|
|
Post by grags21 on Jul 21, 2009 6:44:24 GMT -6
or league has decided to go with 1 team of 37 5th graders instead of splitting them into 2 teams of 18 and 17. we play our games against other neighboring towns. just wondering if you think it can work with 1 team. kids pay $225 get into the league. i envision problems with playing time.
|
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Jul 21, 2009 8:21:23 GMT -6
Holy smokes, Im paying $225 and my kid is on the field for a handfull of plays?
WAY too many players, 19 and 18 is plenty per team
|
|
|
|
Post by jhanawa on Jul 21, 2009 11:05:12 GMT -6
starting out with 18-19 is tough to do, ideally 23-25 is a good number to start with. If you can't get anymore out, I'd say go with one big team because you are bound to lose some kids. If you platoon and go one way you'll have a huge advantage but there probably will be complaints about playing time. If your kids play both ways, you'll have to use mass substitutions, which is a great advantage if managed right. Remember, if you had two teams you would have had two sets of starters anyway, right? Start 11 on defense, 11 on offense, and mass sub with the remaining 11-15 kids.
|
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Jul 21, 2009 11:49:17 GMT -6
Mass substitutions of non starters, even well coached up 11 year old non starters usually is a disaster.
Ive coached teams of 17-19 eleven year olds, very doable. Ive coached teams of 36 ten year olds, a real hassle. 23-24 is ideal, but what matters is how many you have now.
Smaller teams get coached up more intensely ( you have to) , the kids get to learn the game by being taught and playing both sides of the ball. It forces you to cross train a number of kids. They just get more attention from the coaching staff. Most importantly, they get to play siginifcant snaps come game day. All good things for the kids short and long term.
Parental support is key to the long term well being of any program. Kids playing a handful of plays or none at all doesnt help that dynamic. If you have minimum play rules, you are sunk.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachguy83 on Jul 21, 2009 14:48:52 GMT -6
37 is way too many. Our organizations 5th and 6th grade team had about that many last year and it was a disaster from day one. The kids don't get enough reps unless you have 6 to 8 coaches that can divide positions inton a couple of groups. Making sure kids get their playing time is a headache to the point you almost need one coach just to make sure everyone gets the minimum and you ideally want to get everyone more than just 6 to 8 plays. Mass subs can work at that age level, but you have to drill it just like anything else. Last year we used colors for the offense and letters for the defense and we drilled it anytime we scrimmaged and made it a big part of walk through. The problem with that of course is that you again have to take away practice time for it. The other problem is that I think at the 5th grade level 17-18 kids is the least you can get by with in a competitive league. If it's instructional ball less is more, but competitive ball you really need 23-25 to have a successful team. I wish you the best of luck coach.
|
|
|
|
Post by cyflcoach on Jul 21, 2009 15:06:47 GMT -6
Our league mandates a split at 32. Most teams at that age group average between 20 and 27 players for us. 30 is a very difficult number to deal with much less 37. Best of luck to you coach in trying to keep (mostly) everyone happy!
Dave Hartman
CYFL Coach
|
|
|
|
Post by mahonz on Jul 21, 2009 16:26:43 GMT -6
or league has decided to go with 1 team of 37 5th graders instead of splitting them into 2 teams of 18 and 17. we play our games against other neighboring towns. just wondering if you think it can work with 1 team. kids pay $225 get into the league. i envision problems with playing time.
Let me attempt to expand your mind a little as I was forced to do so many seasons ago while in your same situation for the first time….now I would take 40 if they would let me….they don’t.
Specialization….or 2 platoon your team. The more kids you have the closer you will get to a 100% platoon system and it does not matter if you have a 25 play minimum rule.
You have 31 kids. That is an excellent number. Split them almost in half with 15 playing defense and 17 playing offense. In the back of your mind you can still play maybe 2-4 as two-way players…probably as linemen….but only if you fall short on talent.
You need six coaches to get the system going and pull this off.
At least 60% of your talent…but maybe as high as 70%…. goes directly to the defense. You want 11 on the field at all times that are stud muffins while your offense finds their groove. The offense can hide minimums as they get their rhythm going. The defense cannot.
Offense is all about specializing anyway and getting really good at their jobs so its always a more difficult teach. Defense is all about reacting and attacking so it’s a much easier teach. So now you have 17 players on offense to fill 11 spots but you will be teaching all 17 nothing but offense for the entire season. It is amazing to watch what happens to a kid you tagged as a probable backup. Over the coarse of 6 weeks if he is learning the techniques of one position everyday and then working on those skills as a starter in the games he will get quickly get pretty darn good at his job.
