach say sprint around the cone and the lazy player cut it off 5 yards short on a jog and nothing was ever said.
I've seen state championship caliber talent go 5-5 and 4-6.
I've seen a large number of boys cheated from learning what football could have taught them.
Don't even think about going down that road. Once you loosen the reigns, you won't ever get them tightened back up again, and you won't be in control.
JMO
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 30, 2009 17:34:02 GMT -6
Dont worry, Im not that type. I believe in exactly what we are doing.
We are going to be very good this year, we are on a 4 game win streak and I know we can win a bunch of games this year if we stay healthy. We dont have a bunch of talent and depth but we will be very good at running our dw offense. We are going to trim the playbook and work harder at the core and feature our studs. We will be coached better by all of our coaches and we should show improved conditioning and strength because of our expectations and teh work we have put in.
If we stay healthy we will be great and I agree, more kids will come out even with our lifting, discipline and conditioning etc.
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Post by whitebarb on Jul 30, 2009 19:14:13 GMT -6
My Old HS, who I am now an assistant of only does voluntary workouts during the summer, numbers are usually between 15-20. We are a school of 900 that average 50 JV and 50 Varsity. We have won 2 JV championshipss in the last 4 years and 2 Provincial titles in the last 5 years. In ontario we cant practice until 2 weeks before school starts so it is tough for us to get everything installed but we are very successful in having hard working kids who come in hungry and seem to pick up the offensive and defensive playbook very quick.
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Post by pantherpride91 on Jul 30, 2009 20:08:09 GMT -6
I was told once by a highly successful coach that a successful weight room will net you 2 wins a season. I not only believe, but have played in it. When I was in school we routinely beat teams with d-1 kids just on the fact we were stronger and in better conditions. In Ohio, the "team of athletes" often get beat by the team that works.
If a kid is unwilling to put the time and effort in during the offseason, do you really trust him on friday nights?
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Post by rcole on Jul 30, 2009 20:26:36 GMT -6
I am all about the weight room, conditioning, off-season commitment, etc. I do, however, have an example of how it did work at one school in my area. The school has traditionally struggled at football. They have a stellar baseball program, winning 5 state championships in 7 years and being ranked #1 nationally. They have won a ridiculous number of state titles in what we call "country club" sports. They actually won 11 boys CC and 8 girls CC championships in a row. Played for 6 basketball state titles in 8 years and won 3 or 4. 1300 students, very affluent, top 5% wage earner demographic. Have only had maybe 5 to 10 winning seasons in football in 35 years. A few years ago they backed off the kids a little. Did not pressure them to lift...I mean they had off-season stuff, a small core of kids came...but whoever showed up on the first day of practice was welcome. They were able to get a few of the state championship caliber baseball kids out...they brought high expectations and swagger with them and it infected the team. They won 5 that year after only winning 3 the previous three years combined. Those baseball kids dominated the defensive side of the ball and gave them a very good Qb. The next year more baseball kids came out and they won 8 (might have been the 2nd or 3rd time in school history). They had about a 3 year run. The head coach retired and over half the staff left. They have gone down the drain again. When I would talk to the coaches inside the staff, they credited getting the baseball kids out and getting away from harping on the kids about weights and other off-season stuff as being the key to the turn around. I don't like it and I don't think it is a long term answer. But it seemed to work for them. I doubt that is the route to building a dynasty or winning a title. I guess there are some schools where it is a matter of survival. For me the key would be to not take a job as a head coach at those schools.