The 30 -40 % of the talent that goes to the offense will play select positions per your offensive system. For me that is always Center, one OT, a QB and a TB. All other positions can be taught with just a little natural ability but that is up to you.
As your defense is off the charts good all season long because all they do is learn defense all season long…. your offense will catch up in time for your playoff run. Now you have at least 25 above average football players platooning while your opponent is stuck in youth mode playing his best 11 and struggling to play the kids he didn’t want on his team in the first place because he is lazy.
We have won many games over the years in the 4th quarter and have been accused by many for not playing our minimums. We don’t have any minimums so its always sour grapes because they lose while playing their minimums in bunches because they have to.
If for some reason you are dealt a large group of kids with two left feet then you can start working your platoon system in reverse and have a handful of two-way players to fill any immediate needs. In all of my experiences with this…mathematically….you should be OK except for linemen. They are rare so a few may have to go both ways in the really tight games. That is if you play talent on the line and are not stuck in youth mode whereas all duds pretty much get stuck on the line.
Your parents will be happy because you now have no minimums…just rotators. The D backs up itself…the O backs up itself by using rotators and teaching your talent multiple positions. Let me rephrase that…your parents that realize that their son is average will be happy…that one dad that thinks his 9 year old is the next Devon Hester may complain to no end. Id rather have him complain than the 6-9 that you will have complaining when you cant get their sons 8 measly plays during a close game because you don’t trust them.
Finally, and this is the most important point... your O and D group can be run daily...meaning every day is offensive day and everyday is defensive day. Your EDD's are now way more intense because you are pitting starters against starters always. Linebackers are working their tackling drills against running backs learning how to avoid or break tackles. Blocking drills are live instead of on bags or sleds with the d-line working on defeating blocks all at the same time. Receiver drills are against starting DB’s working on their trade. You can see how fast things come together when you finish up each practice session with 20 minutes of team...starters on starters…all coaches off the field….rapid fire plays while filming. Fix whatever’s broke during O and D the next day. Those 20 minutes alone are worth 1 full game to the players, experience wise.
Kids are kids and they will do whatever you take the time to teach them….within reason.
Something to chew on…I always cringe a bit when a coach wants 16 players because he is worried about a MPR.
Coach Mike And my follow up response when asked what I do with the nose pickers...Alex
We all have those kids that only love their football uniforms and not much else.
So what to do with them? I always create an offense that is designed to play 10 man football. Many coaches do this and then ignore them.
We use them as serious weapons and they know their roles.
These kids will play a split end position and learn how to run a perfect fade route and a perfect slant route. Then they will learn how to never drop a pass. Then they will learn how to stalk block or at least know when to get in someone's way. Then they will practice those things for the next 90 days.
What happens in the games is really cool.
The defenders realize that they are defending a creampuff before long. Then they cheat...they cant help it unless they are a creampuff also.
The next play after they cheat is a huge play or a TD scored by our creampuff. Their parents are dancing on the sidelines because on most any other team what just happened would never happen and they know it.
Also...and this is key...when the creampuff makes a big play his teammates are estatic for him for a couple of reasons...they didnt have to leave the fileld and give up any of their playing time for this to happen and they are happy that a kid that probably has no business playing football just had a great experience.
I ususally take 3 players and play them all at this position. I task them to create their own rotation so they take full ownership. They become important.
Look at it this way....
Your Grandma signs up to play for your team.
What the heck are you going to do with her? Anyone with two hands and two feet can catch a pass and / or shield a defender for a second or two without making any contact what so ever.
You... and many others say that instead....you are going to play a particular defense so Grandma can learn how to bearcrawl right into pure mayhem.
Not going to happen.
Coach Mike And my answer to a PM from a coach on how to pull it off as far as practice orginization....Hello Mike,
I read with interest your post on having a team of say 30 and playing all your kids.
I expect to have this exact situation on my hands for the first time. So, I will be a real rookie at managing this many kids.
I have been thinking about how to get everyone playing time your concept makes perfect sense. I don't want to have to find a few plays to get a MPP in and I am confident enough in my coaching staff that we can make most MPP players into a solid starting player.
So.. I am in total agreement with you conceptually. Here's my problem...
How do you break up the drills and keep the defensive players straight with the offensive one.
Is it all about having the coaches assigned to a defensive or offensive position?
Any thoughts or practice plans that you could share would be immensely helpful. I am very organized person and it sounds like you are too. I just need to know how to organize my practices so no one is standing around, etc.
Thanks Mike!
Ted
Ted
How we organize the system is pretty simple. The 6 coaches are split, 3 for the O and 3 for the D. One runs the line, one the backs/ backers and one the receivers / d-backs. All specialized groups practice together for EDD’s with their coach but against and with the opposing specalized group. All drills are position specific so the running backs are not learning how to rules block and the safeties are not learning how to rip or swim, for example. Then we all separate into O and D groups and learn the systems and practice on air. Then we finish up with team. We create an exact daily regiment so before long the kids know what they are doing before they do it.