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Post by coachweav88 on Jul 30, 2009 21:10:07 GMT -6
what about that d3 coach? no weights, no full pads, no tackling, no conditioning, no playbooks, no whistles, they call him john instead of coach...... works for him...... always wondered what the catch was though.......there's gotta be a catch.... He has college athletes. By the time they get to him, they should know how to tackle. Just because weightlifting isn't mandatory, doesn't mean those players don't lift weights  One thing that stands out to me about John Gagliardi is efficiency. There is absolutely no wasted time in that program. If he doesn't feel something serves a purpose, he gets rid of it. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 30, 2009 21:12:23 GMT -6
I am all about the weight room, conditioning, off-season commitment, etc. I do, however, have an example of how it did work at one school in my area. The school has traditionally struggled at football. They have a stellar baseball program, winning 5 state championships in 7 years and being ranked #1 nationally. They have won a ridiculous number of state titles in what we call "country club" sports. They actually won 11 boys CC and 8 girls CC championships in a row. Played for 6 basketball state titles in 8 years and won 3 or 4. 1300 students, very affluent, top 5% wage earner demographic. Have only had maybe 5 to 10 winning seasons in football in 35 years. A few years ago they backed off the kids a little. Did not pressure them to lift...I mean they had off-season stuff, a small core of kids came...but whoever showed up on the first day of practice was welcome. They were able to get a few of the state championship caliber baseball kids out...they brought high expectations and swagger with them and it infected the team. They won 5 that year after only winning 3 the previous three years combined. Those baseball kids dominated the defensive side of the ball and gave them a very good Qb. The next year more baseball kids came out and they won 8 (might have been the 2nd or 3rd time in school history). They had about a 3 year run. The head coach retired and over half the staff left. They have gone down the drain again. When I would talk to the coaches inside the staff, they credited getting the baseball kids out and getting away from harping on the kids about weights and other off-season stuff as being the key to the turn around. I don't like it and I don't think it is a long term answer. But it seemed to work for them. I doubt that is the route to building a dynasty or winning a title. I guess there are some schools where it is a matter of survival. For me the key would be to not take a job as a head coach at those schools. My question is..how hard did those basketball and baseball kids work at basketball and baseball to win those titles? ? And as you showed, they won some games, but I maintain that you DON'T WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS WITH A .500 BLUEPRINT. |
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Post by rcole on Jul 30, 2009 21:21:33 GMT -6
As I stated, I am with you.
The baseball kids work hard at playing...take private hitting lessons...3 or four seasons with fall ball - summer leagues, lift upper body at the private gym, sometimes.
The basketball kids just played ball.
None of the title teams had organized team weights for more the 4 to six weeks a year...and when they did it wasn't very good. They also won more than ten soccer titles in 20 years.
Hadn't won in an explosive sport in more than a decade. The basketball wins were more than ten years ago and almost all of the players were illegal recruits (I actually worked there for 3 years a loooong time ago so this is first hand).
They continue to dominate the country club sports.
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Post by coachweav88 on Jul 30, 2009 21:40:02 GMT -6
I have seen a team around here win 7 state championships with no football activities scheduled in june (including lifting). However, from what I gather, their practices were intense and they had high expectations.
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Post by rcole on Jul 30, 2009 22:34:57 GMT -6
I don't know why I didn't think of this before...but at that same school I was the head track coach for 3 years. I was on the track team in college so I was not just some football guy stuck with track. However, because I was a football guy, I expected things to be done the right way. The coach before me allowed the kids to come and go as they pleased, miss practices, miss meets, just show up when they could make it, some even only showed up for meets. He averaged over 60 boys and 60 girls on the team each year. They finished top three in the state every year. When I took over I fought that culture, I made them take it more seriously, treated it like other team sports. Kids wanted to miss practice for hair cuts. One girl wanted to miss a meet to watch her best friend in his first soccer match. Most of the girls missed all of the practices the week of cheer try outs. All of the sprinters missed every time there was a step team practice (this was not even school sanctioned). I made them come to practice or sit out of the meet. Three practices missed and you are off the team. The numbers dwindled. After three years of running things the right way I was down to half the number of kids. The way they had won meets before was with depth. The reason they did so well in state before was because they had so many CC kids and soccer kids that just showed up and ran when they felt like it. We got worse every year as the numbers declined. All of the teams we were competing against were permissive as the previous coach had been. If I had to be permissive to compete, then I just wasn't going to coach that sport, nor for that matter stay at that school.
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Post by phantom on Jul 30, 2009 22:45:16 GMT -6
I don't know why I didn't think of this before...but at that same school I was the head track coach for 3 years. I was on the track team in college so I was not just some football guy stuck with track. However, because I was a football guy, I expected things to be done the right way. The coach before me allowed the kids to come and go as they pleased, miss practices, miss meets, just show up when they could make it, some even only showed up for meets. He averaged over 60 boys and 60 girls on the team each year. They finished top three in the state every year. When I took over I fought that culture, I made them take it more seriously, treated it like other team sports. Kids wanted to miss practice for hair cuts. One girl wanted to miss a meet to watch her best friend in his first soccer match. Most of the girls missed all of the practices the week of cheer try outs. All of the sprinters missed every time there was a step team practice (this was not even school sanctioned). I made them come to practice or sit out of the meet. Three practices missed and you are off the team. The numbers dwindled. After three years of running things the right way I was down to half the number of kids. The way they had won meets before was with depth. The reason they did so well in state before was because they had so many CC kids and soccer kids that just showed up and ran when they felt like it. We got worse every year as the numbers declined. All of the teams we were competing against were permissive as the previous coach had been. If I had to be permissive to compete, then I just wasn't going to coach that sport, nor for that matter stay at that school. For the heck of it I'll ask the question- if "the right way" is counterproductive and leads to less team success is it the right way? |
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Post by rcole on Jul 30, 2009 22:54:09 GMT -6
Good question. I suppose not. Just could not bear the have them coming and going so casually. I was a first year coach and may not have done a great job. Have no interest in doing it again. Just turns my stomach to think about the culture that is track and Field in my area. Just can't jive with the team philosophy of "whatever is fine."