How you organize you practice depends on your system.
Agilities – 12 minutes.
5 kickoffs / 5 kickoff returns. These are not specialized but you want defenders on KO and offensive guys on KR but we will mix this up to work best for the team. We never play minimum type players on these teams. Always the best 11. 12 minutes.
5/ punts and 5 punt returns. A punt is an offensive play and a punt return is a defensive play so these teams are specialized. 12 minutes.
5 extra point kicks if the kids are old enough. We try to start his early because a kick is worth two in our league and a run / pass one. 3 minutes.
Water break. 5 minutes.
EDD’s
Water break. 5 minutes.
O/ D Group
Water break. 5 minutes.
Team. 20 minutes
Breakdown
The only thing that varies it the amount of time spent for EDD’s and O/ D Group. If we are playing a really good team that week we will extend O/D group and shorten EDD’s so that we can set up to run scout during team rather than running our own systems. During scout team the coaches stay on the field with the backs coach always playing QB and calling the scout plays. When we run team with our own systems the coaches are always off the field so it becomes more like game day.
How you separate talent in the beginning once again depends on your systems. We always have a pre season conditioning combine the first three days of practice. Each coach is looking for talent. On the 4th day we have a little mini draft between the coaches and discuss each player in depth and how it affects the formula. Generally 60% of the best talent goes directly to the defense but always takes a few less than half of the total roster amount.
So if you have 32.
15 play defense and 17 play offense.
On defense you have 11 starters and 4 rotators. The rotators are split so that 2 play d-line, one plays linebacker, one plays d-back. Then your starting MLB will also learn the OLB positions, nose guard will learn d-tackle, corners learn the safety position so they can all back each other up.
On offense you have 11 starters with 6 rotators and why I always take the 3 least athletic kids and play them at a SE position as starters that go on their own rotation. This woks great. Now you have 3 rotators for 10 positions, two for the line and one for the backfield. Then all backs learn all back positions, one linemen learns the center position, a TE learns the FB position and so on so they all back each other up.
When an injury occurs or a kid has to miss a game…you shuffle your talent and plug in a rotator as a starter. If you fall short on talent then maybe your FB is also your MLB or some of your linemen play both ways.
Coach MikeAnd my answer to the coaches that think platooning somehow lessons the experience of playing youth football....Coaches
Our league is unique because I can coach the same core of kids for 7 seasons.
So we give each player the option to change sides of the football every August if they are a returning player.
I agree that kids should be exposed to both sides of the football yet 90% decline.
One of the QB's I coached for a couple of seasons told me...coach I get to play defense everytime I throw a pick. He was ribbing me for even asking because he threw about 1 pick every 3rd game.
Coach Mike Hope this helps. We love big rosters and so do the players agents. Never an issue.
Good Luck.
Coach Mike |
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Jul 21, 2009 17:15:49 GMT -6
MIke.
Seems like a lot to do, when the simple option is to split the team in two and let them all play on both sides of the ball.
Here, the guys that covet huge team numbers do so in the hope that the more kids they get, the chance increases that a Barry Sanders type player will be buried in their somewhere. A local team ( with no mmp rules) suited up from 40-60 kids each season on one team the last 8-10 years. With lots of kids never seeing the field in real games. They still consistently lost, to teams of 18 no cut kids LOL.
Of course they refuse to play us or even scrimmage my raggedy lot of 22-25 kids, ( 19 in 2007)
It happens.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Jul 21, 2009 17:31:42 GMT -6
Besides keeping players and parents happy, you also have to consider the coaches.
If you don't have enough coaches, you can't platoon no matter how good that would look. However, you can still have 2 "clone" teams (not squads) if you practice together.
If you do have enough coaches, see if someone wants to be head coach of a separate team or if they would rather coach platoons.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachmsl on Jul 21, 2009 19:52:29 GMT -6
We perfer smaller teams. 15 to 18 per. This year we will have 4 3rd and 4th grade teams and 3 at 5th and 6th grade. That being said, we do play in a league with multiple divisions.