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Post by phantom on Jul 31, 2009 5:33:56 GMT -6
Good question. I suppose not. Just could not bear the have them coming and going so casually. I was a first year coach and may not have done a great job. Have no interest in doing it again. Just turns my stomach to think about the culture that is track and Field in my area. Just can't jive with the team philosophy of "whatever is fine." Coach, I feel ya because I used to coach track and just found it too grab-a$$y. There is something to be said about understanding the culture of a program. Not every coach is a good match for every team. You were the wrong guy for that job and I probably would be, too. |
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newhc
Sophomore Member
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Post by newhc on Jul 31, 2009 5:53:57 GMT -6
Coaches, This has been great for me to read this post. I have the same problems low numbers, and low commitment. I just feel that if I allow them to do what they want and be committed then am I really doing what I say my mission is as a coach.. Turn boys into men. Am I doing that? I just don't believe that. I am trying my best to be open minded, but I think that if you are a slacker.. then you normally slack at most of the things that you do. Just my .02.
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Post by phantom on Jul 31, 2009 6:29:17 GMT -6
Coaches, This has been great for me to read this post. I have the same problems low numbers, and low commitment. I just feel that if I allow them to do what they want and be committed then am I really doing what I say my mission is as a coach.. Turn boys into men. Am I doing that? I just don't believe that. I am trying my best to be open minded, but I think that if you are a slacker.. then you normally slack at most of the things that you do. Just my .02. Before I start I want to make it clear that what I'm going to say applies only to off-season conditioning. There is no excuse for missing actual practice. Can't you teach those lessons during the season? I'm 55 so I remember a time when off-season conditioning programs were much more relaxed (no 7 on 7s, limited weights). Some schools had no off-season programs. In fact, the offseason program at our school was the exception at the time. Coaches taught life lessons back then. They just had to do it from August to November. What is slacking? Is it slacking if a kid misses conditioning to have a job. Even in cases where the family doesn't need the money there are parents who feel that their kids should have a job. In their value system learning to work at a job is more important that off-season conditioning. What about kids who play other sports? I've seen coaches in this forum who consider missing weights for basketball practice to be unexcused absences. Not everybody has weightlifting classes or athletic periods during the school day. They're committed. During football season they're committed to football. During basketball season or baseball season they're committed to that sport. The objective is to win. If grinding is making it harder to do that then maybe grinding isn't the way to go at that school. I'm not talking about keeping criminals or a$$holes around to win. If a kid doesn't want to work hard but is still the better player, well, that's just life. |
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Post by bluecrazy on Jul 31, 2009 6:40:10 GMT -6
I have seen a team around here win 7 state championships with no football activities scheduled in june (including lifting). However, from what I gather, their practices were intense and they had high expectations. Coach, I'm going to hang my hat on this one. "Intense Practice" to get into shape, and do what we can to be the best we can. You have to work with what you get. We also have very little turn out in summer, or in school/ out of season work outs. I guess the intense up-tempo practice is what we have to go with. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 31, 2009 6:50:26 GMT -6
I know that there were some kids who got irked that they signed up for football but I made them lift all season. (one that I know of for sure) Its what I believe in and it paid off for us. there are kids who just hate weights and they dont think they should have to do it.
I look at it like this..."am i going to win the state title without weights with even the best kids in the school coming out?" no, we are not, not without great practice attendance and work ethic. "can we take these very average kids and compete if we work hard?" yes we can "can we improve these average kids with weights over the next 2-3 years?" you betchya.
but only if they consistently workout and pay attention to the nutrition plans I have provided.
Ultimately a PROGRAM builds and makes and breeds athletes, doesnt just beg and plead and wait for them to decide to play (several who will only play when they can look around and be convinced that the team will win easily).
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Post by rpetrie on Jul 31, 2009 7:37:23 GMT -6
Phantom makes the best point...cultures and values vary by family and community... and sometimes our own opinions (or egos) do get in the way. I admire those programs that have facilities, schedules, administrative support to mandate year-round workouts and that are able to hold kids accountable. It's not in my situation so what can I do? I can't change a family's values...I have no right particularly if what they are doing is solid. I can't build a weight room that meets my desires no matter how much I fundraise. And lastly I would never move or relocate because of a football job. Face it...teaching pays the mortgage and my teaching job is top notch. I have kids who play 3 sports and baseball/basketball during the summer. We've reduced our summer weight room times to 3 days a week for 1.5 hours...short intense workouts...get'em in & out with quality not quantity has become the philosophy. We do 7-on-7 stuff/linemen skills 2 nights a week. IF we get them more frequently then its our bonus. If not...we have to be better coaches (organizers and teachers) to get the job done right during the season. Do I believe it's a .500 blueprint...NO. It's the best combination of what can be expected with what I am comfortable with as a coach. I've been on 2 State Championship staffs so I am familiar with what it takes. The best teams are a combination of year-around workhorses who live & breath football with natural athletes who can just play. Throw in a few intangibles and you've got a championship blue print for the common man.
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Post by coachks on Jul 31, 2009 8:22:48 GMT -6
I think some of this is also coaching. These are kids and most of them dont' love football the way we love it. That's just life.
In order to get attendance and high morale, lifting and conditioning can't be a constant drag. It needs, at some level, to be fun. If it isn't fun, at any level, than what is the point of participating?
That doesn't mean the kids don't work hard or that you cater to them. It means you can't just have them squat squat squat and then run sprints 5 days a week all summer. There's gotta be some variety, some compeition events and every day can't be a survival of the fittest.
Football season is a long enough grind. Practice can be intense and a true challenge, but off-season stuff needs to be a preparation for that challenge, not a prolonged version of that challenge.
Not saying that to anyone in particular, it's just more of a general statement. I see too many guys at clinics talking about their hour lifting sessions followed by intense speed and plyo training that gets the kids into great shape. I'm sure it does, but what kid of mental shape are they in?
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Post by coachcastleman on Jul 31, 2009 8:47:48 GMT -6
Culture and expectations of the community are a big part of it. We are a small school of 190 kids and only have 30 players on the team. However, we have at least 90% attendance at all summer lifting and 7 on 7. Are attendance in the weight room during school is almost 100%. We do lifting in the morning during school so there is not conflict with other sports. Most of our players are multi-sport guys, so in the summer we get creative with scheduling. There is such pressure from the community to win, that the players will do whatever it takes. I think that if I had lifting at 4:00am I would still get just about everyone there. I realize that this is not normal for a lot of people. I would love to have better numbers, but I will take my 30 players who know how and are willing to work hard over having 60 kids who may not all see the need to work hard year around as a team.
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newhc
Sophomore Member
Posts: 209
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Post by newhc on Aug 3, 2009 6:11:07 GMT -6
Coaches,
Please don't think that I'm saying a coach with less demands on the athletes will not teach proper lessons. I am very open to doing it a different way. I believe that by having intense practices are a must whether you have high demands during the summer, or less demands on them during the summer. The one thing that I can say is that football recruiting and going to college has changed drastically since I went to college (1994). I still feel that my job is to prepare that kid for his future.
I would not consider a kid who misses weight to work a slacker. I had a job my entire high school career, and my job was always around work-outs. I expect my athletes to do that. If they don't does that mean they are slackers no... but they do owe there teammates for the work that they missed.
Now that is just how I do it, and obviously there has to be a better way. If someone does it, and have been successful this way please tell me who you do it. I am all ears.
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Post by bulldogoption on Aug 3, 2009 19:01:32 GMT -6
Before I start I want to make it clear that what I'm going to say applies only to off-season conditioning. There is no excuse for missing actual practice. Can't you teach those lessons during the season? I'm 55 so I remember a time when off-season conditioning programs were much more relaxed (no 7 on 7s, limited weights). Some schools had no off-season programs. In fact, the offseason program at our school was the exception at the time. Coaches taught life lessons back then. They just had to do it from August to November. What is slacking? Is it slacking if a kid misses conditioning to have a job. Even in cases where the family doesn't need the money there are parents who feel that their kids should have a job. In their value system learning to work at a job is more important that off-season conditioning. What about kids who play other sports? I've seen coaches in this forum who consider missing weights for basketball practice to be unexcused absences. Not everybody has weightlifting classes or athletic periods during the school day. They're committed. During football season they're committed to football. During basketball season or baseball season they're committed to that sport. The objective is to win. If grinding is making it harder to do that then maybe grinding isn't the way to go at that school. I'm not talking about keeping criminals or a$$holes around to win. If a kid doesn't want to work hard but is still the better player, well, that's just life. I am truly interested in your answer..... What is different in society today than it was 30 years ago that, in your opinion, results in this divide? There's just no room any more for the kid in the grey area. Its like it has to black or white. All in or nothing. What is the difference nowadays? I hear many coaches say that winning a state championship is our goal always. Just like we hear NFL players and coaches say that anything less than the superbowl is a dissapointment. Well they get paid to play so I would suspect that is their goal. Our kids don't....... Have our expectations been warped over the last thirty years by professional sports and ESPN  ? ?? |
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Post by coachorr on Aug 4, 2009 0:00:47 GMT -6
Here is another question, "When do you want your kids to peak?" August 30th or November 15th? I have been in a few different programs and I think sometimes kids can get burned out with too much stuff in the off season, however, I have been in a program that had almost no off season program and limited 2 a days to 3 hours in the evening. I think there should be a mix in the middle somewhere.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Aug 4, 2009 4:02:07 GMT -6
I think sometimes that a kid whos not willing to pay the price for success, not coachable in the off season, is a kid who, talented or not, will quit when things get tough. Hes going to bad mouth his less talented teammates and criticize coaches. hes going to complain about what position he and everyone else play and hes probably got parents at home doing the same thing.