|
|
|
|
Post by mahonz on Jul 22, 2009 0:54:56 GMT -6
MIke. Seems like a lot to do, when the simple option is to split the team in two and let them all play on both sides of the ball. Here, the guys that covet huge team numbers do so in the hope that the more kids they get, the chance increases that a Barry Sanders type player will be buried in their somewhere. A local team ( with no mmp rules) suited up from 40-60 kids each season on one team the last 8-10 years. With lots of kids never seeing the field in real games. They still consistently lost, to teams of 18 no cut kids LOL. Of course they refuse to play us or even scrimmage my raggedy lot of 22-25 kids, ( 19 in 2007) It happens. Dave Once I was forced into this system kicking and screaming...I quickly realized I loved it. How do you think I am able to do some of the stuff I do that has never really lent itself to youth ball. This year I will be part of a team that will have around 20. It will be different for me. Coach Mike |
|
|
|
Post by mahonz on Jul 22, 2009 0:57:54 GMT -6
Besides keeping players and parents happy, you also have to consider the coaches. If you don't have enough coaches, you can't platoon no matter how good that would look. However, you can still have 2 "clone" teams (not squads) if you practice together. If you do have enough coaches, see if someone wants to be head coach of a separate team or if they would rather coach platoons. Bob Never really had that problem finding coaches. More players... more dads that need a job. Just have to train them up a bit before and during pre season. Coach Mike |
|
|
|
Post by mahonz on Jul 22, 2009 1:02:12 GMT -6
We perfer smaller teams. 15 to 18 per. This year we will have 4 3rd and 4th grade teams and 3 at 5th and 6th grade. That being said, we do play in a league with multiple divisions. Coach Does not matter what you prefer...Coach G is about to get hit by a freight train loaded with $hit if he does not come up with a plan right now. Coach Mike |
|
|
|
Post by coachdoug on Jul 22, 2009 8:33:28 GMT -6
I agree with Mike - when we've had larger teams, we've done a ton of platooning and rotations (i.e. 4 players rotate through 3 LB positions, etc.), and we've never had too much of a problem. Of course, I prefer a smaller team (around 25 is ideal IMHO), but sometimes there aren't the resources (coaches, practice fields, equipment, etc.) to break it up into two teams. Or sometimes the decision is made without any input from us and we just have to deal with it.
Grags - Mike laid out of pretty detailed plan. It looks pretty solid to me. The only thing I would add is be sure to communicate your plan to the parents early and often so that there are no surprises. You don't want Johnny's parents, who expect him to be a 2-way star, to find out he's only playing defense at the first game. Let them know that the decision to have such a large team was not made by you, but this is how you're going to handle it - if they don't like it and want a smaller team, they should address their complaints to the board, who made the decision about the team size. Good luck to you.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Jul 22, 2009 14:33:53 GMT -6
The only thing I would add is be sure to communicate your plan to the parents early and often so that there are no surprises. You don't want Johnny's parents, who expect him to be a 2-way star, to find out he's only playing defense at the first game. Let them know that the decision to have such a large team was not made by you, but this is how you're going to handle it - if they don't like it and want a smaller team, they should address their complaints to the board, who made the decision about the team size. Is that ever a problem? Funny, because you can say, "See, this is just like what you see on TV." And it's not like if they play both ways, they'll necessarily be in the positions they wanted. Or are Johnny's parents especially savvy to youth football, and thought the rosters would be smaller? |
|
|
|
Post by coachdoug on Jul 22, 2009 15:36:36 GMT -6
Yeah, if the parents have had other children come through the youth ranks, or if their kid has been playing for any length of time, most parents figure out pretty quickly that playing both ways is pretty common at the youth level.
|
|
binny
Sophomore Member
Posts: 110
|
Post by binny on Jul 22, 2009 18:52:47 GMT -6
Two teams in my opinion, less potential for issues with the parents. Some great points were made here, hope it works out for the best.
|
|
|
|
Post by kkennedy on Jul 22, 2009 21:31:58 GMT -6
I've done it both ways. One year I had 41, we just made 2 offenses and 2 defenses and rolled with it. This team was full of experience and above average talent though. I have also done the too small roster one year and had 16. My perfect number is 25. I would think though split it and keep it fun so you don't lose any and that would be the best solution.
|
|
|
|
Post by champ93 on Jul 23, 2009 10:01:58 GMT -6
Just the opposite situation for my son's team (3rd and 4th grade).
His team has 13 players as do the other 3/4 grade teams (I think 1 has 14). 40 kids, 3 teams. I asked about combining the 3 into 2 teams of 20, but was told they could not because they have better numbers at 5/6 grade and 7/8 to have 3 teams and the league requires an equal number of teams at each level.
Sorry if I hijacked your thread.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Jul 23, 2009 12:05:42 GMT -6
the league requires an equal number of teams at each level. Something to do with travel, scheduling fields...or what? |
|
|
|
Post by champ93 on Jul 23, 2009 15:59:20 GMT -6
the league requires an equal number of teams at each level. Something to do with travel, scheduling fields...or what? I really don't know -- I assume scheduling. I see this as a huge safety issue. |
|