Hes not going to be coachable and hes not going to produce when the team is taking a tough loss. I think too that a kid who wont be part of the off season or preseason will find himself as a kid that others do not trust....
A community expects kids to be in the weight room preparing for football???
now that all seems to be accurate IN SOME CULTURES WHERE HARD WORK AND PREPARING TO WIN IS THE NORM. Its probably a norm, an expectation in big ol football states...but in some areas hockey , basketball or even soccer can be king and football is just a season, not life. NONE or VERY FEW of the players will be there in the wt room and at practice consistently.
I know that we have 6 kids that really do what I ask year round , thats about 25% of my roster. Its kind of a bell curve for us, we have a few kids that do everything we ask, we have a few that do some of what we ask and we have a few that are ghosts until the second week of practice. (when they finally turn in their physicals)- of course that number was 0 before...
I think if I can pick up another 6 that do what I ask this year then we are really in business.
I think a coach knows that in those areas finding the right buttons to change that culture is what will produce a chronic dynasty. You cant just collect your pay check and say "we let kids be kids" waiting for your golden ticket (the class with talent) .....at least I cant.
Its not a chicken or the egg thing, the hard work has to come first, you might lose a few natural talent type kids who are big dogs in your own building and you might lose two games that youd otherwise have won but over the three years or so of weights and discipline etc you should have a STRONGER CORE OF KIDS meaning 9-12 lifters vs ZERO LIFTERS that can play and make plays and are tough COACHABLE kids. They BECOME LEADERS BY EXAMPLE as the other kids can see, their parents can see the benefits of buying in... the cancers will weed themselves out of your program
now, of course this could happen too....
only skinny stu, lanky larry and weak willy lift weights and buy into the program and not one of them is even a little bit physical on the field but thats all ya got because thick theodore, fast freddy and tarzan didnt want to lift, run or do mandatory study hall so they dont play, they and their buddies all play golf instead .... and you go 1-9 a couple of seasons and get fired. I suppose at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that you TOLD AND SOLD the kids on what it takes to win but they and their parents werent buying....so you take your show elsewhere and leave knowing that you did your part and they need to look in the mirror and ask that guy holding the x box controller why he wasnt willing to work for anything.
"Football is for the chosen few"- Don Markham
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Post by blb on Aug 4, 2009 5:59:27 GMT -6
First, here is what we do: Workouts M-W-F AMs 1:30 from first Monday after school is out until practice begins (July 4 week off, state-mandated "dead week"), 7-on-7 1x/week four weeks, three-day camp end of July.
We cannot make out-of-season mandatory per our state association and I wouldn't if I could (nor would our administration support it). These are not CFB players on scholarship, football is not even favorite sport for some, and teenagers have a lot going in their lives - some they cannot control.
Do I get peeved if they don't show up? Sure I do, but I want to spend positive energy on ones who are there, not have it affect them or raise my stress level. I don't want to be mad at our team before practice even begins.
Our kids are accountable because we test before two-a-days and how they perform in part determines where they begin on depth chart - those who have chosen not to workout with team start at or near bottom.
We try to strike a healthy balance between doing what we must to be competitive every year and not burning out either kids or coaches. Generally we will get about 80% of kids who actually come out at a summer workout (we have been averaging 100-120 kids 9-12 daily this summer).
No question strength training is important in football but it is only one leg of the table. I think too many coaches emphasize it to the point it becomes an end unto itself. I'm coaching football, not a Power Lifting team, and I'm not about excluding kids from the benefits of playing HS football before the season even starts.
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